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    Pixie in the Playground
     
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    Default (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession

    What are some classes to take that can qualify me for Fiend of Possession by level 4? The requirements I am worrying about are: 6 hide, 6 knowledge arcana, and Will save 5. I have gotten DM approval to play an Ifrit from pathfinder.

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    Default Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession

    You'll need to multiclass to reach a +5 will save by that level.

    Psion synergizes well with FoP, since Psionic powers are spell-like abilities with no components, so they can be used while possessing people and items. It also has a good will save and Knowledge (arcana), but you'll have to find Hide somewhere else. There are feats for that kind of thing.

    A single level of Cleric will give you at least 2 domains, plus the Knowledge domain if you decide to go Cloistered (which I recommend, since a FoP doesn't need big hit die). It's good will save stacks with that of the Psion, so you can reach the will prerequisite on time.

    Some good dip domains are Pride and Destiny, which grant rerolls under different circumstances.

    If you don't like losing manifesting, you can take Ardent instead of Psion. With some cheese it allows you to catch up on several levels of lost powers. The mantles can also go well with your possession abilities, if you choose the right ones.
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    Pixie in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession

    Oh I forgot to mention that psions are not allowed.

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    Default Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession

    Well a Marshal is charisma-based like the FoP and his auras ought to still work while he is in incorporeal form, so you might try one of those. They have a high will save as well, but no Hide or Knowledge (Arcana).

    Bard and Beguiler are charisma-based, have the skills you need, and a good will save.

    A Paladin seems a strange choice for a Fiend, but if you can use one of the evil variants, their divine grace may be useful in preventing banishment.

    There is the curious case of the Warlock, if you are interested. Although their invocations are spell-like abilities with somatic components, you could try to get your DM to allow you to use the Supernatural Transformation feat from Savage Species on your invocations. This would make them into supernatural abilities with no components, so you could use that while possessing. Warlocks also have good will saves and knowledge arcana, but not Hide.
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    Pixie in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession

    At the moment I am looking at Beguiler 1/ Warlock 2/ Fiend of possession 6/ Hellfire Warlock 3. After that I have no idea what I will do.

    Edit: I just realized I will need levels of warlock between Fiend of possession and Hellfire Warlock.
    Last edited by theoneorange; 2014-04-07 at 10:38 PM.

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    Default Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession

    Quote Originally Posted by theoneorange View Post
    At the moment I am looking at Beguiler 1/ Warlock 2/ Fiend of possession 6/ Hellfire Warlock 3. After that I have no idea what I will do.

    Edit: I just realized I will need levels of warlock between Fiend of possession and Hellfire Warlock.
    A level of Binder (binding Naberius) will help outset the Con damage from Hellfire.

    Also here is a Fiend of Possession Handbook that may be of some use.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession

    how do you get subtype evil?
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    Default Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession

    Quote Originally Posted by Sewercop View Post
    how do you get subtype evil?
    I'm assuming the Pathfinder ifrit race has it.

    If you are an Outsider, you can get it by taking the divine minion template, but the only applicable god that is both evil and only a +1 LA gives just a crocodile form (Sebek or something like that).
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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession

    They are not evil no. In fact they have no alignment subtype at all, so sebek wont work since it only changes it to evil. Divine minion sebek on a outsider with alignment subtype works thou.

    Fast entry into this class at lvl 4 is only possible through insane cheese.
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    Default Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession

    I'm fond of cloistered cleric or dread necromancer (although the latter can't easily nab domains to fulfill the necessary skills). In particular, I like picking up Trickery Devotion so that, while possessing an object, I can create an illusory duplicate of myself to walk around, carry me and do my talking for me.
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    Default Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession

    Beguiler 2 / Cloistered Cleric 1 would get you the skills and will save. That said, what are you planning to do once you take people over? That will give us a better idea of what mechanics will help you achieve your goals.

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    Default Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession

    Exceptional petetioner of Abyss or Hades is Outsider with (evil) subtype, Will save +3, arbitrary amount of skillpoints and ECL 2 (assuming LA +0).
    If DM is OK with it, then why not?
    Last edited by ShurikVch; 2014-04-08 at 08:16 AM.

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    Default Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession

    It's not a class, but the Apprentice: Philosopher feat from DMG2 (p. 176) could probably help. It grants a knowledge skill of your choice as a class skill for all your current and future classes, plus assorted other bonuses. You can only take it at first level though, and it comes at a cost.
    How playable this is, becomes very dependent on the kind of DM you play with, because you sacrifice a bit of your character's agency to their whims.

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    Default Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession

    Skills
    Petitioners have no skills. Previous skills are lost.
    Feats
    Petitioners have no feats. Previous feats are lost.

    cant leave.. you`re stuck.
    Petitioners suck
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    Default Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession

    Rogue 1, Wizard 2, Sorcerer 1. For rogue you get your hide, for wizard you get +3 to will, and for sorcerer you get +2 to will and knowledge (arcana) for the last two. You get your ranks in, and you're good to go.
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    Default Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession

    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
    Rogue 1, Wizard 2, Sorcerer 1. For rogue you get your hide, for wizard you get +3 to will, and for sorcerer you get +2 to will and knowledge (arcana) for the last two. You get your ranks in, and you're good to go.
    He wants to get in at lvl 4.
    The skills and will are not an issue really, that is quite simple. The issue are outsider with subtype evil.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession

    Quote Originally Posted by Sewercop View Post
    Skills
    Petitioners have no skills. Previous skills are lost.
    Feats
    Petitioners have no feats. Previous feats are lost.
    I said "Exceptional"
    Exceptional Petitioners
    The deities may choose particular servants for specific tasks who may remember something of their previous selves. These exceptional petitioners retain the feats and skills that they had in life but are otherwise limited as the other petitioners of their plane are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sewercop View Post
    cant leave.. you`re stuck.
    Please, check the 3.5 update for Manual of the Planes, pg. 4, PETITIONERS.
    Pandemonium: Electricity and sonic immunity; cold resistance
    10, acid resistance 10.
    Abyss: Electricity and poison immunity; fire resistance 10, acid
    resistance 10; acidic vapor, no planar commitment (as described in
    Manual of the Planes).
    Carceri: Cold and acid immunity; electricity resistance 10, fire
    resistance 10; +10 racial bonus on Bluff checks.
    Hades: Cold and fire immunity; electricity resistance 10, acid
    resistance 10; wounding, disease, no planar commitment (as
    described in Manual of the Planes).
    Gehenna: Poison and acid immunity; fire resistance 10, cold
    resistance 10; +10 racial bonus on Climb checks.
    Nine Hells: Cold resistance 10, fire resistance 10; petitioners
    native to Cania have immunity to cold and no resistance to fire.
    Acheron: Electricity and sonic immunity; cold resistance 10,
    fire resistance 10; Hearten (as described in Manual of the Planes).
    Mechanus: Fire and cold immunity.
    Last edited by ShurikVch; 2014-04-08 at 02:22 PM.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession

    Still no la adjustment on it. or was that updated in the 3.5 part?
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    Default Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession

    Quote Originally Posted by Sewercop View Post
    Still no la adjustment on it. or was that updated in the 3.5 part?
    It is 3.5 update booklet
    "No LA adjustment" for template mean LA +0
    Last edited by ShurikVch; 2014-04-08 at 02:44 PM.

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    Default Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession


    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    It is 3.5 update booklet
    "No LA adjustment" for template mean LA +0
    We're talking about an actual game, kid. That kind of cheese won't fly.
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    Default Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post



    We're talking about an actual game, kid. That kind of cheese won't fly.
    It's no more cheese than Fiend of Possession itself

    Say, we take obscure (but still legal) LA +0 race A, use ritual B, multiclass between classes X and Y, and qualify for FoP at level 3. Will it be less cheesy?

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    Default Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    It's no more cheese than Fiend of Possession itself

    Say, we take obscure (but still legal) LA +0 race A, use ritual B, multiclass between classes X and Y, and qualify for FoP at level 3. Will it be less cheesy?
    Yes. Using a "rule" that has unusable implications (if no listed LA=LA +0, there are a lot worse things than exceptional petitioner one could be) makes the game unplayable. That's a level of cheese that's incompatible with an actual game. Remember, if you use the logic on one character, it's valid on every other character.
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    Default Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    Yes. Using a "rule" that has unusable implications (if no listed LA=LA +0, there are a lot worse things than exceptional petitioner one could be) makes the game unplayable. That's a level of cheese that's incompatible with an actual game. Remember, if you use the logic on one character, it's valid on every other character.
    Such as?
    AFAIK, template are hardly game-breaking (and we speak only about templates, not races)
    Yes, repeated application of Half-Dragon template can be very powerful, but Half-Dragon have clearly stated LA
    Vampire Lord can be powerful, but it's at least for ECL 15 (more likely 18), at which point if you not crazy powerful, then you probably played strait class aristocrat or something like it
    And, please, don't give me rubbish about Paragon and Pseudonatural. By ELH, they have LA, and in double digits. By SRD, they are "LA -"

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    Default Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Such as?
    AFAIK, template are hardly game-breaking (and we speak only about templates, not races)
    Yes, repeated application of Half-Dragon template can be very powerful, but Half-Dragon have clearly stated LA
    Vampire Lord can be powerful, but it's at least for ECL 15 (more likely 18), at which point if you not crazy powerful, then you probably played strait class aristocrat or something like it
    And, please, don't give me rubbish about Paragon and Pseudonatural. By ELH, they have LA, and in double digits. By SRD, they are "LA -"
    I don't know if you looked at the pages you linked for paragon and pseudonatural, but they dont have LA -, it's simply not listed.
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    Default Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Such as?
    Such as Bone Creature and Corpse Creature, quite famously.

    No LA adjustment under no circumstances means the same thing as LA +0. Most things in 3.0 don't have LA because it wasn't how the game was played at that point. Some of these have been updated to get LA, but many still lack it.
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    Default Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Such as?
    AFAIK, template are hardly game-breaking (and we speak only about templates, not races)
    Yes, repeated application of Half-Dragon template can be very powerful, but Half-Dragon have clearly stated LA
    Vampire Lord can be powerful, but it's at least for ECL 15 (more likely 18), at which point if you not crazy powerful, then you probably played strait class aristocrat or something like it
    And, please, don't give me rubbish about Paragon and Pseudonatural. By ELH, they have LA, and in double digits. By SRD, they are "LA -"
    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    I don't know if you looked at the pages you linked for paragon and pseudonatural, but they dont have LA -, it's simply not listed.
    That. And by ELH, specific combinations have specific values for LA, which tells you nothing about the general case, especially since example characters are notoriously messed up.

    But that's a silly debate to get into in its own right. And let's leave aside the fact that, regardless, Abyssal exceptional petitioners are Manes, which are no longer a template as of FCI, and Hades exceptional petitioners are Larvae, which...actually, doing this sort of thing with a Larva would be kind of cool, but anyway...

    Basically, if your ruling ("templates that don't list an LA are LA +0) were usable, then there would have to have been a general tendency of the designers to make such templates neutral in power. It's your responsibility to demonstrate that.

    Just for fun, let's list a few templates that are LA +0 under your ruling. I'm not going and seeking out especially bad ones, just going through the update booklet and picking everything that didn't get an LA attached:

    Einherjar (Divine Rank 0 at level 10 for no additional cost? Yes please!)
    Asgardian Giant (If you're already playing a Fire or Frost Giant for some reason, again you get Divine Rank 0 for no extra cost.)
    Huecuva
    Swordwraith
    Wendigo
    Yellow Musk Zombie
    (A point about those four: some templates in the Fiend Folio list an LA, some do not. If your point of view were plausible, the templates that don't list an LA would be those that are the most power-neutral. If my point of view were plausible, they would be those that are unsuitable for players. Which do you think the four templates above are?)

    Those are the easiest ones to find, but there should be plenty more in unupdated 3.0 FR books.
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    Default Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession

    Quote Originally Posted by The Viscount View Post
    No LA adjustment under no circumstances means the same thing as LA +0. Most things in 3.0 don't have LA because it wasn't how the game was played at that point. Some of these have been updated to get LA, but many still lack it.
    For templates, everything is "as base creature" unless it says otherwise. For races, no listed la means its unplayable, while for templates, it means it uses la of base creature, because unless it specifically says "la:-", its as the base creature.
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    Default Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession

    Quote Originally Posted by Necroticplague View Post
    For templates, everything is "as base creature" unless it says otherwise. For races, no listed la means its unplayable, while for templates, it means it uses la of base creature, because unless it specifically says "la:-", its as the base creature.
    Indeed, this is aptly demonstrated by Yellow Musk Zombies, which are clearly suitable as PCs.
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    Default Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession

    Quote Originally Posted by Necroticplague View Post
    For templates, everything is "as base creature" unless it says otherwise. For races, no listed la means its unplayable, while for templates, it means it uses la of base creature, because unless it specifically says "la:-", its as the base creature.
    sure thing mate
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    Default Re: (3.5) Qualifying for Fiend of Possession

    Quote Originally Posted by Sewercop View Post
    sure thing mate
    If you want a more formal rule citation:

    Quote Originally Posted by srd
    A template’s description provides a set of instructions for altering an existing creature, known as the base creature. The changes that a template might cause to each line of a creature ’s statistics block are discussed below. Generally, if a template does not cause a change to a certain statistic, that entry is missing from the template description. For clarity, the entry for a statistic or attribute that is not changed is sometimes given as “Same as the base creature.”
    Last edited by Necroticplague; 2014-04-09 at 12:12 PM.
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