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Thread: Ranger vs. Wizard
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2014-03-31, 11:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Ranger vs. Wizard
So yeah I need too somehow explain too someone how a Wizard just wins against a Ranger.
Why
A person I'm playing with says the Ranger is the end all be all, that can best the Ranger easily before level 7 and after level 14.
And that a Wizard can be completely shut down with a dead/anti magic field. Or a dispell magic
So lets be fair and make it only a pure Wizard no X prestige too lower the metamagic to 0 or some such thing
Also I may need too explain that Permanency is a spell and not metamagic...
So yeah that
So yeah may be hard I came too the playground because well Tippy and Tippy and do I really need more of an explanation
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2014-03-31, 11:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
I don't even know where to begin with this.
First off, if the ranger is an archer, Windwall. wham, bam, done. Second, if the ranger is a TWF, just treat him like a fighter.
Any number of save or die spells, battlefield control, celerity, summons, teleports will absolutely end the encounter.
As for dispel Magic and Anti-magic field, he does realize that both of those are wizard spells, not avialable to the ranger except as items? an optimized wizard will be able to easily make the caster level check for dispel magic vs. a ranger, and as far as the anti-magic field, a tinfoil cone hat solves that problem quite nicely. Also Orb of X line of spells for dealing direct damage if it's emanating directly on the ranger.
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2014-03-31, 12:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
The average battle between a high-level wizard and a high-level ranger will go like this:
*Wizard rests in his sanctum, when suddenly twenty of the magical traps and scrying sensors securing the hallways go off*
*Wizard teleports/plane shifts away, and casts some spell to protect against scrying*
*24 hours later, the ranger is attacked by three ice assassins.*
*Wizard teleports to 1 mile within the location of the assassins, and starts buffing himself.*
*Ranger dies*Creator of the LA-assignment thread.
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2014-03-31, 12:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
At all but low levels a ranger is almost as screwed as a wizard by AMF. Monster difficulty assumes that you have a level appropiate amount of magic items. No class survives a mid- to high level encounter without magic.
That aside, AMF and dead magic zones don't come up all that often in the course of normal play (or if they do your DM should have told you beforehand not to make a caster).
In every other situation the wizard is pretty much guaranteed to go first and has a pretty good chance to either kill or disable the ranger with his first spell.
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2014-03-31, 12:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
Simplest Answer: Use any half useful Conjuration spell on them, and buff yourself ahead of time. Unless he is doing Sword of the Arcane Order/Mystic Ranger cheese then it should be as simple as that. If he IS doing the above then obviously you must plan based off what sort of tactic he will use.
If he chooses to use a bow then cast Wind Wall immediately, then fling debuffs at him until he is incapacitated. My personal favorites are Grease, Web, and Bestow (Greater) Curse. If he isnt knocked out then summon some Fiendish Whatevers (Gorillas for fun) and watch as he becomes a smear on the floor.
If he intends on spamming Dispel magic then all you need to do is increase your caster level with feats or items so that the check always goes in your favor. If it is high enough level to cast antimagic field? Contingency Dimension Door out of the area of the spell, then plane shift away to the plane of your preference and watch him through a divination of your choice. wait until the field is gone, then cast spells at him till he dies.
These are siiimple ways to deal with him, and obviously there are people here with more imaginative choices. All I have stated (besides greater bestow curse) is from the SRD so screams of cheese should be met with a cheeky grin, preferably with finger pointingAvatar made by Ceika
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2014-03-31, 12:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
Well, lets focus on the basics.
After about level 5, you can simply look at the summoning lists for wizards and compare them to a ranger.
Can a level 5 ranger solo 2-3 black bears supported by 3-4 wolves? That is something like a CR 7 encounter, and they are immune to handle animal.
Can a level 7 ranger solo 2-3 dire wolves supported by 4-5d3 wolves? Again, it is an encounter +2 CR higher than his level.
And it gets worse as the levels go forward, and is about an inefficient use of spells as possible for a wizard. Mix in a few feats focused on summoning, and all those animals get MUCH stronger.
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2014-03-31, 12:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
I'm not sure how one can come to think that the Ranger stands a chance against the wizard... Barring extreme optimization for the ranger and extreme deoptimization for the wizard.
With both mild optimized I wonder at what level does the wizard and ranger need to be for the Ranger to overtake the Wizard. Then what is the maximum level of the wizard in which a level 20 ranger can take out.
I have the feeling the wizard won't hit a double digit level before a level 20 ranger can't keep up with the wizard.5e e10
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2014-03-31, 01:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
AMFs are countered by the spell Invoke Magic (LoM, 9th level spell that allows you to cast any 3rd level spell you know), or by simply walking out of the area. It is a pathetically easy AoE to avoid when used offensively, and outright suicidal if the Ranger is using it as a defense. Dead Magic Zones are purely DM Fiat, and are not a valid argument in this circumstance. If the Ranger has to rely on one of those to win, it means the DM is the actual winner and the Ranger was little more than a tool.
As for Dispel Magic, boosting your CL above 30 means the regular Dispel doesn't work. Rangers don't get access to that spell though, and any magic item that includes a Dispel Magic effect is going to be easy to counter-act (ironically, by the Wizard using Dispel Magic himself).
The Ranger's damage output is at least halved by Displacement, negated completely by Wind Wall, or ignored via Dispel Magic+Greater Ironflesh (or whatever that spell from the SC is called). At level 14 the Wizard has access to Celerity (he's had it since 4th level, but whatever), meaning all you have to do is win initiative and you can throw out a Web or Glitterdust to screw the Ranger out of his ability to fight a simple Summon Monster.
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2014-03-31, 01:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
Well, the only way I could see the ranger standing a chance would be when they're level 1-3, and even then, the wizard would win if the ranger fails one tiny saving throw.
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2014-03-31, 01:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
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2014-03-31, 01:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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2014-03-31, 02:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
I'd note that a specialist Wizard — a base option of the class — adds about the same additional power as the Mystic Ranger variant does compared to the base Ranger.
If these Ranger options are cheesy, the Wizard starts as fondue.
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2014-03-31, 02:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
The one note I'd make is that most 'X vs. Y' threads like this assume that the wizard has just prepared their spells and probably knows what to expect. They also assume that a wizard will have no issues with using all of their highest-level spells in one encounter.
A wizard who has had to prepare for a all eventualities, has fought a couple of level-appropriate encounters and is expecting trouble before he next rests might want to be wary of a ranger.
You might as well compare an un-buffed wizard to a ranger with favoured-enemy (wizard's race / sub-race) and a surprise round from sneaking up on them in their favoured terrain. Add in a suitable combat pet to give flanking, a decent TWF build using leaden blades and power attack, then assume the ranger's high dex wins them initiative even in the first round. The ranger at level 7 will be attacking 8 times before the wizard even stops being flat-footed, for a good chance of at least one critical and maybe a 75% hit rate. So... 3d6 + 21 (assuming +3 for 16 strength, + 4 for power attack each time) and 4d8 + 28 (same bonuses, also assuming the crit was on the longsword) gives an average of 31 + 46 for 77 damage and a dead wizard...
The truth is that Batman always wins; whoever ambushes their foe after preparing their strategy is the winner. It's not about wizard vs. ranger here, just fanboy vs. fanboy.
Wizards can do a lot of damage in a hurry, but then they are spent. A ranger is not quite a 'dance all day' attacker like a fighter or rogue, but a ranger at the end of a hard day of adventuring will murder a wizard in the same situation and barely break a sweat. A ranger without spells is a sub-par fighter, but a wizard reduced to their cantrips is a joke.I played: Arin of the Silver Tongue, Barri Poari
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2014-03-31, 02:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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2014-03-31, 02:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
Another way to go is looking at individual spells or common spell combinations. For the pre-7th level group, for instance, hold person can be cast from 160 ft. away and instantly wins the battle. A huge fiendish monstrous centipede summoned with summon monster III grapples at +15 and can be given the feat Snatch since the fiendish template grants it an Intelligence score high enough to gain feats. Sudden maximized shivering touch deals 18 points of Dexterity damage, no save, and can be delivered via familiar while invisible.
One wizard at level 6 can have all three of these memorized simultaneously while flying and invisible. How does a ranger survive that? And this is the wizard at the low end of his power.
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2014-03-31, 02:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
After a point the wizard is unkillable because the ranger lacks the ability to hurt something that is an astral projection. Also, the wizard can simply teleport away, so if the wizard doesn't WANT to fight right then, you are not getting more than 1 round of combat to kill him. Mix with a nice contingency (teleport when I get ambushed!) and you are a very hard to target character.
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2014-03-31, 02:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
What? A Wizard, played properly, doesn't prepare spells for specific circumstances; he prepares spells that are useful in a majority of encounters. Spells like Grease, Glitterdust, Black Tentacles, and a number of other options are just encounter-ending powerhouses that a Ranger can't hope to defend against. And the OP specified levels 7 and 14, by which time the Wizard has enough spells/day that he can cast around 2/encounter and solo the rest of it without wasting another slot. A 7th level Wizard that's reduced to his cantrips only is a Wizard that was put through a veritable gauntlet of encounters, well above the normal 4/day. A basic 7th level Wizard can handle 5/day with the right loadout (before bonus spells are even accounted for), while Specialists and Focused Specialists can handle more. At 14th, he's capable of casting upwards of 4-5 spells per encounter just for the fun of it. I'm speaking from experience here: A properly built Wizard cannot be bested by a Tier 3 or lower at most levels of the game without massive DM Fiat. The guy who prepared for a fight isn't Batman, that guy's just ready for a hunt and that's it. The Wizard is Batman, no two ways about it. Moreover, the OP's scenario doesn't mention any additional encounters beyond the Ranger. Your assumption that the Wizard is out of spells is inaccurate.
You don't need to "know" what to expect. A Wizard's spells are flexible enough that only other full casters can actually counteract a Wizard, and even then it's a close fight.
Now let's take a look at the rest of your post:
You might as well compare an un-buffed wizard to a ranger with favoured-enemy (wizard's race / sub-race) and a surprise round from sneaking up on them in their favoured terrain.
Add in a suitable combat pet to give flanking, a decent TWF build using leaden blades and power attack
then assume the ranger's high dex wins them initiative even in the first round.
The ranger at level 7 will be attacking 8 times before the wizard even stops being flat-footed
for a good chance of at least one critical and maybe a 75% hit rate. So... 3d6 + 21 (assuming +3 for 16 strength, + 4 for power attack each time) and 4d8 + 28 (same bonuses, also assuming the crit was on the longsword) gives an average of 31 + 46 for 77 damage and a dead wizard...
Prince of Cats, you don't have much experience with high-op Wizards do you?
Edit:
Wizards can do a lot of damage in a hurry, but then they are spent. A ranger is not quite a 'dance all day' attacker like a fighter or rogue, but a ranger at the end of a hard day of adventuring will murder a wizard in the same situation and barely break a sweat. A ranger without spells is a sub-par fighter, but a wizard reduced to their cantrips is a joke.Last edited by Big Fau; 2014-03-31 at 02:43 PM.
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2014-03-31, 02:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
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2014-03-31, 03:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
If he's talking about the two classes fighting each other, then it's completely irrelevant. Classes weren't designed to fight each other, they were designed to go on adventures and overcome challenges. In that regard:
Non-Wizard: "Using my investigation and information gathering expertise I've determined who the villain is and where he currently resides!"
Wizard: "I scried him out a week ago, I knew all of that instantly and I've spent all this time keeping tabs on him, learning what he has planned, and finding out all the weak points in his defenses."
Non-Wizard: "Excellent! His lair is three weeks' journey away, with but my knowledge of the local geography and my diplomatic ability with the local tribes we can cut that trip down by four days!"
Wizard: "Shut up and step onto my teleportation circle."
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2014-03-31, 03:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
Precisely; it's not a fair comparison. At the very least, a comparison of ranger vs. wizard should be after 3 level-appropriate encounters each.
Favoritism towards the Ranger.
"Leaden blades" are not codified in the rules.
Nerveskitter+Hummingbird Familiar gives the Wizard a +9 before ability scores or Improved Init. A Dex of 14 and Improved Init (a feat most Wizards will take because they can trade out Scribe Scroll for it) means the Ranger is facing down a +15 Init modifier, and has to roll hellishly high against a Wizard's Nat 1 just to stand a chance.
How are you getting 8 attacks off of TWFing at 7th level? Barring certain shenanigans (all of which involve multiclassing and liberal interpretations of certain rules), that's impossible. Even worse, you can't full attack during the Surprise round so even if the Ranger gets the drop on the Wizard the most you're getting is 4 attacks, maybe 5.
A Necropolitan Wizard is immune to Crits, and there are additional means of negating them (like a Mithral Fortification Buckler or being a Warforged with some way of negating ASF). Final, fatal flaw with your assumption: A Wizard's spells, at 7th level, have a range of Touch/40ft/170ft/680ft. At any distance beyond Close range the Wizard doesn't care about Initiative since you can't physically get close enough to Full Attack.
Prince of Cats, you don't have much experience with high-op Wizards do you?
How is that even fun? It sounds more like accountancy than a game, trying to eke out every possible bonus from every decision.Last edited by The Prince of Cats; 2014-03-31 at 03:03 PM.
I played: Arin of the Silver Tongue, Barri Poari
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2014-03-31, 03:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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2014-03-31, 03:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
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2014-03-31, 03:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
As long as the Wizard has 3 spells left in his repertoire he can end the Ranger. Even if they were all 2nd level spells. The Ranger's HP would be 75% of his max, and well within a Fiendish Monstrous Centipede's capabilities. Hell, Alter Self+Blur+False Life puts the Wizard on even grounds with the Ranger in terms of combat.
Yes, I openly admit to that. It was in response to the favouritism shown toward the wizard...
Sorry, slight misspelling: Try http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/a...eadBlades.html (I was thinking Pathfinder here)
So... My example of a vaguely-optimised ranger is countered by... a stupidly-optimised wizard? Yes, it is possible to get a wizard's init up to +15, but unlikely.
So... Your argument is that a Necropolitan Wizard with Nerveskitter and a Hummingbird Familiar who has all his spells for the day can kill an unoptimised ranger?
Nope... Never been keen on playing with or as a min-maxer... (as a DM, they never had long life-expectancies due to their tendency to stir up trouble)
How is that even fun? It sounds more like accountancy than a game, trying to eke out every possible bonus from every decision.
The fatal flaw in your argument is you are assuming it's a level playing field. It isn't; the Wizard's spells/day are more than sufficient to get through 5+ encounters/day at 7th level, and we approach the 8+ encounters/day at around 14th level.Last edited by Big Fau; 2014-03-31 at 03:23 PM.
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2014-03-31, 03:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
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2014-03-31, 03:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
That is not going to help the OP at all in his discussion if you don't identify which divinations will help and how. In general, the divination spells on the wizard spell list are worse that those found on the Cleric list. Hand waving away details about which spells to cast, when they are available, and which resources they will consume is not going to help the OP one iota.
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2014-03-31, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
That's not really what's happening here. The majority of those things are just basic features of the class that can be picked up trivially. Nerveskitter is a single 1st level slot, a hummingbird familiar only sacrifices other familiar bonuses, which are usually worse, and possibly some UMD cheese, which you would find equally problematic for your ranger in other ways, and 14 dexterity is standard. I'd say that the scribe scroll trade is going a bit out of the way, because scribe scroll is pretty strong, but it's not going out of the way by much. You're looking at a ridiculously high initiative modifier, and that's true no matter how you slice it. This is not a place where the ranger has an advantage.
Forgot about the reduced actions in a surprise round. So yes, that almost halves the damage output.
So... Your argument is that a Necropolitan Wizard with Nerveskitter and a Hummingbird Familiar who has all his spells for the day can kill an unoptimised ranger?
Nope... Never been keen on playing with or as a min-maxer... (as a DM, they never had long life-expectancies due to their tendency to stir up trouble)
How is that even fun? It sounds more like accountancy than a game, trying to eke out every possible bonus from every decision.
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2014-03-31, 03:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
Prince of Cats, look at it this way: The best option for the Ranger is to copy the Wizard via Mystic Ranger+SotAO.
So the argument isn't Ranger VS Wizard, it's Wizard VS Wizard when one Wizard is pretending to be a Ranger and the other isn't.
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2014-03-31, 05:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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2014-03-31, 05:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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2014-03-31, 05:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
I like the part where you cast Friendly Fire, and the archery ranger fails his spellcraft roll.
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