DM who thinks they're fun but aren't

[prufock]

Tell your brother that you are going to DM a game starting next session, and invite him to make his own character. Run the game how you and the other players want it run and show him how it's done.

[PaucaTerrorem]

It's your brother, right? Fist to the tender spot.

Tell your brother that you are going to DM a game starting next session, and invite him to make his own character. Run the game how you and the other players want it run and show him how it's done.

or this.

[atemu1234]

Honestly, make a clean breast of your concerns to him. Then, if he doesn't shape up, find a new DM. Even if he's your brother (hell, especially if he's your brother) he has no right to pigeonhole your group as low-level losers. Tell him you guys want to level up. If he doesn't listen to his entire group complaining, quit. If he wants to be a part of your group, tell him to roll a PC while one of you shows him how the game's supposed to be played.

[AdamantlyD20]

I appreciate all the feedback guys, I have tried asking him if he is bored because i thought maybe he wants to play a character, He even rolled up a character who was very very unoptimized. I usually help the other players build characters by offering suggestions for feats and such based on what kind of character they describe to me, so our characters are at least partially optimized, but if you put our characters into a tier, I'd say we've never pushed past tier 3 or low tier 2 because the DM doesn't have as much system mastery as myself and wouldn't know what to do if we made a demiplane or started using the wish or miracle spell.

He built his character completely for fluff and when it came to social encounters or combat failed pretty hard. So I made some different enemies on the fly so he could at least be somewhat competent and fun.

He first complained because he didn't like how he couldn't make traps. So I let him make a disable device roll and an intelligence check for his character to figure out how my traps worked and let him use my traps against enemies. He seemed to enjoy watching them get incinerated

He's the same DM who helped our newbie player build a nonworking level 7 cleric with 12 wisdom as his highest stat and won't give him stat boosting items. I told him he should let the player re-roll his stats.

His response "rules don't matter he'll be fine" ... I told him he couldn't cast anything higher than a 2nd level spell - ever... He said "nah he can cast whatever his level says he can cast" needless to say, the player constantly missed nearly every enemy (everything had high will saves) with every attempt to cast a spell for the next few sessions until (behind the DM's back) I crafted and introduced a custom magic item that increased his Wisdom, Constitution, and spellcraft by 1 every three levels. He started doing better and didn't feel like complete garbage.

[HaikenEdge]

Seems to me this is a matter of the DM not respecting the game system or the other players involved in the game; a lack of system mastery isn't a big problem if the DM is willing to learn the system, but your brother seems like a GM who would prefer the hand-waving inherent of free-form roleplay to a system with actual hard-and-fast rules like 3.5. This might simply be a problem of the personality not matching the system.

[atemu1234]

I appreciate all the feedback guys, I have tried asking him if he is bored because i thought maybe he wants to play a character, He even rolled up a character who was very very unoptimized. I usually help the other players build characters by offering suggestions for feats and such based on what kind of character they describe to me, so our characters are at least partially optimized, but if you put our characters into a tier, I'd say we've never pushed past tier 3 or low tier 2 because the DM doesn't have as much system mastery as myself and wouldn't know what to do if we made a demiplane or started using the wish or miracle spell.

He built his character completely for fluff and when it came to social encounters or combat failed pretty hard. So I made some different enemies on the fly so he could at least be somewhat competent and fun.

He first complained because he didn't like how he couldn't make traps. So I let him make a disable device roll and an intelligence check for his character to figure out how my traps worked and let him use my traps against enemies. He seemed to enjoy watching them get incinerated

He's the same DM who helped our newbie player build a nonworking level 7 cleric with 12 wisdom as his highest stat and won't give him stat boosting items. I told him he should let the player re-roll his stats.

His response "rules don't matter he'll be fine" ... I told him he couldn't cast anything higher than a 2nd level spell - ever... He said "nah he can cast whatever his level says he can cast" needless to say, the player constantly missed nearly every enemy (everything had high will saves) with every attempt to cast a spell for the next few sessions until (behind the DM's back) I crafted and introduced a custom magic item that increased his Wisdom, Constitution, and spellcraft by 1 every three levels. He started doing better and didn't feel like complete garbage.

Your DM is trash. Don't let him DM, don't let him control the group, and don't just bend the rules to suit him. If he's that bad and adamantly wants to be bad, then tell him to either reroll a better character or stop playing. He isn't a DM at this point. He's just a kid using you people in his masturbatory fantasy of being a god.

[Kioras]

The DM is not respecting the system, and is powering his custom changes by a lack of system mastery. He is just going into escalating numbers while reseting the game every few sessions to regain control.

Just do what I did in the last game. Apologize, say your just not having fun in the game any more. You want to play a game where you have more player agency, the rule stay true to the system, consistent session to session and the character's feel more powerful in the setting. Your prefered style and what he wants to do as a DM just don't mix.

Then switch over to play some board games or video games for a few sessions and then see if someone else can take over DM'n duties.

You already talked to him, he won't change and you have been suffering long enough. Don't try to be passive aggressive, or really confront him. Just appologize and end the game, play something else.

[danzibr]

I suggest taking up the DM mantle yourself and showing him how it ought to be done.

[Larkas]

Its partially this. And partially trying to have a cohesive story. He keeps jumping systems and all the players dislike having to start over and we can't rebuild the same or similar character with every system, causing the tie to the character (in and out of character) to be non-existent at best. To 2/3 of the group, high level of play is where the game just begins to be fun. The other player is a first timer, and the DM has the view that he can change the rules in the middle of the game and that rules are just guidelines. If you kill an enemy that he didn't build properly, guess what? Now there's 12 more of them and its their turn to attack. He doesn't follow the rules of the game, he never allows players to have proper Wealth by level, he turns everything into an arms race. (Example: player takes weapon focus, and has a strength of 18, and a BAB of 2. They get +7 to their attack. So he decides hmm I think an AC of 22-24 for a CR2-4 monster is a good idea. Also lets give it +8 to attacks. The player's AC is maybe 16-19. The enemy has over 50% chance to hit the player while the players only have 25% or less chance to hit the enemy) so we take feats or use class features or buffs to try to even the odds... And so he buffs the enemies.... there is a table of average attack bonuses, HP, AC and other things for creatures of each challenge rating. He never follows it. Therefore any mathematical chance of success is skewed

I appreciate all the feedback guys, I have tried asking him if he is bored because i thought maybe he wants to play a character, He even rolled up a character who was very very unoptimized. I usually help the other players build characters by offering suggestions for feats and such based on what kind of character they describe to me, so our characters are at least partially optimized, but if you put our characters into a tier, I'd say we've never pushed past tier 3 or low tier 2 because the DM doesn't have as much system mastery as myself and wouldn't know what to do if we made a demiplane or started using the wish or miracle spell.

He built his character completely for fluff and when it came to social encounters or combat failed pretty hard. So I made some different enemies on the fly so he could at least be somewhat competent and fun.

He first complained because he didn't like how he couldn't make traps. So I let him make a disable device roll and an intelligence check for his character to figure out how my traps worked and let him use my traps against enemies. He seemed to enjoy watching them get incinerated

He's the same DM who helped our newbie player build a nonworking level 7 cleric with 12 wisdom as his highest stat and won't give him stat boosting items. I told him he should let the player re-roll his stats.

His response "rules don't matter he'll be fine" ... I told him he couldn't cast anything higher than a 2nd level spell - ever... He said "nah he can cast whatever his level says he can cast" needless to say, the player constantly missed nearly every enemy (everything had high will saves) with every attempt to cast a spell for the next few sessions until (behind the DM's back) I crafted and introduced a custom magic item that increased his Wisdom, Constitution, and spellcraft by 1 every three levels. He started doing better and didn't feel like complete garbage.

Wow... Your brother isn't playing D&D. He's playing the kind of make-believe games we played when we were kids, where a "I throw a huge rock over your head!" met the response of "But I have a shield that specifically protects me from huge rocks, so I'll be fine!". He's just fooling himself and his players by saying you're playing a D&D game. You're clearly not.

Rules-wise, to be a DM in a D&D game, you need at least two things: at least some passing knowledge of the rules (though even the willingness to learn the rules might do) and the will to enforce those rules. As you get more rules-savvy, you might decide some rules must be changed, but to do that and not break the game, you must really know what you're doing. Unfortunately, from what you have shown us, your brother doesn't have any knowledge of, or love for, the game's rules. If that's really true, he unfortunately doesn't have what it takes to be a DM.

Even if that's not the answer you're looking for, it might be better for the whole group if you swapped DMs.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

My big question would be "Why is your brother part of your group?" What got him involved initially?

Is he younger or older than you and the rest of the group?

An unoptimised fluffy character isn't a bad thing in itself, but combined with the ruleset changes as a DM and wanting to keep things at low level where there's less complexity to worry about, I'm wondering whether he either doesn't understand the rules but doesn't want to show it (and the plusses on top of plusses are just another way to maintain the illusion), doesn't want to understand them, or he feels that a lot of his life is out of his control, but his DM'ing is something that is within his power.

I'd suggest breaking out a boardgame for your next session (say Settlers of Catan if you have it), that you can sit around for a few hours and just chew the fat with each other, and incidentally see what happens. Does he just sit there, saying nothing, and do the minimum on his turn, rarely interacting with the rest of the group even where it would benefit him to do so, or does he engage with people and take his place in the game, or does he act more bullishly and try and run everything? And how does he react at the end? Does he crow about it if he wins, sulk if he loses, or just discuss incidents from the game in a neutral manner?

It might also allow you to bring up the groups desired playing style in a less confrontational atmosphere, rather than 3 people telling him to sit down and do what they want - ff you hadn't already had the "group sit down" with him (which could have left him feeling bullied), I'd have suggested you do it alone, without the rest of the group, and tell him exactly what you think - not covering what the rest of the group may have said, but only your personal feelings.

Then, if he says the rest of the group haven't said anything, tell him to ask them to speak to him alone, and tell them to do so as well.

And to be honest, an occasional boardgame session, just to break things up and keep it fresh, isn't a bad idea for any group anyway.

[Yawgmoth]

Just because he's your brother doesn't mean you have to play with him. Kick him out of the group and make sure he knows exactly why he is no longer welcome. Tell him he can return if and only if he can demonstrate that he knows that he was wrong and can demonstrate a working body of the knowledge and skills a DM needs (e.g. the basic rules of 3.5, how to handle when PCs get to the level where they can actually affect the world beyond maybe killing a kobold, etc.)

[atemu1234]

I'd never let the guy be DM again. Maybe- just maybe- let him become a PC. If- and only if- he chose to listen to the new DM and the group. Never give this guy free reign EVER AGAIN. He had his chance. Now give someone else a shot.

[Taffimai]

I want to add my support to the "buy him a module" idea. That allows you to pick what you want to play, without making the task too daunting for him. My personal guess would be that his behaviour stems from a) short attention span and b) insecurity over his mechanical shortcomings.

One thing I don't understand though, is why you (as a group) don't just say "no" once in a while, especially with regards to the sudden system changes. This, at least, should always be something that is agreed upon between all participants of the game. If everyone agrees on playing football, not even the referee gets to use a baseball bat.

Another idea is to make him read this thread.

[Mootsmcboots]

He's your brother? I'm trying to imagine how this would go with my brother as this DM.

He wouldn't listen to reason just as your brother, so first step, put on the foamy Incredible Hulk fist gloves and keep punching until arms get sore

Burn something of his.

He sprays my TP with pepper spray.

I tell him he's adopted(He's not), and that he was hatched not born(Debatable)

He tells my wife I wear womens underwear.

We cry and hug and forgive one another. If he doesn't change or see reason, return to step one.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

It does seem he has no mastery of the system. I have adhd and i sometimes do exactly the same as he does i get this new idea and i write it down and we run a one shot or two before returning to the main campaign or we might find the one shot is just more fun and run that awhile.

But i second or third the idea of you taking over

[killem2]

People who DM like what you have said, are the same as the writers on shows like Dexter (seasons 5 and on). They can't write good compelling stories anymore so they just a shift in emotional response by physically altering events with out any tie in to why it changed or how.

DMs like this, really should be using adventure paths for the sanity of their players.

Some players need rail roading, some do not, but there are quite a lot of DMs that could use rail roading.

[Snails]

... starting you off at level one again every few sessions is a good way to have fun.

We expectations that are so easy, why not give it a try as DM?

[Metahuman1]

Ah.

Your brother isn't good at DMing.

No. I don't mean, he sucks. I mean, he does not possess the ability to run higher then 6th level because he simply cannot deal with the lack of control. He's not DMing for you to have fun. He's DMing so HE can have fun. He pretends that you are having fun so in his mind he can continue to be a God in his own little world.

Here. Let me break it down:


He keeps you weak so you have no power to actually have any far reaching effect on the game.


He actually believes this. However, his real reason for doing it is to force you to make new, low level characters that he can easily bully and never has to worry about your PCs destroying his NPCs that he has created to live out his personal fantasies.


And he made up a billion excuses and didn't listen to you. Because it isn't about you. It's about him and his little universe. He has a problem.


Again, this is wish fufillment, not DMing. The NPC in question is his personal "Gary Sue". He wanted you all to be really impressed with how "cool" the NPC/DM was.


And I bet you aren't the only one. Does he have any friends? Is he popular? Does anyone talk to him about anything but gaming? Does he ever have anyone to talk to about his personal problems? Any problems at home? Parents? Does he have a girlfriend?


Yes. He does. It's all part of his personal problems and how they are manifesting in the game. You see, he wants to be awesome too. So awesome he can't take the risk of playing badly, so he has to be in control. So he DMs.

How do I know all this? I was there. I've done everything he did, and worse.

Look, I don't do this much, or... ever. But if he has an account, tell him PM me and I'll chat with him. Sounds like he needs to vent. I doubt he'll want to, but I'm offering.

This.

Look, here's what I think you need to do.

Step 1: If you guys have any friends, family, extra, that he might whine too/get upset with and try to recruit to his side in this, sit them down and explain, in detail, the problems, and why they are problems.

Step 2: Coordinate the following with the other players.

Tell him your issues, as a group, and that if he doesn't knock it off, promptly, you guys are gonna stop gaming with him. Then, when he doesn't knock it off, first time he tries to tell you to restart at level 1 or change systems or what ever, do a hand signal to the other two to indicate it's time, and get up, in unison, and pack your things quickly and silently with out saying a word. Get to the door way, with out explaining, and then and only then explain again that he blew his last chance, your done, and that's it, and leave, as a group. Go to someone elses house with out telling him who's, or a game shop, or something. (Work out were this little fall back location is to be in advance.)

Step 3: Run the game with out him, or with him as a PC if he promises to cut the crap as a PC.


I've dealt with a DM that does stuff like this too. When Ruby Knight Vindicator DMM: Persist users with metric tones of turn undead attempts, God Wizards and a Half Minotaur Water Orc Spirit Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 2/Warblade X and a Factotum X/Swordsage 2 with the Dark Creature Template and built toward Int and Dex running every aspect of the character can't make it through one dungeon on there own, there is a problem.

Same guy, when I took over as a DM, knowing most of the different group I was running for were rookies, asked to use a Samurai Fix and I let him. He hit me with it while I was trying to juggle about 6 other things so I didn't look to closely at it. It was the Frank And K's Tome Samurai, which is designed to leave Tome of Battle classes in the dust, so Ranger/scouts, bards, paladins and sorcerer's just learning the system are not gonna be able to compete and anything I did that might have a chance of challenging him would wipe the rest of the party right out, and he knew that and did it because he knew the latter wasn't a viable option to me at the time. Consider this a cautionary tail.

[atemu1234]

Don't let this guy DM. Period. Let someone else DM, or DM yourself. He shouldn't have this level of control over your group.