A good Kingdom building system?

[Raine_Sage]

So some of my friends want me to run a summer game for them. Rather than "random band of adventurers meets up to fight evil" I thought I'd like to run a themed campaign since they're a little easier to manage story wise and give the players a reason to be working together from the start. You know something like "group of traveling bards" or "knights in service to a king" or "wizards at wizarding school" albeit with some leeway on classes since 4e isn't as good with single class parties.

So I asked them if that was good and they said yes so I asked them what kind of themes they might like and after some deliberation they told me "we want to play nobilty trying to run a kingdom" which seemed pretty doable since kingmaker is a thing. The only thing is I looked at the kingmaker rules for kingdom building and they felt so... bloated. It wouldn't matter so much, since it would be something the players are mostly keeping track of, only I know my friends really wouldn't enjoy all of the bean counting. At the same time I know they'd absolutely love getting to expand the borders of their land, engage in wars, and host festivals, and form alliances to drive off threats.

So I was wondering if there were any homebrew systems for kingdom to kingdom interactions that include the above, but which leave the day to day running of the city mostly in the background? If not I'm sure I could modify the kingmaker rules, but frankly this is already going to be an ambitious undertaking.

[Laserlight]

So I was wondering if there were any homebrew systems for kingdom to kingdom interactions that include the above, but which leave the day to day running of the city mostly in the background? If not I'm sure I could modify the kingmaker rules, but frankly this is already going to be an ambitious undertaking.

REIGN Enchiridion, by Greg Stolze, has an organization-level system which you could bolt on fairly easily, or use for inspiration. Take a look at this review.

[Yakk]

REIGN is a good choice.

But if I was to build a 4e based Kingdom system, what I might do is make gold pieces into XP points for your kingdom.

I'd pick a more generic name than Kingdom -- Domain? Enterprise? Regency? I'll go with Domain.

Gold income increases roughly at a rate of x5 every 5 levels. So that would be our GP curve for our Domain.

To prevent tension between Gold and Magic, we'll break the magic item economy of 4e. Either do away with magic items completely (through one of many systems), or make them not (generally) for sale and not constructable. There may be the occasional item for sale (and it might involve an adventure to get to the same location), but not a magic item shoppe if you get the difference.

Once I had the "GP" curve for the Domain set up, I'd build a 4e-like "things gained as you level" system. Maybe there is more than one type of Domain (so we can have Martial, Arcane, Divine, Primal, Shadow and Psionic domains with different features. We could also steal from Birthright or other systems Domain "roles").

Not sure how I'd model Domain conflict/Domain actions yet.

[Raine_Sage]

Mm, we were already thinking of doing low-magic using the inherent bonus system so doing away with magic items works for me. I was also thinking of a time keeping system too, where actions taken by the kingdom cost a certain amount of days. So the DM could have a Month laid out independent of what the PCs are doing.

For example let's say all months in "magic homebrew setting" are 30 days for the sake of simplicity. The PCs want to host a festival which takes two weeks of preparation time and is therefore scheduled to take place on the 15th of that month. According to the DM's calendar they have an earthquake scheduled to happen on that day. So now the two events will happen simultaneously (maybe roll 1d10 to determine magnitude of the quake). Which could make for some interesting skill challenges.

Just a thought though I might be getting ahead of things here.

[Yakk]

How central do you want the Kingdom to be?

If you want to keep the focus on the adventuring, what I'd do is have your Enterprises generate complications and opportunities -- which are basically the same thing.

Enterprises for the most part "self maintain" -- their income pays for their operations. Expanding an enterprise costs money.

---

I'd replace Inherit Bonuses with Enterprise Bonuses. A Cleric who has a Church gains an Enhancement bonus to (attacks and damage and defences) from their Church's level. Same thing for a Fighter's Barony, or Rogue's trade empire.

Further boon-like bonuses can exist. The Fighter's Barony might attract a swordmaster who trains the Fighter in a Grandmaster skill (and goes on to captain his guard). Alternatively, someone might discover a fountain of youth near the Barony, inspiring the PCs to go on a quest to find the spot and drink of the magical fluid (granting some other boon).

That fountain of youth would be an Opportunity. Raiders hitting a trade route a complication, some wandering gnomes wanting to settle an opportunity, etc.

Opportunities and Complications would have levels based around the Domain or Enterprise's level. Rewards would also be commensurate.

[Raine_Sage]

Oh I like that. The biggest thing is that this is a more roleplay focused group (which I probably should have mentioned. my bad) so what I'm looking for also is chances for events in the kingdom to impact their characters. Probably mostly through how they interact with NPC run kingdoms (or in the event they want to run more than one PC kingdom, maybe with two players to a kingdom as a King/Queen pair.

[Yakk]

Instead of 1 kingdom per player, I'd go for the players being related nobility in one Kingdom. Possibly with one PC being either the heir or the king.

The 2nd & 3rd in line for the Kingdom should be NPCs. This both gives you the ability to swap in new heirs if the PC drops out, reduces inter-party rivalry, and opens up the possibility that they are future foes/rivals/allies.

If there is a PC Divine power source, I'd make Divine investiture a rare thing, and that as a chosen of the god they are the head of the local Church. Their power is imbued into them by the use of an ancient relic (at the cathedral), and if they die the imbued power returns to the relic, and a new champion can be chosen. The Church, of course, has administrative elders as well.

A PC arcane power source should have a wizard's tower and apprentices and other workers of magic. It is a rare person who can cast spells as fast as the PC in question -- ritual magic is most of civilizations magic. Most of the members of the wizard's tower are ritualists, and a few have mastered a handful of spells: more common are imbued wands that let them cast a single combat spell after bonding to them.

For Primal, the same sort of thing -- being granted this kind of power by the Primal spirits is a rare and special thing. Maybe they are the chosen emissary of one of the peoples who live within the kingdom (haven sworn allegiance to the kingdom in ancient days), but effectively adjacent to it (in an area unsuited, either by terrain or by treaty, to traditional farm-and-castle based settlements).

They may all be of the royal blood, or maybe not.

[Laserlight]

Oh I like that. The biggest thing is that this is a more roleplay focused group (which I probably should have mentioned. my bad) so what I'm looking for also is chances for events in the kingdom to impact their characters. Probably mostly through how they interact with NPC run kingdoms (or in the event they want to run more than one PC kingdom, maybe with two players to a kingdom as a King/Queen pair.

You might take a trick from The Sun Never Sets, which was intended to model the British Empire: all the players are cabinet members of the main kingdom, and each player also runs his own "NPC province". Thus, Alice, Bob and Charlie all vote on British decisions; Alice also runs Ashantiland, Bob is in charge of Baluchistan, and Charlie handles China. When it's time to vote on "where do we send troops", of course Alice is going to give speeches to Parliament that the regiments are desperately needed in the Far East...

[Beleriphon]

You could deal with the "kingdom" as a massive artifact using the rules for aligning with the artifact's goals as a place to start. That way you at least have something the players should be familiar with the basic idea.

Pour Example:

Dukedom of Kingdom

Ruler: Somebody?

Actions that increase your connection:

Helping the populace: +3
Murderhoboing orcs: +1
Having an appropriate alignment: +1

Actions taht decrease your connection:
Murderhoboing the populace: -3
Having an inappropriate alignment: -1
Being a d-bag to the populace: -1

Score:

Score	Result
-20 or below	The popluace has formented active rebellion against you.
-10 to -19	The people actively hate you and don't work very hard. Halve your tax income.
-1 to -9	The people don't like you very much, and say mean things in the streets, but only when you're not around. Reduce incoming by one quarter.
0 to 5	You're okay. People don't work that hard to help you out, but hey at leat your get 100% of what they owe you.
6 to 10	You're well liked. Increase kingdome income by 10%