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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Low-Magic Wizard [PEACH]

    For socializing: diplomacy, bluff, gather information, intimidate are good options that add to versatility.

    A cold reading ability could be cool. Hinges on spot/bluff and intimidate for a fear effect or even as strong as a "rebuke" effect on a single target.

    For reckon: gather info can be used, an ability granting a network of informants or the capacity to see trough an animal (as the clarivoyance spell) there could be a charisma penalty associated with that (with a save to avoid): stay in the bird/wolf/croc for too long and you will have worn down your sense of self.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deophaun View Post
    Player: I'll use a classic ploy. "Help! Guards! He's having a seizure!"
    DM: You're the only one in the prison.
    Player: I'm very convincing.
    DM: And there are no guards.
    Player: But there's masonry.
    DM: It's not even animate, let alone sentient.
    Player: That's ok. I'll take the penalty.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Low-Magic Wizard [PEACH]

    So, let's start by strongly suggesting you make the formatting look nicer.

    At the very least, bold or italicize the class feature names. You can bold, italicize, resize- take advantage of that. It makes reading the class so much easier.

    You may want to insure that you make it clear that the Major Arcana are hiding in the spoiler.

    As far as emulating the features of wizards such as Gandalf or Merlin, it does quite well, though it lacks some of the social power of Gandalf (As most of Tolkien's wizards were basically Angels sent to guide mortals- it shows too, since one of Gandalf's most notable accomplishments was that he took a bunch of dissenting people and forged them into a powerful fellowship that took down a dark lord of power).

    I feel that they could stand to have a few more class features, since they get eight empty levels. I'd suggest some sort of cultivation of natural allies (Ala Giant Eagles?) or some sort of ally morale bonus to things (Representing the guiding wisdom of the Wizard, or similar).
    On a quest to marry Asmodeus, lord of the Nine Hells, or die trying.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Low-Magic Wizard [PEACH]

    As far as metallurgical things go, here are some ideas of mine:

    1) Use of lighter materials, with the possibility of making things like finessable two-handed swords
    2) Use of harder materials
    3) Electroplating
    4) Anodizing/coloring
    5) Creating corrosion-resistant materials
    6) Pattern welding
    Last edited by VoxRationis; 2014-05-07 at 12:03 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Low-Magic Wizard [PEACH]

    I was recently asked whether Rebuke Monster was meant to be usable as often as a cleric's Turn Undead or at will and I found myself unable to determine which would be a better option. I have a slight bias against the whole "I ran out of usage" thing which plagues 3.5 abilities, but at will usage might be a little abusable on the scale of a single encounter. What do you guys think?

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    jiriku's Avatar

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    Default Re: Low-Magic Wizard [PEACH]

    At-will usage should probably be avoided, both because a powerful wizard can then steamroll through arbitrarily large numbers of aberrations and because having a limited-use resource lets you later create feats or other class features that also consume the resource.

    I'd concur with other posters here. You have a class that struggles to find any way to contribute effectively to typical D&D encounters, whether combat or otherwise. Your chief problem is that the greater arcana abilities are very weak or are hamstrung by significant costs and restrictions. This wizard isn't really any good at anything other than knowing stuff, and he's not appreciably better at knowing things than an NPC expert with the Knowledge Devotion feat would be.

    To correct this, you should decide what the wizard is supposed to be good at, and build various ways for him to contribute to a variety of situations by doing the thing he's good at. You might find it useful to borrow from some other sources. Do you have access to the Dungeonscape book? The factotum class described in Dungeonscape is a really nice execution of the archetype of a character who knows a little magic, but solves most problems by using his wits and skill. Might be worth a look.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Low-Magic Wizard [PEACH]

    I don't have Dungeonscape.

    I'm wondering what you mean by "typical" D&D encounters. If you mean 400-hp dragons, I'd agree. But one of my caveats was that the class isn't meant for the baseline D&D experience.
    What would you suggest to make the class more effective in combat, given that they are supposed to primarily have a support role?
    In any case, what do you think of an ability that lets the wizard use minor environmental cues and Knowledge checks to determine what sort of a creature lives in a place?

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    TheLonelyScribe's Avatar

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    Default Re: Low-Magic Wizard [PEACH]

    I think I commented with something like this before, but if a) you want a magic system different from the baseline D&D system, and b) you want a gaming style different from the baseline D&D playing style - it really seems like you should consider not playing D&D. Burning Wheel is recommended for Tolkien-Style games, Ars Magica if you want a medieval system that really gets into the art of magic, Dungeon World if you just want to bash heads in and have a good time - but it really looks to me as if you want a system that is not D&D.

    If you do stick to D&D, I'd consider giving them a big ability they can use a lot of the time. At the moment they have a large collection of useful peripheries, but there's nothing to point to which says 'this is what makes the class strong'. It's not necessary, but it might help with the bits-and-pieces feel the class has at the moment. Maybe a feature that expands upon the Arcana that lets them use skills in extraordinary ways? Performance to fascinate, Sense Motive/Bluff to cold read, Climb to fly etc. That might expand upon the Gandalf idea to fit it more into the kinds of fictions that are appropriate for D&D (but it does sound to me as if you want to be playing Burning Wheel).

    Other stuff: Does this dress make me look like a DRAGON? Rules for Glamerweaving

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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Low-Magic Wizard [PEACH]

    Okay, the next person who recommends I change to a different system is going to find a fabulous new career as a spy satellite when I boot them into low Earth orbit.
    (And please, don't anyone get upset when I say that; a threat which is patently impossible is a rhetorical device to express frustration, not an actual threat.)

    The thing is, I LIKE D&D. I like the basic idea of it; I like the rules-heavy simulationist tendency of the game (rules-light systems make me wretch and I've stopped playing with the group at my school largely because of their preferences for such things); I like the comparative simplicity of the d20 and d% method of determining success and failure, rather than trying to figure out fistfuls of exploding d10s or cartfuls of d6s; I like the basic structure of the skill and combat mechanics. I just think they could use improvement, and I like the more "classic" sword-and-sorcery feel.

    Your Climb to fly idea is just about the opposite of what I am hoping to accomplish with this class. I'm trying to build someone with only a handful of magical abilities, who keeps largely to the rules of the real world, but who seems magical to someone with a medieval knowledge base.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    jiriku's Avatar

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    Default Re: Low-Magic Wizard [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by VoxRationis View Post
    I'm wondering what you mean by "typical" D&D encounters.
    I'd consider this to be a relatively complete list of the types of encounters I often create in my games. I've omitted "kill monsters" from the list because, well, that's an obvious one.

    • investigate a mystery
    • sneak undetected past some guards
    • protect a site or a noncombatant NPC
    • bargain with an NPC (who may be unfriendly) to acquire favors or aid
    • steal something
    • uncover the plans or activities of a prominent opponent
    • assassinate a specific enemy figure
    • travel quickly to a location before a deadline passes
    • navigate a trackless wilderness
    • find someone who's trying to remain hidden
    • do two or three or four of the above things at once



    Quote Originally Posted by VoxRationis View Post
    What would you suggest to make the class more effective in combat, given that they are supposed to primarily have a support role?
    Well, given that two of the wizards you cited as inspiration are at least halfway decent swordsmen, I think a flavor-appropriate change might be to buff the combat fundamentals. For example:

    Considering their lack of physical conditioning, wizards are supernaturally capable in a fight and unusually difficult to kill.
    • Gains d8 hit die
    • Gains Charisma bonus as a deflection bonus to Armor Class.


    A wizard rarely adventures without a magic staff or ancient elven blade, and can wield magical weapons with deftness and precision.
    • Gains proficiency with magical weapons, regardless of type.
    • Gains Medium base attack progression


    Note that the wizard is in no danger of overshadowing the other fighting classes here. He still lacks armor, combat feats, or any direct offensive or defensive class features (such as sneak attack or uncanny dodge), and his ability score points are likely to be concentrated on Intelligence and Charisma. However, these buffs make him a little more capable of holding his own in a fight; he can probably hold off a mook or two by himself now.

    Further, your typical wizard is often characterized by his leadership ability. Even kings defer to them. Perhaps you could expand the Rebuke ability into a menu of auras he can activate that represent giving advice or instruction to his allies or using intimidation tactics against his foes. Whether it be crying "fly you fools!" to give allies a bonus to move speed, or "you shall not pass!" to daze or push back his foes, the wizard exerts influence through his strong personality. If you have the Miniatures Handbook, you could look at the marshal class for some ideas about inspirational auras.


    Quote Originally Posted by VoxRationis View Post
    In any case, what do you think of an ability that lets the wizard use minor environmental cues and Knowledge checks to determine what sort of a creature lives in a place?
    I would say that this is already a built-in function of the Knowledge and Survival skills. However, you're thinking in the right direction. Using obscure knowledge in innovative ways is a classic trick of the wizard. Also, wizards are commonly regarded with suspicion, and seen as tricky and untrustworthy. Perhaps Bluff is a good class skill; you never know when a wizard is concealing the truth from you.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2014-06-19 at 01:11 AM.
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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Low-Magic Wizard [PEACH]

    Thanks! That list is really helpful. When I have time, I'll try to run through it and see how many I can make a wizard check off.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Low-Magic Wizard [PEACH]

    I think a good stepping point is looking at what sort of stuff you are trying to emulate as "magical" effects. Looking at the key abilites of schools might provide you an idea of the skills and stuff needed to reproduce them:

    Abjuration: social stuff (intimidate for the most part), apotropaic items (vermin repellent, alchemical charms, save boosting concoctions) though perhaps mostly magical school

    Conjuration: Produce items and creatures out of nothing: sleight of hand to produce items, alchemical items (shapesand, chaos flasks) and finely crafted items (unfolding tools + misdirection)

    Divination: Know stuff that one isn't supposed to know: Social tricks (Sense Motive, Spot, Listen + gather info and network of spies), Lore and knowledge checks, literacy might go a long way in certain societies

    Enchantment: Control people and crowds: social engineering (bluff, diplomacy), and chemical mind affecting (poisons, drugs, pheromones)

    Evocation: Produce damaging effects: alchemical tricks (alch fire, flashpowder, smoke, et cetera)

    Illusion: Misdirect/Make falsehood seem real: alchemical tricks (smokes, sparkles, flares, mild altering drugs or poisons), sleight of hand, bluff

    Necromancy: Animate the dead/Create undead thralls/Kill the living: knowledge checks to make bodies move with electricity, poisons that put bodies into zombie-like states, or sleep, or comas, medicine.

    Transmutation: Turn things into others/Bonuses: Sleight of hand, hide, disguise, or Alchemical tricks (for bonuses etc) or diplomacy (see fanatical entry)

    "spells" that make water potable, or devices (such as gliders) that allow some flight, or quick-change artistry are all sorta good effects
    Last edited by Gildedragon; 2014-06-19 at 03:35 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deophaun View Post
    Player: I'll use a classic ploy. "Help! Guards! He's having a seizure!"
    DM: You're the only one in the prison.
    Player: I'm very convincing.
    DM: And there are no guards.
    Player: But there's masonry.
    DM: It's not even animate, let alone sentient.
    Player: That's ok. I'll take the penalty.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    jiriku's Avatar

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    Default Re: Low-Magic Wizard [PEACH]

    Some good suggestions there for class skills. Maybe the wizard could also get higher than normal benefit from alchemical items, since he knows how to get the best use out of them. Perhaps he might get more damage dice, longer durations, higher saving throw DCs, or larger areas of effect. Have you read Terry Brooks' Sword of Shannara? The druid Allanon in that book is a great example of what you're trying to do. Allanon is reputedly a powerful wizard, but most of his power consists of having friends in high places, possessing great charisma and presence, and knowing old secrets, like the weaknesses of a monster, the location of a secret entrance, or the hidden path to a magical location. In combat he mostly fights with a melee weapon or throws Batman-style flash-bang pellets, although he does occasionally let loose a powerful spell when circumstances are dire.

    That gives me another thought. Wizards almost universally seem to have the respect and cooperation of powerful rulers. Perhaps the wizard has a class feature that grants a bonus on Diplomacy checks (or all Charisma-based skill checks) with members of the noble and royal castes. They might even have a similar penalty for interacting with common folk, who usually mistrust wizards. PC wizards will find it easy to get a king in their pocket, but may get an unfriendly welcome from the innkeeper who doesn't want to see a wizardly duel break out in his inn if any of the wizard's enemies come to call.

    If you have some of the books that include magical locations in them, perhaps the wizard can automatically learn the path to one of them at each level, or at specific levels, provided he has x ranks in an appropriate knowledge skill. The magical location supplies the power, but the wizard is the only one who knows where it is and how it's activated, and perhaps the only one who can use it when the party gets there.
    Last edited by jiriku; 2014-06-19 at 08:02 AM.
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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Low-Magic Wizard [PEACH]

    Sorry for the delay; I've been busy. I still don't have the time necessary to implement all the fantastic suggestions made so far, but I'll put out a new Greater Arcana for critiquing.

    Metallurgical Mastery
    Independent Study DC: 25 (varies)
    Copying DC: 15 (varies)
    Application: Craft (blacksmithing) (DC varies); an alchemist's lab is required in addition to the normal forge or other workstation.
    Effect: You create a metal weapon with up to two of the following effects, increasing the Craft DC by 5 (and crafting cost by 100 gp) to do so:
    • -An incredibly hard, sharp edge bypasses damage reduction as though it were magic.

    • -The weapon is light as a feather, yet still balanced. Weapon Finesse may be applied to the weapon, even if it couldn't normally. The weapon may be used as a weapon of a category lighter if desired. The weight of the weapon is reduced by half, with the unfortunate side effect of making bludgeoning weapons deal damage as though a size category smaller.

    • -The weapon is plated with a thin layer of another material. Silver can be used in this way to bypass certain damage reduction without a penalty to damage like normal silver weapons.

    • -The weapon is coated with a thin layer of oxidized metal, too thin to affect the performance of the blade. Since the surface of the weapon is already "rusted," it does not have to contend with further oxidation, natural or magical. This ability is incompatible with the above trait.

    • -The weapon bears a strange, if faint, attraction to metal objects. It gains a +2 bonus on disarm checks against metal weapons, but a -1 to attack against enemies with metal armor, as it is more attracted to the full metal than to the joints most people aim for. Enemies attempting to feint against the user while using metal weapons take a -2 penalty. The weapon subtly attempts to align itself along the north-south axis; if it is placed on a low-friction flat surface, this property can be used to find one's way.

    You can create a metal weapon with up to two of the following effects, increasing the Craft DC by 10 (and crafting cost by 150 gp) to do so (stacks with the above):
    • -The weapon bears infinitesimal serrations upon its blood groove which deal an additional 1d6 damage when the blade is withdrawn from an attack. The blade is "withdrawn" automatically unless the wielder lets go of it after a successful attack. Arrows and crossbow bolts are not "withdrawn" until someone intentionally pulls them out.(Can only apply to bladed weapons and the heads of arrows or crossbow bolts.)

    • -The weapon pierces damage reduction as though it were adamantine.
    Last edited by VoxRationis; 2014-07-22 at 12:09 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    jiriku's Avatar

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    Default Re: Low-Magic Wizard [PEACH]

    This is an interesting and useful feature, especially the ability to create weapons that bypass damage reduction. Does it change the cost of the weapon? If it doesn't, it's really quite good. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "when the blade is withdrawn from an attack". D&D doesn't have any rules to determine whether a weapon sticks in a target when it hits. I would recommend you move the "counts as magic" feature to the second tier of benefits, and move the disarm feature down to the first tier. Counting as a magic weapon is extremely useful against a variety of foes, and costs a couple thousand gp to obtain normally. Gaining +2 to disarm and a -2 defense against feint at the cost of -1 to hit is pretty weak, and barely worth anything.
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  15. - Top - End - #45
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Low-Magic Wizard [PEACH]

    I forgot to set a good cost adjustment for it. The cost probably shouldn't be on the level of magic, but it should be a little more than masterwork, don't you think? Or maybe I should include the masterwork benefits by default and include that in the cost.
    In any case, I'll adjust the magnetism tier.

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