Nonstandard Craft, Knowledge, Perform, and Profession Skills?

[Rubik]

Craft, Knowledge, Perform, and Profession all encompass numerous individual skills, and the Knowledges in particular are spelled out in the skill description. But what interesting sub-categories can we think of that we can use for oddball things, and for useful problem-solving in odd games, such as "D&D in the modern world"? This includes metagaming in-game, too.

For instance, "Knowledge: 3rd Edition D&D" could potentially give answers to any rules question, from monster stats to spell descriptions to feats to skills to magic items to lists of class abilities and ACFs and so on. It could be used to metagame the game from within the game. Heck, it could potentially sub out for all the other Knowledge skills when trying to figure out any given monster's abilities and how to exploit them (but probably not campaign-specific problems, especially if it's from an unpublished setting or homebrew).

Almost any Craft check could be simulated using Craft: Mechanics, Craft: Carving, Craft: Weaving, Craft: Smithing, and Craft: Alchemy.

Perform: Oratory could be used any time you're speaking to anyone, and it can help with bardic magic without arousing much suspicion from the person and/or people you're using bardic music and such on. Plus, bardic music in particular has no time limit, so if your character habitually mutters to himself, he can keep his bardic music going between combats just by keeping up the chatter.

Perform: Sex can apparently be used in lieu of Diplomacy, by sweet-talking your target, even if actual sex isn't involved. Especially viable if you're a shapeshifter with low standards. Plus it has more fun applications than you can shake your booty stick at.

Knowledge: Physics, Knowledge: Physiology and Biology, and Knowledge: Technology could all have fun uses in the modern world, or even to revolutionize a standard Dark Ages game, wherein you can push the limits of what mundane solutions can do.

Any other ideas?

[Deophaun]

Perform: Oratory nonstandard? It's pretty much the prerequisite for your Bard being a badass instead of all spoony.

Edit: And gah! Your signature has been annoying me. Said-bookisms are NOT skilled writing! :P

[squiggit]

I DM'd a game once that included an ex-chef Warblade. He had craft(food) and perform(cooking). Was a silly character, but pretty cool.

[Rubik]

Perform: Oratory nonstandard? It's pretty much the prerequisite for your Bard being a badass instead of all spoony.

But the use is a bit nonstandard.

Edit: And gah! Your signature has been annoying me. Said-bookisms are NOT skilled writing! :P

I just took someone else's quote and altered it, because "asked" and "said" aren't earmarks of skilled writing either.

[MadGreenSon]

I DM'd a game once that included an ex-chef Warblade. He had craft(food) and perform(cooking). Was a silly character, but pretty cool.

Talking about silly skills, a player in one of my games very badly worded a wish to a bound Effreet to become more knowledgeable than anyone else in the world in his field of expertise.

The Effeet replied "and what are you? A potato farmer?" and BOOM! Max ranks at every level for free plus an untyped +10 to Knowledge: Potato Farming and Profession: Potato Farming.

So now the 14th or so level Wizard was the world's foremost expert in Potato Farming and could name every. single. detail. of anything relating to Potato Farming. He ended up being a good sport and took some ranks in Profession: Cook and the party got treated to every kind of potato-based food the player could find on the internet, so it was a happy thing in the end.

He probably had more fun with that than he would have with big bonuses to Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcana anyway.

The party got tired of potatoes after awhile though...

[Zanos]

Talking about silly skills, a player in one of my games very badly worded a wish to a bound Effreet to become more knowledgeable than anyone else in the world in his field of expertise.

The Effeet replied "and what are you? A potato farmer?" and BOOM! Max ranks at every level for free plus an untyped +10 to Knowledge: Potato Farming and Profession: Potato Farming.

So now the 14th or so level Wizard was the world's foremost expert in Potato Farming and could name every. single. detail. of anything relating to Potato Farming. He ended up being a good sport and took some ranks in Profession: Cook and the party got treated to every kind of potato-based food the player could find on the internet, so it was a happy thing in the end.

He probably had more fun with that than he would have with big bonuses to Spellcraft and Knowledge: Arcana anyway.

The party got tired of potatoes after awhile though...

You can barbecue it, boil it, broil it, bake it, saute it. Dey's uh, potato-kabobs, potato creole, potato gumbo. Pan fried, deep fried, stir-fried. There's pineapple potato, lemon potato, coconut potato, pepper potato, potato soup, potato stew, potato salad, potatoes and potatoes, potato burger, potato sandwich. That- that's about it.

That sounds like a great and non-mean way to twist wishes on players.

Knowledge(Sourcebooks) was a joke skill I saw one time. Make a check to force your DM to look something up for you.

[Deophaun]

But the use is a bit nonstandard.

Actually, more like bard's first cheese. The muttering to keep BM going is often changed to humming to keep BM going in my experience, but the concept is the same.

Nonstandard was use of Craft: Whitesmithing to get around a DM's defacto ban on suitable crafting materials for money-making (gems, marble, etc). But we had a good amount of gold, platinum, and silver coins. Next campaign our treasure came in the form of rice...

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I just took someone else's quote and altered it, because "asked" and "said" aren't earmarks of skilled writing either.

Actually, they are. They're either the earmarks of someone who has just started writing with no preconceptions, or of someone who has been writing long enough to lose their infatuation with cramming as many synonyms for "said" into their work. Hence why I think the quote you're referring to goes:

Unskilled writers use "said" and "asked".
Amateur writers use "whispered", "shouted" and "questioned"
Skilled writers use "demonstrated", "ejaculated", "murmured", "explained", "queried" and "demanded"
Masterful writers use "said" and "asked".

Now, I'd merge the Skilled list with the Amateur, boot the Masterful list down to Skilled, and then add your Masterful to the end, but that ruins the impact, both for comedic and pedagogical purposes. The quote as you present it, meanwhile, just encourages bad writing, which is why it's been bugging me.

[squiggit]

but that ruins the impact, both for comedic...

For what it's worth. I think yours has a better punchline.

[MadGreenSon]

That sounds like a great and non-mean way to twist wishes on players.

I try not to be too mean with the wishes. I get creative elsewhere.

Lessee, there was a Factotum with Profession: Beggar and Perform: Sob Stories which he used to get tavern money with a bit of Disguise thrown in (He went Chameleon later on).

Arcane Order/Guild-type Wizard with Profession: Bureaucrat, which came in handy a few time dealing with the guild and he also handled any paperwork type things the party needed.

I had an NPC Assassin who ably combined Craft: Poison Making with Profession: Cook to serve up entrees of death. (Funnily enough, no actual levels of Assassin, it was just a job title)

A player who's character was temporarily turned into a vampire (long story) wanted to get Perform: Stares, but everyone boo'ed him away from the table til he apologized.

Knowledge(Sourcebooks) was a joke skill I saw one time. Make a check to force your DM to look something up for you.

I usually end up doing that anyway...

[Rubik]

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Actually, they are. They're either the earmarks of someone who has just started writing with no preconceptions, or of someone who has been writing long enough to lose their infatuation with cramming as many synonyms for "said" into their work. Hence why I think the quote you're referring to goes:

Now, I'd merge the Skilled list with the Amateur, boot the Masterful list down to Skilled, and then add your Masterful to the end, but that ruins the impact, both for comedic and pedagogical purposes. The quote as you present it, meanwhile, just encourages bad writing, which is why it's been bugging me.

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I find that passages go much more smoothly if you preface dialogue with a character's actions and reactions to other characters' dialogue and/or the situation at hand.

For instance:

Aang stared at Sokka, his jaw hanging wide in disbelief. "I can't believe you just said that!"

...gives away the speaker [Aang], his tone [disbelieving], and the target of his comment [Sokka]. That, and it gives an actual reaction without having to, as you put it, cram in synonyms for "said." Hence my stating that masterful writing avoids using such things. You can add in "said" and "asked" and their synonyms occasionally, but using those in every bit of dialogue gets repetitive and annoying very quickly.

[Deophaun]

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I find that passages go much more smoothly if you preface dialogue with a character's actions and reactions to other characters' dialogue and/or the situation at hand.

And I don't disagree. As I said, I think your "Masterful" is fine. But your quote puts said-bookisms as absolutely above "said," which they aren't.

[Rubik]

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And I don't disagree. As I said, I think your "Masterful" is fine. But your quote puts said-bookisms as absolutely above "said," which they aren't.

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I find anything more than the most infrequent use of "asked" and "said" to be juvenile, and not at all a mark of masterful writing, even with professional writers. They lack any spark of interest, imagination, or creativity, and should be used sparingly.

[Deophaun]

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They lack any spark of interest, imagination, and creativity...

Which is precisely why you use "said" and "asked," because they don't draw attention to themselves. All of the other said-bookisms are blinking neon signs that read "I'm telling!," with an added subheading of "I have a thesaurus!" If you only use "said" and "asked," then you are using either action or the dialog itself to convey tone.

Anyway, I'm hijacking your thread. Obviously, the proper place to have this debate is in our signatures!.

[Rubik]

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Which is precisely why you use "said" and "asked," because they don't draw attention to themselves. All of the other said-bookisms are blinking neon signs that read "I'm telling!," with an added subheading of "I have a thesaurus!" If you only use "said" and "asked," then you are using either action or the dialog itself to convey tone.

Anyway, I'm hijacking your thread. Obviously, the proper place to have this debate is in our signatures!.

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But you don't have to use "said" and "asked" if you convey meaning through showing, and that's the point.

[Deophaun]

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But you don't have to use "said" and "asked" if you convey meaning through showing, and that's the point.

You've got that backwards. "Said" and "asked" are not about meaning. They're basically punctuation, just used so that that the reader can keep track of the dialogue. In some cases, this is more literal, like here:

"I just don't know what to do," Darla said. "How do I go on without him?"

The "said" there is serving the same purpose as a comma, only more so. Its purpose is to make the reader pause between statements without pulling the reader out of the conversation, which something like "Darla sobbed" would.

It's the said-bookisms that convey meaning, and they do so by telling. So they're the ones that are rendered completely obsolete by showing.

Here's some links if you want to read more, but I swear, this is my last post on this topic so that we can get back to your OP

Turkey City Lexicon
TV Tropes of course gets in on it. (Also where I pulled the alternate form of your quote from)
http://fmwriters.com/Visionback/Issue%205/tags.htm
http://lettergoblog.blogspot.com/p/said-bookisms.html

[Rubik]

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You've got that backwards. "Said" and "asked" are not about meaning. They're basically punctuation, just used so that that the reader can keep track of the dialogue. In some cases, this is more literal, like here:

"I just don't know what to do," Darla said. "How do I go on without him?"

The "said" there is serving the same purpose as a comma, only more so. Its purpose is to make the reader pause between statements without pulling the reader out of the conversation, which something like "Darla sobbed" would.

It's the said-bookisms that convey meaning, and they do so by telling. So they're the ones that are rendered completely obsolete by showing.

Here's some links if you want to read more, but I swear, this is my last post on this topic so that we can get back to your OP

Turkey City Lexicon
TV Tropes of course gets in on it. (Also where I pulled the alternate form of your quote from)
http://fmwriters.com/Visionback/Issue%205/tags.htm
http://lettergoblog.blogspot.com/p/said-bookisms.html

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That trope uses them badly. You show what's going on, rather than telling. It results in a much smoother read. Use "said" and "asked" sparingly, and use the more colorful words with skill, rather than willy-nilly, but still sparingly. Helps avoid adverbs and constant repetition, and with most of the dialogue prefaced with bits that forestall constantly using dialogue attributions of the "telling" kind, you don't need to add in those others much at all (let alone the utterly blase "said" and "asked").

[Vaz]

You can barbecue it, boil it, broil it, bake it, saute it. Dey's uh, potato-kabobs, potato creole, potato gumbo. Pan fried, deep fried, stir-fried. There's pineapple potato, lemon potato, coconut potato, pepper potato, potato soup, potato stew, potato salad, potatoes and potatoes, potato burger, potato sandwich. That- that's about it.

What's, tater's, precious?

Boil em mash em stick in a stew Boil em mash em stick in a stew Boil em mash em stick in a stew Boil em mash em stick in a stew Boil em mash em stick in a stew.

[FullStop]

Perform: Oratory could be used any time you're speaking to anyone, and it can help with bardic magic without arousing much suspicion from the person and/or people you're using bardic music and such on. Plus, bardic music in particular has no time limit, so if your character habitually mutters to himself, he can keep his bardic music going between combats just by keeping up the chatter.

Sounds more like Perform: Filibuster to me.

[Rubik]

Sounds more like Perform: Filibuster to me.

Perform: Oral could be used for all of that AND certain, more interesting, private uses.

[MadGreenSon]

Perform: Oral could be used for all of that AND certain, more interesting, private uses.

Hmmm... You might need a few more ranks in Perform: Double Entendres there


Speaking of Craft, which I wasn't, how broad would anyone let a Craft skill be? Alchemy can do all kinds of stuff, what about Metalworking? Could Craft: Metalworking be used to make weapons, armor, and other metal things?

Maybe that's a thing to decide on a game by game basis.

A few nonstandard ideas:

For a Charlatan: Craft: "Magic" Items

From our current Way of the Wicked game - Perform: Tent Revival Preaching (the character was convicted of Blasphemy and Heresy for impersonating priests)

From the same game - Profession: Slaver

Also from that game - Profession: Graverobber

Hmmm... Evil gets kinda non-standard.

Other Ideas

Knowledge: Heresy (for when you need to fluster, embarrass or anger the local cleric)

Knowledge: Infernal Contract Law (Drive a hard bargain in your deals with the devils)

Profession: Infernal Contract Lawyer (Now the devils will want to hire you, and you can represent others in making deals. )

Just to round it out: Craft: Infernal Contracts (make sure that the contract is airtight!)

And one last thought for roguish types who want to not spend hard earned loot on ale and wenches:

Profession: Petty Street Hustles (Three card monty, the shell game, etc.)

[Rubik]

Some of those are awfully narrow.

Why Knowledge: Infernal Contract Law when you could add ranks to Knowledge: Law or Speak Language (Legalese)? And Knowledge (Religion) gives you Heresy for free.

[NoACWarrior]

Theres always the standard craft: underwater basket weaving.

But then again we should be synergizing the non-standard skills -

Craft: Money
Perform: Audit
Profession: Tax Collector
Knowledge: Finance

Craft: Underwear
Perform: Underwear modeling
Profession: Fashion Designer
Knowledge: Trends


For the first set, it would be totally interesting if a PC could make their own money, but in DnD it doesn't matter unless the area requires a particular style or form of it. Then you could perform audits to figure out if people owe you money, and use your knowledge in finance and your profession to get taxes from them.

For the second set, its just an excuse to walk around in only underwear - you can use that in addition to your profession and knowledge to get better reactions from certain people you need to deal with.

[Rubik]

Craft: Money

This is the best one. Use 1 gp to craft 3 gp very, very quickly.

[MadGreenSon]

This is the best one. Use 1 gp to craft 3 gp very, very quickly.

Wouldn't you want to use Forgery for that?

[NoACWarrior]

Wouldn't you want to use Forgery for that?

Why bother making fake money when you can make real money for 1/3 of the price with a simple check. Not that its possible in RL haha.

[Azoth]

Craft (brewing) is a fun one to make you the life of the party. Everyone loves the guy who can get them drunk. Combo it with Profession (Bartender) and you get them drunk on insanely good drinks while making a good profit.

[Valwyn]

Knowledge: (Video) Games
Perform: Procrastinate
Craft: Excuse

Profession: Escort

[Rubik]

Craft (brewing) is a fun one to make you the life of the party. Everyone loves the guy who can get them drunk. Combo it with Profession (Bartender) and you get them drunk on insanely good drinks while making a good profit.

And use Psionic Minor Creation so brewing it takes very little time, and nobody gets hangovers in the morning, because the alcohol (and all the toxic chemicals it's broken down into) all evaporate into nothingness.

Then again, drinking vegan bodily waste isn't exactly on the top of my priorities.

[Milo v3]

Craft (Livestock) is used in my setting to craft chickens and pigs and such.

[Rubik]

Craft (Cheese) has many uses, both involving dairy products and op-fu.

How about Craft (Clever Plan) and Profession (Min-Maxer)?

Profession (Oldest)?