New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Page 9 of 9 FirstFirst 123456789
Results 241 to 259 of 259
  1. - Top - End - #241
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2012

    Default Re: Ranger vs. Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by animewatcha View Post
    *Stick up rear*
    1: Read the third Paragraph of Spellshatter. Which you clearly haven't been. At all.

    2: From Smite to Song does not give a class feature called Inspire courage like Harmonious Knight 1. It gives the ability to Duplicate the Inspire Courage Bardic Music ability. And as anyone who has read Complete Arcane knows, If it walks like a class feature, talks like a class feature, and smells like a class feature, it qualifies as that classfeature for all intents and purposes.
    My Homebrew: found here.
    When you Absolutely, Positively, Gotta Drop some Huge rocks, Accept NO Substitutes

    PM Me if you would like a table from my homebrew reconstructed.

    Drow avatar @ myself

  2. - Top - End - #242
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2012

    Default Re: Ranger vs. Wizard

    1. I did. It said it replaces it. Not counts as or anything of the sort. Notice other paladin sub levels in that same chapter that reference that you never gain remove disease ( as in no extra uses ). We can also use certain tradings of Turn Undead, but that would prove me correct again.

    2. If stuff worked like that, then there wouldn't be confusion for Fist of the forest's AC or stacking of ac from different stats ( think monk ). Or the chief one, turn undead swaps. As for the original saying of 'walks like a duck, talks like a duck, etc.' maybe it's a hunter trying to mimic the duck as much as possible to get a better shot at it.
    Last edited by animewatcha; 2014-04-05 at 12:56 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #243
    Troll in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Ranger vs. Wizard

    So I think I just want to put in my two cents on the matter.I'm quite sure a lot of good points have been made. So first I'd like to state the matter of linear fighter vs. quadratic wizard in this case we have the ranger who is forced into a linear progression presuming he doesn't dive into some obscure prestige class.

    The ranger has the benefit of being extremely good at what he does while working in some other areas such as having a good animal companion, tracking, stealth, and being able to work some magic. It's well put together about level ten the ranger could pick up the gear he needs like armor and a nasty enough weapon and be done with all that. A bonebow greatbow with the Distance gets him a pretty good distance with range increments he can hit some insane distances. (Math reads out to 3,000 feet at a minus 10 if he took far shot. With some spare cash due to low maintenance the ranger can pick up a few gadgets and charms to help him along some protection from scrying and some healing supplies goes a long way. On top of this the ranger can get himself huge benefits to killing something and if he's been hunting this wizard his whole life he'll just keep going human or whatever it is.

    So he'll have a huge bonus to hit the wizard and with his favored terrain he can get past any plane the wizard wants to hop off to. I like the Rangers odd of finding the wizard and taking out his familiar. I like his odds of hurting the wizard but the wizard can flee. The wizard will flee he has no reason to stay. The rangers hope is in that he can make the Wizard flee and loot his lab and such and than find the wizard again. Rinse and repeat until the ranger gives the wizard nowhere to run.

    Honestly the wizard can try to stay and fight but the ranger has some of the best saves around and could hold his own for a long while. The wizard can have some high level buffs or try to kill the ranger with high level spells he can't have both. So some eighth level spells the ranger can take, he can kill the wizards familiar as I mentioned and with that the ranger's animal companion can attack the wizard every time he casts a spell and hopefully interrupt.

    I'm not going to say the ranger will win if he does it will be a long drawn out fight and it will be a good fight.
    This is horrifying beyond anything Lovecraft ever wrote or Giger ever drew.

    MCulpa http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVopG...el_video_title
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192558





    (Screw the point)-Doomboy911

  4. - Top - End - #244
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2012

    Default Re: Ranger vs. Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by Doomboy911 View Post
    So I think I just want to put in my two cents on the matter.I'm quite sure a lot of good points have been made. So first I'd like to state the matter of linear fighter vs. quadratic wizard in this case we have the ranger who is forced into a linear progression presuming he doesn't dive into some obscure prestige class.

    The ranger has the benefit of being extremely good at what he does while working in some other areas such as having a good animal companion, tracking, stealth, and being able to work some magic. It's well put together about level ten the ranger could pick up the gear he needs like armor and a nasty enough weapon and be done with all that. A bonebow greatbow with the Distance gets him a pretty good distance with range increments he can hit some insane distances. (Math reads out to 3,000 feet at a minus 10 if he took far shot. With some spare cash due to low maintenance the ranger can pick up a few gadgets and charms to help him along some protection from scrying and some healing supplies goes a long way. On top of this the ranger can get himself huge benefits to killing something and if he's been hunting this wizard his whole life he'll just keep going human or whatever it is.

    So he'll have a huge bonus to hit the wizard and with his favored terrain he can get past any plane the wizard wants to hop off to. I like the Rangers odd of finding the wizard and taking out his familiar. I like his odds of hurting the wizard but the wizard can flee. The wizard will flee he has no reason to stay. The rangers hope is in that he can make the Wizard flee and loot his lab and such and than find the wizard again. Rinse and repeat until the ranger gives the wizard nowhere to run.

    Honestly the wizard can try to stay and fight but the ranger has some of the best saves around and could hold his own for a long while. The wizard can have some high level buffs or try to kill the ranger with high level spells he can't have both. So some eighth level spells the ranger can take, he can kill the wizards familiar as I mentioned and with that the ranger's animal companion can attack the wizard every time he casts a spell and hopefully interrupt.

    I'm not going to say the ranger will win if he does it will be a long drawn out fight and it will be a good fight.
    best case scenario a ranger will be dealing about 420 damage/standard action with a bow out to 30'

    Best case scenario a Wizard will be dealing about 3600 damage as a standard action from outside Longbow maximum range.

    Quote Originally Posted by animewatcha View Post
    1. I did. It said it replaces it. Not counts as or anything of the sort. Notice other paladin sub levels in that same chapter that reference that you never gain remove disease ( as in no extra uses ). We can also use certain tradings of Turn Undead, but that would prove me correct again.

    2. If stuff worked like that, then there wouldn't be confusion for Fist of the forest's AC or stacking of ac from different stats ( think monk ). Or the chief one, turn undead swaps. As for the original saying of 'walks like a duck, talks like a duck, etc.' maybe it's a hunter trying to mimic the duck as much as possible to get a better shot at it.
    1: Replaces the Standard Paladin's Remove disease. It does not say that it replaces the Paladin's Remove disease class feature, it specifies that it replaces the Standard paladin's remove disease.

    2: a Humanoid can not walk like a duck, and no one is going to spend several hours in a septic tank to smell like a duck. From Smite to Song gives you Bardic Music: Inspire Courage as bound to your smite evil charges. your Counter: Fist of the Forest, would in fact stack with the Monk's AC bonus because they are both untyped bonuses which only share conditions under which they stop functioning. sure RAI they are mutually exclusive, but RAW they are both untyped, and thus stack.
    Last edited by toapat; 2014-04-05 at 02:15 PM.
    My Homebrew: found here.
    When you Absolutely, Positively, Gotta Drop some Huge rocks, Accept NO Substitutes

    PM Me if you would like a table from my homebrew reconstructed.

    Drow avatar @ myself

  5. - Top - End - #245
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Killer Angel's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Lustria
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Ranger vs. Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    best case scenario a ranger will be dealing about 420 damage/standard action with a bow out to 30'

    Best case scenario a Wizard will be dealing about 3600 damage as a standard action from outside Longbow maximum range.
    If we're looking mere damage, IMO there's not so much difference between "i killed you" and "I overkilled you". Except, in the second case, there's a waste of resources...
    Last edited by Killer Angel; 2014-04-05 at 02:13 PM.
    Do I contradict myself?
    Very well then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes. (W.Whitman)


    Things that increase my self esteem:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiyanwang View Post
    Great analysis KA. I second all things you said
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeYounger View Post
    Great analysis KA, I second everything you said here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu_Bonkosi View Post
    If I have a player using Paladin in the future I will direct them to this. Good job.
    Quote Originally Posted by grimbold View Post
    THIS is proof that KA is amazing
    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    Killer Angel, you have an excellent taste in books
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Historical zombies is a fantastic idea.

  6. - Top - End - #246
    Titan in the Playground
     
    DruidGirl

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Gender
    Male2Female

    Default Re: Ranger vs. Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Angel View Post
    If we're looking mere damage, IMO there's not so much difference between "i killed you" and "I overkilled you". Except, in the second case, there's a waste of resources...
    True enough. The real issue is the other part of it, which is the far more likely worst case scenario. In it, the ranger uses his standard action to try to deal 420 damage from 30 feet out, and the wizard uses friendly fire, and the ranger dies instantly. Really, it's the likelihood of either outcome that is far more important than the damage dealt, though range is a relevant factor for that analysis.

  7. - Top - End - #247
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Norway
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Ranger vs. Wizard

    Hide life and the wizard ignores damage?
    No spoilers in this signature.

  8. - Top - End - #248
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2012

    Default Re: Ranger vs. Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Angel View Post
    If we're looking mere damage, IMO there's not so much difference between "i killed you" and "I overkilled you". Except, in the second case, there's a waste of resources...
    the problem is, the optimal ranger for ranged combat has a number of restrictions. Skirmish's 5d6 is precision damage, its very feat intensive, theres a 3 level splash into Scout, you get -2 damage vs casters because theres only 4 favored enemies. you have to move alot each round. They dont get anything from the farshot subline of archery.

    the mailman? throws a scorching ray, aimed by divination, at the ranger and kills them from outside their maximum range because the ranger doesnt have Farshot.

    Melee rangers and Wildshapers arent even that lucky.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sewercop View Post
    Hide life and the wizard ignores damage?
    i dont think that would actually allow the Wizard to win, because i dont believe that partial action was defined in 3.5
    Last edited by toapat; 2014-04-05 at 02:46 PM.
    My Homebrew: found here.
    When you Absolutely, Positively, Gotta Drop some Huge rocks, Accept NO Substitutes

    PM Me if you would like a table from my homebrew reconstructed.

    Drow avatar @ myself

  9. - Top - End - #249
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Snowbluff's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2011

    Default Re: Ranger vs. Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    i dont think that would actually allow the Wizard to win, because i dont believe that partial action was defined in 3.5
    Partial Action is a 3.0 term, IIRC. I have the 3.0 PHB. I could look it up.
    Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
    GitP Regulars as: Vestiges Spells Weapons Races Deities Feats Soulmelds/Veils
    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  10. - Top - End - #250
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jan 2012

    Default Re: Ranger vs. Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    Partial Action is a 3.0 term, IIRC. I have the 3.0 PHB. I could look it up.
    IIRC (im not getting it out from my bookshelf) its either move or standard action, but its a discarded mechanic so technically shouldnt be translated over.
    My Homebrew: found here.
    When you Absolutely, Positively, Gotta Drop some Huge rocks, Accept NO Substitutes

    PM Me if you would like a table from my homebrew reconstructed.

    Drow avatar @ myself

  11. - Top - End - #251
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    The Prince of Cats's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Milton Keynes, UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Ranger vs. Wizard

    So... What cheese is the wizard using to avoid concentration checks from damage? Because all the ranger needs to do is hide, ambush and ready an action to shoot the wizard if they try to cast or move more than 30ft.

    Attacking from surprise, you can be within whatever range you want, hold your action (even if it is only a single standard action, that's still one attack) into the first round of combat and then disrupt their magic. Conditional damage (i.e. sneak attacks from a second class) can easily push the DC so high they cannot cast.

  12. - Top - End - #252
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Snowbluff's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2011

    Default Re: Ranger vs. Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prince of Cats View Post
    So... What cheese is the wizard using to avoid concentration checks from damage? Because all the ranger needs to do is hide, ambush and ready an action to shoot the wizard if they try to cast or move more than 30ft.
    Concentration checks aren't hard to optimize. Friendly Fire would completely negate any form of damage as an immediate action.
    Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
    GitP Regulars as: Vestiges Spells Weapons Races Deities Feats Soulmelds/Veils
    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  13. - Top - End - #253
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Killer Angel's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Lustria
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Ranger vs. Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    the problem is, the optimal ranger for ranged combat has a number of restrictions. Skirmish's 5d6 is precision damage, its very feat intensive, theres a 3 level splash into Scout, you get -2 damage vs casters because theres only 4 favored enemies. you have to move alot each round. They dont get anything from the farshot subline of archery.

    the mailman? throws a scorching ray, aimed by divination, at the ranger and kills them from outside their maximum range because the ranger doesnt have Farshot.
    Oh, i wasn't debating that. I agree that, for the ranger, to be able to be in a position in which he can try to deliver those 420 dmg to the wizard, is that alone a very theoretical case...
    Do I contradict myself?
    Very well then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes. (W.Whitman)


    Things that increase my self esteem:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiyanwang View Post
    Great analysis KA. I second all things you said
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeYounger View Post
    Great analysis KA, I second everything you said here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryu_Bonkosi View Post
    If I have a player using Paladin in the future I will direct them to this. Good job.
    Quote Originally Posted by grimbold View Post
    THIS is proof that KA is amazing
    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    Killer Angel, you have an excellent taste in books
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Historical zombies is a fantastic idea.

  14. - Top - End - #254
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2011

    Default Re: Ranger vs. Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by animewatcha View Post
    @gwendol: The song of the heart from the paladin is that 'since you have inspire courage, it should count as you having bardic music for x'. Unfortunately, 'it should' is houserule territory. See the notes under 'Build stub: Paladin 20' and the 3rd level red asterisk and the variants section later in that post. The song of the heart feat requires you to have bardic music specifically.

    http://community.wizards.com/content...-topic/3407376

    Pretty much acknowledgement from toapat's own super duper source that you pretty much need houseruling to get it to work.
    Well yes, but then again you are are trying to shove an Eberron feat down a Faerunian build. Song of the Heart is hardly needed for this build to be effective anyway, so it is not much of a loss.

  15. - Top - End - #255
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2011

    Default Re: Ranger vs. Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by Doomboy911 View Post
    So he'll have a huge bonus to hit the wizard and with his favored terrain he can get past any plane the wizard wants to hop off to.
    Wait, hoe does favored terrain help the ranged travel the planes?
    Spoiler
    Show

  16. - Top - End - #256
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2011

    Default Re: Ranger vs. Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by The Prince of Cats View Post
    So... What cheese is the wizard using to avoid concentration checks from damage? Because all the ranger needs to do is hide, ambush and ready an action to shoot the wizard if they try to cast or move more than 30ft.

    Attacking from surprise, you can be within whatever range you want, hold your action (even if it is only a single standard action, that's still one attack) into the first round of combat and then disrupt their magic. Conditional damage (i.e. sneak attacks from a second class) can easily push the DC so high they cannot cast.
    Basic daily buffs, the fact that you can't ready more than one action at a time, and the fact that "I ready an action to shoot him the next time he casts a spell" means you'll be screwed by him baiting you with a casting of Featherfall.

    One attack stops one spell. Wizards can cast 2/round at the basic level (with or without Quicken there's still an impressive array of Immediate/Swift action spells), and several times that with additional tricks.

  17. - Top - End - #257
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2011

    Default Re: Ranger vs. Wizard

    There's also Abrupt Jaunt and Celerity.

    And unless you can hit ethereal/invisible, you shouldn't count on attacking them reliably to begin with.
    Last edited by Story; 2014-04-07 at 01:29 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #258
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Snowbluff's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2011

    Default Re: Ranger vs. Wizard

    Quote Originally Posted by Story View Post
    There's also Abrupt Jaunt and Celerity.
    Yep. Like I said, Friendly Fire already does a better job, especially if it's Persisted.
    And unless you can hit ethereal/invisible, you shouldn't count on attacking them reliably to begin with.
    Actually, grabbing Force Arrows is a good practice for an archer. Seeking is also very common.
    Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
    GitP Regulars as: Vestiges Spells Weapons Races Deities Feats Soulmelds/Veils
    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbluff View Post
    All gaming systems should be terribly flawed and exploitable if you want everyone to be happy with them. This allows for a wide variety of power levels for games for different levels of players.
    I dub this the Snowbluff Axiom.

  19. - Top - End - #259
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2011

    Default Re: Ranger vs. Wizard

    Yeah, Persisted Friendly Fire is crazy. But it's too cheesy for my tastes, and I thought I'd point out that there are many alternatives which would also neutralize the Ranger.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •