Results 1 to 13 of 13
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Eldan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Switzerland
    Gender
    Male

    Default A thought on basic statistics [3.X]

    I was looking at a 4E thread again, something along the lines of "things 4E did well" and saw a point that was made about how it's really not a bad idea to combine reflex saves and touch AC. That got me thinking. In third edition, (non-touch) AC is seen as (generally) not that useful, especially at higher levels. Reflex saves, too, are often considered the weakest save.
    What is important, however? Initiative.
    So, that got me thinking. How about if touch armour, initiative and reflex saves were rolled into a single statistic, called something like "reaction"? Too good? Too useful?
    Extended Brewer's signature

    Strange is the night where black stars rise,
    And strange moons circle through the skies,
    But stranger still is
    Lost Carcosa.


    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I want more mwa-ha-haaa and much less boo-hoo-hoo.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Titan in the Playground
     
    TuggyNE's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Pondering turns of phrase
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: A thought on basic statistics [3.X]

    Seems to me folding Reflex and touch AC together is enough to make the combination worth buffing. Initiative might be related, but for most purposes it should probably be at least a little harder to combine going first, dodging spells, and being missed by all attacks in one single massively useful boost.

    Separately, though, armor, parrying/blocking, and one or two other things should probably also get a bit of a boost.
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    "Common sense" and "RAW" are not exactly on speaking terms
    Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.

    Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid" Use of gray may indicate nitpicking Green is sincerity

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Eldan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Switzerland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: A thought on basic statistics [3.X]

    Mhm. I'm not too sure about what to do with armour, really.

    One thought I had was to combine it with Fortitude and make it a kind of damage save. If you would take hit point damage, roll a save against a DC determined by the damage, if you succeed, take no damage. A bit like DR. Not a working concept yet, though.
    Extended Brewer's signature

    Strange is the night where black stars rise,
    And strange moons circle through the skies,
    But stranger still is
    Lost Carcosa.


    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I want more mwa-ha-haaa and much less boo-hoo-hoo.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Jackson, MS
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: A thought on basic statistics [3.X]

    I find the balancing issue here is helped if you start equating all the mental stats to Saves. Such as:

    Wisdom= Reflex Save
    Intelligence= Willpower Save
    Charisma= Fortitude Save
    My reasonings are:
    Charisma is from the Greek word "charisma" which means "gift". This is why we have sorcerers and internal abilities based off of Charisma, because it implies that it's their inborn gifting. Likewise, Fortitude is the save that has the most to do with the body's natural durability rather trained ability. Thus Charisma=Fortitude
    Likewise, Wisdom is most commonly connected with "perceptions" and "common sense" rather than mental prowess. Thus, Reflex makes sense to be tied to the stat that allows them to most quickly notice incoming attacks.

    But you are asking about Touch AC:
    Touch AC is already where it should be, with DEXTERITY. Dexterity, in combat, is your dodge stat. It gives you a dodge bonus. Thus, you already have a stat solely dedicated to Touch AC.
    Now, you could switch that to Wisdom, because it's your perception stat. But then, why would anyone ever take Dexterity? Dodge is what makes Dexterity worth taking.

    Alternative options:
    1. Combine Dexterity and Wisdom into "Reactions". Give divine casting to Charisma. Dexterity and Wisdom are already sub-par stats, so combine them.
    Charisma actually works best for divine spellcasting. Historically. The greek word "charisma" is the one that the Christian Bible uses for the gifting's god's people have for performing miracles, healings, etc.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2012

    Default Re: A thought on basic statistics [3.X]

    depending on how you balanced it, having normal armor class equal reflex + fortitude might work. I would recommend then having armor be damage reduction so wearing plate doesn't make you immune to poison.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Grod_The_Giant's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Pittsburgh and/or Oberlin
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: A thought on basic statistics [3.X]

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    One thought I had was to combine it with Fortitude and make it a kind of damage save. If you would take hit point damage, roll a save against a DC determined by the damage, if you succeed, take no damage. A bit like DR. Not a working concept yet, though.
    Sort of like Toughness in Mutants and Masterminds?
    STaRS-- The Simple Tabletop Roleplaying System; my attempt at a generic rules-light system.

    Giants and Graveyards: My collected 3.5 revisions-- houserules, class fixes, ban lists and more.

    The Fixed-List Caster Project: my attempt to create classes in the vein of the Dread Necromancer for all relevant aspects of magic. (Now a part of the larger Giants and Graveyards collection)

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Zaydos's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    The Beastlands
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: A thought on basic statistics [3.X]

    I'd say leave Initiative out of it, and roll nothing together, but if your Reflex save + 10 is higher than your AC you can use it instead (if Flat-Footed you lose your Dex to your Reflex save in this case). That way Reflex saves still get around touch attacks which means a wizard's touch spell will not take out the Great Wyrm Dragon no save (a great wyrm dragon has 6 or 2 touch AC but has something along the lines of +20 or greater Reflex) and you don't have to fiddle with everything that grants an Initiative, Reflex, or Armor bonus to figure out how it should apply now. It also means that if your Reflex save is higher than your AC (as can be the case for a rogue) you can now use it to dodge attacks.

    Initiative already serves its purpose quite well (letting you go first) and I'd be more inclined to tie it to BAB or a class based bonus all of its own instead of just saying all good Reflex people get a bonus on it (meaning Fighters and Barbarians and Crusaders would be particularly slow to react in combat). Reflex typically is the weakest save because Reflex halves is just damage and usually AoE damage (not intended to be save or lose), but coupled with replacing touch AC it now stops a lot of bad touch effects which are save or lose or no save just lose (Slay Living, ice touch spell, Rigor Mortis, Irresistible Dance) making it much more important. This has a stronger effect on monsters (who are more likely to have a vast touch AC Reflex save disparity) than PCs (who are less likely to be targeted by touch attacks) but serves to nerf a certain type of wizard (not necessarily the strongest but one of the simpler ones to break thanks to Frostburn) while not also nerfing fighters, barbarians, and low Reflex combatants.
    Peanut Dracolich avatar by Emperor Ing.

    My homebrew (now includes a giant undead brain)

    If you ever want to try some of my homebrew and need a DM send me a PM.

    Gonna be busy for a bit this weekend expect responses to be limited in time frame.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Eldan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Switzerland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: A thought on basic statistics [3.X]

    Quote Originally Posted by Falcon X View Post
    I find the balancing issue here is helped if you start equating all the mental stats to Saves. Such as:

    Wisdom= Reflex Save
    Intelligence= Willpower Save
    Charisma= Fortitude Save
    My reasonings are:
    Charisma is from the Greek word "charisma" which means "gift". This is why we have sorcerers and internal abilities based off of Charisma, because it implies that it's their inborn gifting. Likewise, Fortitude is the save that has the most to do with the body's natural durability rather trained ability. Thus Charisma=Fortitude
    Likewise, Wisdom is most commonly connected with "perceptions" and "common sense" rather than mental prowess. Thus, Reflex makes sense to be tied to the stat that allows them to most quickly notice incoming attacks.

    But you are asking about Touch AC:
    Touch AC is already where it should be, with DEXTERITY. Dexterity, in combat, is your dodge stat. It gives you a dodge bonus. Thus, you already have a stat solely dedicated to Touch AC.
    Now, you could switch that to Wisdom, because it's your perception stat. But then, why would anyone ever take Dexterity? Dodge is what makes Dexterity worth taking.

    Alternative options:
    1. Combine Dexterity and Wisdom into "Reactions". Give divine casting to Charisma. Dexterity and Wisdom are already sub-par stats, so combine them.
    Charisma actually works best for divine spellcasting. Historically. The greek word "charisma" is the one that the Christian Bible uses for the gifting's god's people have for performing miracles, healings, etc.

    I'm really not sure what you're talking about... I never mentioned the mental stats. I certainly don't want to add wisdom to AC for everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant View Post
    Sort of like Toughness in Mutants and Masterminds?
    Like that, yeah.

    Initiative already serves its purpose quite well (letting you go first) and I'd be more inclined to tie it to BAB or a class based bonus all of its own instead of just saying all good Reflex people get a bonus on it (meaning Fighters and Barbarians and Crusaders would be particularly slow to react in combat). Reflex typically is the weakest save because Reflex halves is just damage and usually AoE damage (not intended to be save or lose), but coupled with replacing touch AC it now stops a lot of bad touch effects which are save or lose or no save just lose (Slay Living, ice touch spell, Rigor Mortis, Irresistible Dance) making it much more important. This has a stronger effect on monsters (who are more likely to have a vast touch AC Reflex save disparity) than PCs (who are less likely to be targeted by touch attacks) but serves to nerf a certain type of wizard (not necessarily the strongest but one of the simpler ones to break thanks to Frostburn) while not also nerfing fighters, barbarians, and low Reflex combatants.
    Hm. Didn't think about monsters. A lot of them would suddenly have quite high touch AC. Add size modifier to reflex saves? (I could see it being added to fortitude saves too, but the other way around. Bigger things are harder to kill with the same dosage of poison, etc.)
    Last edited by Eldan; 2014-04-09 at 01:48 PM.
    Extended Brewer's signature

    Strange is the night where black stars rise,
    And strange moons circle through the skies,
    But stranger still is
    Lost Carcosa.


    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I want more mwa-ha-haaa and much less boo-hoo-hoo.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Jackson, MS
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: A thought on basic statistics [3.X]

    I'm really not sure what you're talking about... I never mentioned the mental stats. I certainly don't want to add wisdom to AC for everyone.
    Sorry for the lack of clarity. I mostly wanted to make the case that a new stat would weaken the system. It's a much stronger option to either convert Dexterity or Wisdom into the Reactions stat, or combine those two in some way.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Eldan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Switzerland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: A thought on basic statistics [3.X]

    Oh, now I see the confusion. I don't want to introduce a new attribute. By "statistics" in the title, I just meant the variety of... hm. I'm out of words... parameters? Let's go with that.
    By "statistics", I just meant all the parameters on the character sheet. Like AC or Initiative or "Grapple modifier". I don't suggest introducing another base attribute like strength or wisdom. I suggest combining reflex and touch AC into a single parameter that would still depend on dexterity.
    Extended Brewer's signature

    Strange is the night where black stars rise,
    And strange moons circle through the skies,
    But stranger still is
    Lost Carcosa.


    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I want more mwa-ha-haaa and much less boo-hoo-hoo.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2014

    Lightbulb Re: A thought on basic statistics [3.X]

    Just do like 13th Age and get rid of Reflex altogether.
    4e Blackguard apologist

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Eldan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Switzerland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: A thought on basic statistics [3.X]

    I wouldn't go that far. I think it still serves a lot of useful purposes. Jumping out of the way of a falling boulder. Covering your eyes in time to avoid being blinded by a flash of lightning. Grabbing onto a ledge while you fall.
    Extended Brewer's signature

    Strange is the night where black stars rise,
    And strange moons circle through the skies,
    But stranger still is
    Lost Carcosa.


    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I want more mwa-ha-haaa and much less boo-hoo-hoo.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Eldan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Switzerland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: A thought on basic statistics [3.X]

    I've put some more thought into this, after it's been mentioned. What would people think of this, regarding the armour issue? (Parts obviously cannibalized from vitality/wound points and some terminology from Warhammer).

    A basic attack consists of two rolls.

    First, you roll to hit.
    1d20+base attack bonus+dexterity+weapon enhancement (+maybe other boni)
    vs.
    10+dexterity+deflection+shield+dodge(+maybe class defence bonus)

    If the attack rolls higher, it's a hit.

    Then, you roll to wound.
    1d20+strength+weapon enhancement+weapon damage rating(+base damage bonus from class levels?)
    vs.
    1d20+constitution+armour+natural armour(+maybe size modifier? Class bonus?)

    If the attacker rolls higher, it's a wound.

    Issues to clarify would be:
    Critical hits, what do they do. A bonus to "armour penetration"?
    Critical wounds, what do they do.
    What do wounds do, exactly? How many can you take before dying? Are there penalties for wounds?
    An interesting issue, too, would be weapons. This has the potential for a more granular weapon system, where some weapons penetrate armour more easily, while others do more grievous wounds.

    Thoughts?
    Extended Brewer's signature

    Strange is the night where black stars rise,
    And strange moons circle through the skies,
    But stranger still is
    Lost Carcosa.


    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I want more mwa-ha-haaa and much less boo-hoo-hoo.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •