An Epic Problem! Fighting What Can't Be Harmed or Hindered

[HolyCouncilMagi]

So, something absolutely horrible happened, and I basically have no idea how to fix it.

In order to defend possibly the prime material plane or possibly even more than that, I need to find away to stop the rampage of something that I quite literally can not harm or hinder in any way.

Yeah, I think the optimization-savvy people here know exactly what I'm talking about already. I need to fight someone else's Aleax. And it does not help that it has Epic-level Druid casting. No, that doesn't help me at all.

In theory, I'm not alone in this endeavor, but in practice, aside from the now soul-destroyed Druid, I'm the only one like an Epic caster in the party. That is, I'm an Epic Psion. We're all level 26.

I have Epic Manifesting, which I imagine will factor heavily into any possible solution, and you can mention any power I might use since, being an Epic level Psion, I can probably get my hands on any particular power I might meed. I can't really help you with the Aleax's list, since I can only assume the DM will have it prepare its own unique list from the Druid list. What I can do is, if you give me a day or two, give you the Druid's list of feats, of which the only ones I already know of are Improved Elemental Wild Shape and Epic Spellcasting.

This is the predicament in which I sit. This Aleax didn't, like, dissipate after it killed its original and it's gonna destroy everything if I can't do something. I can't even bring back the Druid, what with the soul destruction, so I need to do this myself... Somehow. Can you guys offer a poor soul some help?

[JeminiZero]

Oddly enough, there was this thread a short while ago, about a Druid who was going up against his own Aleax. This wouldn't happen to be the same Druid?

A lot depends on how the DM inteprets the "cannot harm or hinder" line. In its most extreme form, it means that even an Antimagic Field won't slow him down.

Ideal solution would be to restore the Druid's soul. Details on how it was destroyed might be useful here.

Crazy solution involves creating one or more Simulacrum/Ice Assassin of the Aleax under your command. They would inherit its indestructability, and can at least keep it occupied nearly indefinitely.

[HolyCouncilMagi]

I saw that thread! But no, that thread and this one have no relation to the same game.

Anyway, I don't really know the details about the soul destruction, because the DM was (I assume) going off the Aleax page in Book of Exalted Deeds which mentions the god destroying the person's soul and preventing their resurrection.

And yes, the DM is going under the interpretation that something like an Antimagic Field or a Wall of Force wouldn't slow it down. Theoretically, I could shape the landscape to mess with it, but that stopped being a long-term solution 20ish levels ago and is now utterly meaningless.

I like the Ice Assassin idea, but the issue is a bit deeper than that. It may be immune to the real Aleax's (that seems oxymoronic) abilities, but the issue isn't "it will attack the nearest thing it sees and I need to slow it down", because I could stave it off possibly forever if that were the case. It's more like, "I can't do much of anything to stop or slow him, and he knows it so he will ignore me in favor of causing mass destruction and death to the peoples who can't defend themselves the way I can".

Maybe if I could surround him in a pocket space that in no way prevents him from walking out so as to qualify as not harming or hindering him, then use some cheesily-DC-reduced Epic spell to cause the Prime Material Plane to switch places with a Sphere of Annihilation or something equally dangerous but natural in some other plane? Might damage the Prime, but that's a problem I ought to be able to fix. Seems like a really shaky plan though.

Do you guys have any other ideas?

[Vizzerdrix]

The Druid should have been given the opportunity to bargain for its soul. Did he not? Was it an unfair bargain? If the bargain wasn't offered then make a knowledge Religion check and get Cas (Frostburn) Involved. This sort of thing is his bread and butter.

Also "intended victim" can be read as who ever it is currently attacking.

ANd I don't see any mention of it's equipment being covered by it's protection. Break its toys.

[JeminiZero]

I don't suppose you could try negotiating the Deity that sent the Aleax, since it should presumably still be under his/her/its command?

Anyway, I don't really know the details about the soul destruction, because the DM was (I assume) going off the Aleax page in Book of Exalted Deeds which mentions the god destroying the person's soul and preventing their resurrection.

Well, the text in BoED says:

If the character does not pay, his spirit is destroyed, and the character cannot be returned to life by any means.

If Epic Psionics can't restore the soul, maybe you can try returning the Druid as an undead.

[Nettlekid]

You're an Epic-level Psion. I think you can handle this. First off, have the DM briefly explain to you exactly what it means to harm or hinder the Aleax. If another caster throws up a Wall of Force, can the Aleax just walk right through it unhindered? What about a Wall of Stone? What about nonmagical, naturally formed stone found in the world? There has to be a cutoff point somewhere, and that's where you should focus. Since the Aleax entry specifies "attacks" then any kind of support/crowd control that isn't offensive in nature ought to be effective.

Psions are infamous for being able to completely shatter the action economy, so that's one thing you have going for you. I assume you also have a PP recharge method, which means you can outpace the Aleax's spells (provided it has to use any, which is iffy). If you could get a sample of Flux Slime (which radiates an Antimagic Field) and trap the Aleax with it, then it's as weak as the nonmagical Druid it's stuck as. Locking it underground with said Flux Slime would probably take it out of commission for the foreseeable future.

Or, of course, go the classic "Psions-will-use-this-as-a-part-of-any-trick" route: Quintessence. Repeatedly casting Temporal Acceleration will give you all the time you need, provided you have a very effective PP regeneration trick. You could also prepare it beforehand and just use one manifestation of Temporal Acceleration to implement it. The former would be better though. In either case, just build up a tub of Quintessence and pour it around the Aleax. This isn't an attack, it's terrain, and the Aleax won't be immune to it. Now it's trapped out of time forever. Maybe combine this with the previous suggestion for a double lockdown.

My last suggestion (which was my first before I thought of those other two) is that if the DM rules you absolutely cannot affect or impede the Aleax in any way...get rid of everything else. You're an EPIC LEVEL PSION. You literally move mountains with your mind. Get an Epic Power up, or creative chains of nonepic powers, to actually move all of the Material Plane elsewhere. Manifest Genesis and move the Material Plane there, chunk by chunk? Or to the Astral Plane or something infinite that won't be worried about a new planet. Anything's preferable to complete annihilation. Lock down all planar rifts in the space that once was the Material Plane so the Aleax can't follow. Maybe even bring the world to the plane of the deity who sent the Aleax to annoy it enough to tell the Aleax to stop.

On that note, try reasoning with the deity? It sent the Aleax to kill the Druid for some reason, a good reason, and now that the Druid is dead the deity should be appeased. If all else fails, get the deity to stop it.

[Doorhandle]

It's says you can't harm it, right? ...Can you aid it?

Perhaps you could buff it;'s wisdom or intelligence and the get into a polite conversation with ait and simply ASK it not to destroy the world. A few buffing spells on yourself to make you a diplomancer is also a good call, or simply find the prettiest bard you can find and work from there.

Not sure if a helm of opposite alignment would help or make everything infinitely worse...

Another option would be to give it a buff that also hinders it in some way, like permanent rage, or iron flesh if it's on the sea floor. Environmental damage in general might work.

Perhaps use a wish, miracle or similar spell to make yourself INTO the druid it's mimicking and work from there. Or time travel bull**** to summon the druid form the past.

Finally, consider turning it against itself: in addition to the ice assassins above, you could consider usings mirrors of opposition against it. If you're feeling REALLY ballsy, make an aleax OF THAT ALEAX.

[The Corinthian]

My thought was to research an epic psionic Power, along the lines of Psychic Chirurgery and/or Metamorphosis, to turn yourself into an exact duplicate of the destroyed Druid, from the soul on up. (Getting sufficiently complete knowledge of the Druid to do this might require its own specialized epic Clairsentience Powers -or you might be able to do it with Metafaculty.) This raises various identity issues, but if the DM will agree that you are metaphysically identical to the soul-destroyed Druid, you should be able to affect the Aleax. Then, with a little help from your friends, you should be able to defeat it.

Unfortunately, in order to be complete, this transformation will probably have to be one-way. And once you're a completely different person, you might not have any incentive to transform back into the epic Psion you used to be. You can write a letter to your future self and give it to your most persuasive party member, in the hopes that he'll be able to convince you to go back, or you can learn to love life as a tree-hugger.

[Eldariel]

You might not be able to resurrect the Druid, but you should be able to get close. Can you create a clone of him? Ice Assassin of him instead of the Aleax might work; worth a try. It doesn't require his clone, just some hair or whatever of him. There are also psionic powers that are chiefly personal but perhaps you can extend it to others through some means. Yeah, Undeath is also an option; a mindless Undead version of him would still probably be him and you might be able to e.g. take over his mindless, undead body with True Mind Switch and fight the Aleax from there.

Can you travel back in time? This spell could solve all your problems and while there isn't a psionic counterpart, it could be reasonably assumed you could research something along those lines (or at least something that allows you to alter the past a bit remotely), given Psionics already has a penchant for screwing with time (Time Hop, Time Regression, Temporal Acceleration, etc.). Might you be able to get a past Forced Dream to go off to return to the point before the Druid was slain? You don't happen to have a Time Hopped Psi Crystal or something that could make that happen, do you? Anyways, the Druid is easily the simplest way to solve this problem; he can actually defeat the Aleax when given enough support. If you could even get like a Fission duplicate of him or something to use, you'd be much better off already. If you could clone him somehow to make clones close enough to him that they could affect the Aleax (again, Ice Assassin might or might not work; it's worth a try, and there's always the option of researching an epic version), there's an approach that could defeat it relatively easily. Can you get an epic Temporal Regression that's augmentable? Pay a few tens of thousands of XP to regress time back to the point.

How immune Aleaxes are to the terrain is also not clear. Maybe a convenient mountain or two falling on it could harm it? Aleax's Singular Enemy only refers to attacks. So, sufficiently hostile terrain, perhaps with the aid of a Dead Magic Zone could plausibly harm it. It's probably warded against energy damage so lava or such would be a waste of time; you already said you can easily manipulate entire continents so earthquake, crush it in the land or something and hope it happens to lack spells to get out of such a bind. It's your best option for directly harming it aside from bringing in deities or such for more options to circumvent the Aleax. Hell, you have True Creation. A meteor shower from the orbit isn't an attack, right? Sure, there'll be some collateral damage, probably nothing important. The plan is great.

Could you perhaps trick it into a Gate of some kind? Get it to a plane where the environment is harmful to it. If it stumbles into the Sigil and starts wrecking places (one of the rules of Sigil being you may not harm the locale), I'm pretty sure the Lady herself will deal with it. If it stumbles in the Outlands it'd at least be denied all magic. Now you just need some way to attack it through other places while still retaining your powers and it would probably lack the environmental immunities that would allow you to probably destroy it. Note also, this presents a golden opportunity to steal Singular Enemy to yourself through e.g. Illithid Savant. Aleaxes are gold mines for useful abilities if you can become one yourself. Indeed, in such a case you could probably hold it at bay indefinitely.


Just few angles you could explore. With Metafaculty, Hypercognition and your already-massive skills and probable access to divine discussion partners with appropriate domains (and thus domain sense among others), it shouldn't be terribly difficult to explore their plausibility, difficulty and indeed, to create new alternatives.

[Rostenoc]

Overall, it sounds like your DM lost their sense of internal consistency within the gameworld. An aleax is a divine agent of vengeance sent from a diety to exact retribution upon a single person; why is it concerned with the rest of creation after its goal has been achieved? At this point, the diety itself might as well just manifest and wreck house, if that was the goal to begin with.

Doesn't really help with the problem, sorry, it just bothers me when DMs decide to frak with players at the expense of the game.

[Eldariel]

Overall, it sounds like your DM lost their sense of internal consistency within the gameworld. An aleax is a divine agent of vengeance sent from a diety to exact retribution upon a single person; why is it concerned with the rest of creation after its goal has been achieved? At this point, the diety itself might as well just manifest and wreck house, if that was the goal to begin with.

Doesn't really help with the problem, sorry, it just bothers me when DMs decide to frak with players at the expense of the game.

It sounds like something happened when the Druid died and the Aleax broke free and is going berserk.

[Captnq]

Hrm... You know. Next time I play I'll throw this at my players and I'm sure they'll come up with something.

Oh wait. Holy crap, you need to quote this stuff for people so we don't have to hunt down the book to read what you are talking about. This is EASY.

Singular Enemy (Ex): Although the aleax is visible to all, only its intended victim can harm it. Attacks made by other creatures are rebuffed, dealing no damage and hindering the aleax in no way.

Really? You can't see the solution?

Step 1: Wish for the body of the Aleax's intended victim.
Step 2: Skin him and then sharpen his bones into spears.
Step 3: Arm the fighters with spears. Turn his skin into ward cestus' and have every member of the party put them over their fists.
Step 4: Enchant WSAs and Buff with gay abandon. A monk with a necklace of natural attacks is your best bet.
Step 5: Stab/punch him to death the Aleax with THE INTENDED VICTIM.

Hell, the intended victim is a druid. He'd be all into the recycle/reduce/reuse crap anyways. Seriously. You are totally over thinking this.

SIDE NOTE: Is it disturbing my go-to solution is skin a man's corpse?

[Zweisteine]

Find another god, one who has a great interest in the material plane not being decimated, and convince them to create and aleax of the aleax.

But the new aleax will probably go crazy too.


Maybe you could trick it into attacking the city of Sigil. Lady of Pain steps in; problem solved.

[Captnq]

Find another god, one who has a great interest in the material plane not being decimated, and convince them to create and aleax of the aleax.

Wouldn't work. The second Aleax cannot harm the first one, but the first one can murder the second one. Nice try, however.

[Eldariel]

Hrm... You know. Next time I play I'll throw this at my players and I'm sure they'll come up with something.

Oh wait. Holy crap, you need to quote this stuff for people so we don't have to hunt down the book to read what you are talking about. This is EASY.

Singular Enemy (Ex): Although the aleax is visible to all, only its intended victim can harm it. Attacks made by other creatures are rebuffed, dealing no damage and hindering the aleax in no way.

Really? You can't see the solution?

Step 1: Wish for the body of the Aleax's intended victim.
Step 2: Skin him and then sharpen his bones into spears.
Step 3: Arm the fighters with spears. Turn his skin into ward cestus' and have every member of the party put them over their fists.
Step 4: Enchant WSAs and Buff with gay abandon. A monk with a necklace of natural attacks is your best bet.
Step 5: Stab/punch him to death the Aleax with THE INTENDED VICTIM.

Hell, the intended victim is a druid. He'd be all into the recycle/reduce/reuse crap anyways. Seriously. You are totally over thinking this.

SIDE NOTE: Is it disturbing my go-to solution is skin a man's corpse?

The principal issue here, and the main reason I didn't go into too much depth, is that you're dealing with an Aleax of an Epic Druid. Which means it has Epic Spellcasting among other things. Which makes the plan "hit it with sticks" quite a bit more complicated. Though you could, I suppose, argue that spells on his person can still be targeted, of course. If that's the case, it's somewhat more doable but if the DM rules the Aleax's immunity to cover its buffs, it's probably going to be immortal in half a dozen ways.

All this means much more information is needed on the Druid, which epic spells he has and what's his buff routine in order to figure out if weapon attacks are even a plausible option. This, incidentally, has the same issues as using terrain; a Druid can very well just be immune to having a mountain thrown at him since damage immunity is childs' play on epic (and energy immunity is all but certain). Of course, even if it is doable there's still the matter of getting within melee range of an epic caster and winning a fight where he's free to use his magic against you but you're restricted against him.

[JeminiZero]

Yeah, Undeath is also an option; a mindless Undead version of him would still probably be him and you might be able to e.g. take over his mindless, undead body with True Mind Switch and fight the Aleax from there.

As an alternative to mind switching, perhaps try Fusion. So the two of you become one, and your epic Psion should count as the original Druid for the purposes of damaging the Aleax. (Technically Fusion only works with a living corporeal creature, but you can just polymorph the mindless undead Druid corpse into one).

Or if you are willing to take the risk, bring the Druid back as a Dread Warrior under your command. He should be *almost* as powerful as original, and ready to go for round two against the Aleax... although since he lost the LAST time, he might need a bit of help. In which case you can make a Simulacrum of the Aleax, and have the Dread Warrior use fusion (probably from a Power Stone) with the Simulacrum.

[HaikenEdge]

Maybe a roundabout way is to commit deicide on the deity who originally made the Aleax and steal their divine ranks?

Would opening a one-way Gate to a Genesis demiplane with no exits work?

[Mnemnosyne]

Create an epic spell psionic power specifically designed to overcome the Aleax's immunity? I mean, any specific thing can be overcome by something more specific specifically overcoming it. So you research and create an epic spell specifically designed to overcome this particular Aleax's immunity. Or, a spell that essentially allows you to be counted, for all purposes, as another creature. Especially reasonable if it requires part of that creature as a material component, or focus. Cast that spell, then you count as the druid and can harm the Aleax.

[Urpriest]

Technically, it's only Attacks that cannot harm or hinder the Aleax. So Forcecage and the like should be perfectly fine.

That said, if your DM is interpreting it more broadly...what are the Aleax's goals? Can you plausibly convince yourself that imprisoning it for all eternity in some manner will help it out? If your attacks are helping it (by, say, giving it an existence free from worry or something) then they aren't harming or hindering it and should be fine.

[enderlord99]

Hrm... You know. Next time I play I'll throw this at my players and I'm sure they'll come up with something.

Oh wait. Holy crap, you need to quote this stuff for people so we don't have to hunt down the book to read what you are talking about. This is EASY.

Singular Enemy (Ex): Although the aleax is visible to all, only its intended victim can harm it. Attacks made by other creatures are rebuffed, dealing no damage and hindering the aleax in no way.

Really? You can't see the solution?

Step 1: Wish for the body of the Aleax's intended victim.
Step 2: Skin him and then sharpen his bones into spears.
Step 3: Arm the fighters with spears. Turn his skin into ward cestus' and have every member of the party put them over their fists.
Step 4: Enchant WSAs and Buff with gay abandon. A monk with a necklace of natural attacks is your best bet.
Step 5: Stab/punch him to death the Aleax with THE INTENDED VICTIM.

Hell, the intended victim is a druid. He'd be all into the recycle/reduce/reuse crap anyways. Seriously. You are totally over thinking this.

SIDE NOTE: Is it disturbing my go-to solution is skin a man's corpse?

Captnq, you are a genius.

[Inevitability]

Step 1: Wish for the body of the Aleax's intended victim.
Step 2: Skin him and then sharpen his bones into spears.
Step 3: Arm the fighters with spears. Turn his skin into ward cestus' and have every member of the party put them over their fists.
Step 4: Enchant WSAs and Buff with gay abandon. A monk with a necklace of natural attacks is your best bet.
Step 5: Stab/punch him to death the Aleax with THE INTENDED VICTIM.

Can I sig this BEST PLAN EVAR?

[atemu1234]

Well, this all depends... how far are you willing to go? I mean, my recommendation is to use reality revision to teleport the aleax to his deity, then reality revise yourself to teleport back to where you were. Then the god is stuck with his crazy aleax, and will have to deal with it. Plus, if you're lucky, you can take your druid's soul with you. Not sure how that would work, but hey, the DM will either go with it or be a jerk.

[SouthpawSoldier]

Can I sig this BEST PLAN EVAR?

Me three? Don't care if it works or not; this was poetry.

[Thealtruistorc]

As I recall, something similar happened in Naruto once, in which there was a rampaging foe who was unable to be harmed. I think I could adapt their solution to your problem.

1. Create the mother of all pit traps.
2. Line the sides with metal, so the aleax can't stone shape out.
3. Lure the aleax onto said trap
4. Drop the mother of all manhole covers on him.
5. Once he falls, drop a landslide on him, burying him miles beneath the earth under a metal manhole cover and tons of rock.
6. Seal the trap with the grandmother of all manhole covers. With luck, you will never see the aleax again.

[Rubik]

The singular enemy ability does say that the aleax's "intended victim" can harm it. It seems like this particular aleax intends to victimize the entire Material Plane (and thus, the multiverse). This gives any- and everyone in this multiverse free rein to destroy it, if they have the power to do so.

Could you pull it into the Plane of Mirrors and let the aleax's double kill it? Can you pull it into a demiplane filled with naturally occurring quintessence? I had other ideas, but other people aleax'd me on them.

[malonkey1]

Hrm... You know. Next time I play I'll throw this at my players and I'm sure they'll come up with something.

Oh wait. Holy crap, you need to quote this stuff for people so we don't have to hunt down the book to read what you are talking about. This is EASY.

Singular Enemy (Ex): Although the aleax is visible to all, only its intended victim can harm it. Attacks made by other creatures are rebuffed, dealing no damage and hindering the aleax in no way.

Really? You can't see the solution?

Step 1: Wish for the body of the Aleax's intended victim.
Step 2: Skin him and then sharpen his bones into spears.
Step 3: Develop an epic power designed to launch the spears telekinetically for massive damage.

Hell, the intended victim is a druid. He'd be all into the recycle/reduce/reuse crap anyways. Seriously. You are totally over thinking this.

SIDE NOTE: Is it disturbing awesome my go-to solution is skin a man's corpse?

Fixed that for you.

[HolyCouncilMagi]

That's a good point about the intended victim, but... Wait... Since it's ignoring me on account of my not being able to do anything and the fact that I'm fully capable of defending myself from it, doesn't that mean I'm pretty much the only one not qualified as an intended victim?

... God freaking Schrodinger's Druid.

[Rubik]

That's a good point about the intended victim, but... Wait... Since it's ignoring me on account of my not being able to do anything and the fact that I'm fully capable of defending myself from it, doesn't that mean I'm pretty much the only one not qualified as an intended victim?

... God freaking Schrodinger's Druid.

The destruction of the Material Plane and all the life therein (which should be against a druid's oaths, leading to an epic ex-druid, aleax or not) will lead to your destruction, as the Great Wheel essentially revolves around it, due to how alignments and afterlives work. Remove the hub, and the spokes will fly out and self-destruct. If that happens, you'll be a victim, too.

[cakellene]

How can it even have gone crazy? Doesn't it automatically cease to exist once the druid dies?

[Necroticplague]

Use hyercognition in character as an excuse to ask out of character what the heck the DM intends for you to do. Rules are being bent against you on several levels to create this problem (interpretation of 'attack' (in game terms, an attack is something that requires an attack roll),this thing not becoming an ex-druid for very blatantly not revering nature (given how its current actions are going to destroy large portions of it), so chances are the DM has a certain way he intends for you to get out of this, with anything else failing.