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Thread: Proof that They Win
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2014-04-03, 05:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Proof that They Win
Okay. So. We're facing down a god-killing abomination who seems to be quite real, several very, very powerful wizards, and at least three divine entities who want a piece of the action. The fate of the world does seem to hang in the balance pretty substantially. And I wouldn't put it past Rich to give some sort of subversion of the typical Saved the World ending. But I do think this story is going to end well. And I have more proof than the Oracle's (shaky) prophecy that Elan will get a happy ending.
Check out the last panel on this comic. Unless there's something I don't know about goblin lifespans or flash-forwards in time, I'm pretty sure this last panel is many years in the future. And it would be tough to claim it as a retcon before the story got serious, since this was definitely after the Snarl was introduced.
Maybe everyone had already agreed on this. Maybe not. Just bringing it up. Thoughts?
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2014-04-03, 05:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: Proof that They Win
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2014-04-03, 05:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2014
Re: Proof that They Win
Alternatively, it could just mean that Redcloak was successful in his plan to bring about an era of prosperity for Goblinkind. Thus, not only was the goblin able to create such a business, he was also able to attract a wealth of potential clientele from amongst many monsters that were previously oppressed. Several of whom can be seen entering the hut. Nice idea though!
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2014-04-03, 05:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2008
Re: Proof that They Win
Or instead of being a flash-forward, it could just be Goblin Dan's daydream.
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2014-04-03, 06:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2012
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- Here or there
Re: Proof that They Win
Or it could be a marketing gimmick/eccentric antic. A little theater make up, a fake beard, and presto! Instant age-class upgrade. He doesn't even need to change his clothes. Plus, he can get away with all those zany old man antics.
Although, looking at this does make me realize something. Either Dan never left the valley (and thus his BBQ Hut is within the valley, as are the rest of his staff and patrons, and the staff evidently don't leave either), or else he doesn't actually remember how he ended up with the hydra (how he got it out of the valley with the huge 30+headed reptile is another topic entirely). Considering the difference in ground color and mountain color, it could be that the hut is not in the same location that the hydra originally was at. Perhaps he dons a costume to hand-wave the memory loss thing. Then he can make the story as exciting as he wants each time, and everyone will just shrug and blame the story differences on old age. That, and he may be trying to put off any potential gold-diggers.
Personally, I kinda like the idea of this being a disguise. It sort of makes it funnier.
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2014-04-03, 06:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: Proof that They Win
I seem to recall that Rich said in the WXP commentary that this was indeed part of the purpose of that scene - to serve, along with Elan's prophecy, as a way of telling the readers "it might get a little scary but everything's going to work out in the end".
(For a certain value of work out, anyway.)
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2014-04-03, 06:51 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
Re: Proof that They Win
It's also been mentioned that the Oracle's future existence also points to the idea that the world won't be Unmade.
Well that and the minor issue that Rich is already on record that (paraphrasing) he's not writing a grimdark story.Last edited by Porthos; 2014-04-03 at 06:54 PM.
Concluded: The Stick Awards II: Second Edition
Ongoing: OOTS by Page Count
Coming Soon: OOTS by Final Post Count II: The Post Counts Always Chart Twice
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2014-04-03, 07:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: Proof that They Win
So, while the goblin lifespan is indeed quite short (barring a few notable exceptions), it is long enough that, if that scene is indeed a flashforward, it is an indicator that the world will not be destroyed, at least not any time soon. Now, this doesn't necessarily mean that we win. It could, after all, be showing how the goblins do well. Also, as pointed out, it may just be gimmick done by goblin Dan. I don't think I ever realized this before, so thanks for pointing it out!
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2014-04-03, 08:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: Proof that They Win
I think a final-panel throwaway joke is far down the list of reasons the world is not going to be destroyed.
But then, I also think there's no good reason to call the Oracle's prophecy for Elan "shaky," so what do I know?Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2014-04-04, 12:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
Re: Proof that They Win
Actually, the whole Oots was the story of how Dan made his first million gold pieces, and the strip ended with 326. Everything that came after is just bonus material.
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2014-04-04, 12:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2012
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- Czech Republic
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Re: Proof that They Win
That panel is good news to goblins (there is a happy successful elder goblin and there is a civilization where 1M gold is a meaningful wealth). It doesn't say much about the PCs or PC races.
There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.
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2014-04-04, 01:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Proof that They Win
It's not that far into the future. The goblins are already eating hydraburders in the feast of founding Gobbotopia.
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2014-04-04, 01:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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Re: Proof that They Win
Really?
You're going to use a throw-away joke from the final panel of a strip over something the author has specifically said was intended to assure people the strip wasn't going to end with the entire world being destroyed? Are you sure about that? :P
Not quite. What he said was that the prophesies were meant to assure people that the story would ultimately not end with the destruction of the world (Elan's) but that bad things were going to happen before it was done (Durkon's). He didn't mention Goblin Dan at all, IIRCLast edited by FujinAkari; 2014-04-04 at 01:45 AM.
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English isn't my primary language, so please let me know if something I'm saying doesn't make sense!Continuation of ThePhantasm's awesometacular post
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2014-04-04, 10:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
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Re: Proof that They Win
It could also be wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff
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Sorry for my accent.
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2014-04-04, 06:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
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Re: Proof that They Win
That was my other thought. But since there were no dots leading into a bubbly-bordered panel, we can conclusively prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was not a daydream, obviously. (sarcasm)
But it is a reason, yes?
And as for your other point:
Yes, but I wouldn't for a second take Elan's prophecy as a guarantee. Knowing the trickery of wordplay - especially with prophecies, wishes, and similar supernatural requests - I was very wary of the phrasing. "Will this story have a happy ending" is very, very different from "will this story end happily," "will the end of this story be happy," etc.
For all we know, their indefinite happy ending could very well have been Girard's epic-level "Happy Ending" illusion. Now, I think that would be a really crummy way to do it, but I've learned not to discount anything in OotS until I've proven it conclusively impossible, and usually not even then.
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2014-04-04, 06:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: Proof that They Win
They do not get eaten by the god-killing abomination at this time.
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2014-04-04, 06:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: Proof that They Win
Last edited by Kish; 2014-04-04 at 07:06 PM.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2014-04-04, 09:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2013
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2014-04-04, 09:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
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2014-04-04, 10:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: Proof that They Win
I also wish to disassociate myself from this "we". You may consider the prophecy "shaky", but you may also choose to consider Redcloak Lawful Neutral. One isn't really that much more a rejection of the in-story facts and the Giant's stated intent then the other.
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2014-04-04, 11:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
Re: Proof that They Win
Concluded: The Stick Awards II: Second Edition
Ongoing: OOTS by Page Count
Coming Soon: OOTS by Final Post Count II: The Post Counts Always Chart Twice
Coming Later: The Stick Awards III: The Search for More Votes
__________________________
No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style - Jhereg Proverb
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2014-04-05, 06:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2009
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Re: Proof that They Win
Nope. That was an older goblin hobo, who killed the original goblin, took his clothes, had a bath and, after feeding on the hydra for a week, understood that there was business there.
It's the Evil Goblinoid Dream: upward social mobility achieved through hard work, preceded by murder & theft.Last edited by Vinyadan; 2014-04-05 at 06:20 AM.
Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
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2014-04-05, 08:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Proof that They Win
I have rapidly turned this conversation in the wrong direction, and for that I'm sorry.
My first mistake was in using the w word for anything, ever, in analysis. I've seen arguments break out about that, and I don't want to be that guy. Please forgive my default turn of phrase.
My second must have been in somehow painting this as a serious issue. I'm on board with all of you, especially since reading all of the wonderful comments by Rich which I'd never seen before. I don't *truly* expect him to end the world in this story, and my most solid thesis statement is not some throwaway joke located some ways back in the 300s of the archive. I just meant to add another point of evidence to the list, maybe point out an interesting fact to people who may have forgotten it from first read-through.
I will stand by my own personal opinion that any of the Oracle's prophecies are dangerous to accept without any further evidence. I do think that Elan's prophecy, with some large and annoying leaps in logic, could have been fulfilled in the illusion (after all, that strip's title was "Happy Ending"). But like I said earlier, I would pretty much never expect Rich to do that, as it would be infuriatingly pseudo-literal and, for the most part, simply bad writing.
They're kissing again. Do we have to read the kissing parts?Last edited by Ionathus; 2014-04-05 at 08:38 AM. Reason: Added response
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2014-04-06, 11:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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2014-04-06, 01:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Proof that They Win
yes, that panel is proof that the world will not be unmade. every few months someone make a post about that. you're not the first to notice it.
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2014-04-06, 02:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2014
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- The Great Frozen North
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Re: Proof that They Win
Don't worry, guys, it was an Argall We. :P
Seriously, though, there's a few things that are definitive proof of a happy ending, but what's really great about OOTS is that it's still gripping; we want to know HOW and to what extent, even though we know there'll be happy grins when the story ends.3DS Friend Code: 3067-5674-0852. Currently running: Emerald.
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2014-04-07, 11:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Proof that They Win
Besides the Oracle's prophecy to Elan, there's one more reason why I'm sure the story will have a happy ending. In an interview, Rich says
Originally Posted by Rich