Druid with monk's belt

[Asteron]

*HEADDESK*

Derp...

[Spore]

Remember that the PF version of the monk's belt works differently.

[eggynack]

I'm undercumberd while in wild shape!!! Or not? Is this too much interpretation? I mean, I'm not barded!

As long as you're within your light load limits, and you aren't wearing armor, you're fine.

And, generally speaking, can you advise me for some good/sweet/very good druid equipment and weapon/armor enhancements? Everything is allowed, and when i say "everything", i mean everything except Dragon Magazine and third party source books. WotC's online material is ok.
Thank you!

What level are we talking about here? It impacts things somewhat. In any case, a lesser metamagic rod of extend spell, or maybe two, is always a good idea. Druids get just a crazy amount of spells that are lower than 4th level that benefit from a doubled duration, ranging from hours/level buffs, like heart of water/air, to 24 hour buffs, like primal instinct/hunter, to spells like creeping cold, which are creeping cold, and thus awesome with extension. Very cheap, very useful. Next, you should consider a ring of the beast (CC, 141), which boosts your summoning tremendously, and maybe a mantle of the beast (CC, 140), which lets you wild shape as a swift action. Neither item requires wilding clasps to work in a wild shape.

Another thing of note is the belt of battle (MIC, 73), because extra actions are always great (you can combine it with the monk's belt, if you like), a pearl of speech (MIC, 118), which lets you talk in a wild shape, and perhaps a periapt of wisdom, for those are always good. There are other items of note, but many depend to some extent on level.

[Rubik]

Remember that the PF version of the monk's belt works differently.

And is basically not worth buying for anyone.

[.Zero]

I didn't understand what you're trying to tell me. Is my dirty trick doable? I mean: am i considered undercumbered, when wild shaping and wearing a Wild-enhanced armor, for the purpose of the Monk's Belt + Wilding Clasp AC bonus?

@eggynack
You're right. We're talking about a 12th level Druid-only pc
Is the Monk's Belt + Wilding Clasp a good combo for boosting AC or actually is better going with a Wild armor? The problem is that i can have a decent AC with the belt and wild shape natural armor, but i don't want to play a turtle, and maybe i can have major benefits enhancing something.
Also, what are good special materials for druid's equipment?

[eggynack]

@eggynack
You're right. We're talking about a 12th level Druid-only pc
Is the Monk's Belt + Wilding Clasp a good combo for boosting AC or actually is better going with a Wild armor? The problem is that i can have a decent AC with the belt and wild shape natural armor, but i don't want to play a turtle,

I think that's about the level range where you should be running the belt. It's a bit ambiguous whether you still face max dex bonus from wild armor, and you definitely do from wilding clasp+standard armor, and high dexterity bat forms are sweet. Anyway, level 12 you're actually starting to hit standard metamagic rod of extend territory, which is a thing that druids can also make use of, and the mantle of the wild is quite purchasable. If you really want to push things, and you get over the thing about not playing a turtle, you can push 40,000 GP into a wild shape amulet (MoF, 167), which boosts effective wild shape level by 4, granting access to dire tortoise form (Sand, 151), causing you to always act in the surprise round.

[Lord Vukodlak]

2) This is more of a matter of the DM actually reading the rule wrong than issuing a houserule on the matter.

Not everyone agrees with the interpretation "you get wisdom to AC" Some believe the item was only referring to the column and not the class feature.

In that case, if you have one, sell it. It's not worth bothering with, even on a monk. (In which case it's utterly redundant; +1 to AC for 13k? Bleh.) There are items which cost 1/10 as much which are far more useful, so buy 5 of them and have done.

Your forgetting it functions differently for monks
+1 AC, +1 Stunning Fist a day and his unarmed damage increases a step or two.

[Jack_Simth]

This must be the festival of silliness.

It's actually RAW. Check the Dungeon Master's Guide, page 14. Also page 18: "Do you cheat? The answer: The DM really can’t cheat. You’re the umpire, and what you say goes."

Essentially, the DM is right (at least at that table) even when the DM is provably in direct contradiction to the written rules of the game.

Edit: Add into that the little issue that yes, some people do indeed believe that the AC bonus of a 5th level Monk really should be referring to the table rather than the AC bonus class feature, and your DM is most assuredly correct at your table, irrespective of whatever anyone else thinks, FAQ or no.

[eggynack]

Not everyone agrees with the interpretation "you get wisdom to AC" Some believe the item was only referring to the column and not the class feature.

You get the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th level monk. A 5th level monk gets wisdom to AC, given certain conditions. It seems pretty straightforward to me. Text trumps table, and the text lists this bonus, so such is the nature of things.

[Lord Vukodlak]

You get the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th level monk. A 5th level monk gets wisdom to AC, given certain conditions. It seems pretty straightforward to me. Text trumps table, and the text lists this bonus, so such is the nature of things.

Trumps what table? The text says you get the "monk ac bonus" but does that refer to the class feature, or the column on the monk class.

[eggynack]

Trumps what table? The text says you get the "monk ac bonus" but does that refer to the class feature, or the column on the monk class.

The column on the monk class is the class feature, derived from the text given in the list of class features. The two are even titled identically. As they are both rules for the same thing, the text trumps the table in terms of what the monk's AC bonus is. As is, the monk's belt doesn't even reference a particular ability. It just says you gain the AC of a 5th level monk. A 5th level monk gets AC based on wisdom, so you do too, unless you're somehow claiming that a 5th level monk does not gain AC equal to their wisdom modifier. It's a thing somewhat lacking in alternate interpretations.

[Optimator]

Clearly it refers to the class ability.

[Rubik]

Clearly it refers to the class ability.

Pretty sure this is a case of Ability A = Ability A.

[.Zero]

Sorry for being insistent, can you reply on this? It's very important. Thanks! ;)

I didn't understand what you're trying to tell me. Is my dirty trick doable? I mean: am i considered undercumbered, when wild shaping and wearing a Wild-enhanced armor, for the purpose of the Monk's Belt + Wilding Clasp AC bonus?

I also found this:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archi.../t-149136.html

Armor of the Beast (CC), Wild armor melds into your form and you are no longer considered to be wearing armor, but it still grants its AC bonus. You don't take the armor check penalty or movement penalties for wild armor, and your Monk AC bonus will apply when wearing it but only when wild shaped.

So somebody else thought of this trick before me, and I'm now even more convinced that this could be done.
Your thoughts?

[Bronk]

I'm curious* how you come to that conclusion?
The Monk's Belt states:

The part about lethal damage comes under Unarmed Strike:

The Monk Class table has a column for the Unarmed Damage. This is talked about in the fourth paragraph of Unarmed Strike. It is separate from the lethal damage, the "Natural and Manufactured Weapons," and the Improved Unarmed Strike bonus feat. If the MB gave all of that, (i.e. the Unarmed Strike class feature,) then I would have no qualms with what you said, and the belt would likely be rather underpriced. As it is, you only get 1/4 of the CF:

*(...I'm using that term alot today...)

Because interestingly, any character, monster, or what have you can always use an unarmed attack based off of its BAB, which can be iterative with a high enough BAB, and if they have natural weapons too, they can throw those in at BAB-5 as secondary attacks. The only difference is that while you are wearing a monk's belt, as you pointed out, you get the 'unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk', and that damage is lethal, a larger die, and with your full strength behind it, which can make the option more advantageous.

That's just how natural weapons work with iterative attacks. I would say that most monsters aren't written in such a way as to take advantage of that, but it would make more sense if they advanced through class levels or had a magic item like the Monk's Belt... Or both, like a druid wearing the belt. Either way, that's the RAW. It seems to be the RAI too, if this is anything to go by:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a

I would also point out that the wording of the belt's abilities doesn't pin them to any particular class feature, table or feat, and that goes for the AC bonus too. Any particular DM could read into it that way if they choose, of course.

[Rubik]

Sorry for being insistent, can you reply on this? It's very important. Thanks! ;)

I didn't understand what you're trying to tell me. Is my dirty trick doable? I mean: am i considered undercumbered, when wild shaping and wearing a Wild-enhanced armor, for the purpose of the Monk's Belt + Wilding Clasp AC bonus?

I also found this:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archi.../t-149136.html

So somebody else thought of this trick before me, and I'm now even more convinced that this could be done.
Your thoughts?

Are you talking to me, or to someone else? Adding some sort of delineation as to whom you're speaking would go a long way toward clearing that question up.

The answer to your question depends on whether you're considered wearing armor or not. You gain the benefits (the AC bonus and the special effects) of wearing the armor, but it's absorbed into your body, so you don't gain the max Dex penalty or the armor check penalty.

If you're considered wearing the armor, the monk's belt doesn't work. If you're not, then it does. So the question is, are you? The wild property in CC says no, so...

[prufock]

I generally prefer the belt. You need to stick wild onto the armor in order to get it to work in wild shape, which winds up costing about the same as a monk's belt+clasp, and if you actually are doing the feat plan, that just seems bad. Also, a monk's belt stacks really well with what a druid is capable of. You toss on luminous armor, and that's something like double-armor, and you can have an infinite dexterity bonus to AC, and druids can get pretty huge dexterity bonuses to AC. It's a good deal. You can often do better than buying either one, however, by buying something that augments your actual abilities. Getting a rod of lesser extend spell, or a ring of the beast is going to likely grant more power than either armor setup, and at a lower price at that.

Attach wilding clasps to the armor and shield. That's 8000 gp instead of 30000+. So 6800 + 8000 = 14800 compared to the monk's belt at 13000 + 4000 = 17000. Armor is still the cheaper option. Luminous Armor is great, but so is Magic Vestment.

I prefer the belt too, for several reasons: it applies to touch AC, it doesn't affect your speed, and I just like the aesthetic of a druid wearing no armor.

It might be underpriced, but I don't think it's off by that much. A druid is going to be wild shaping and probably doesn't care much about the unarmed damage. And yeah, it's better for druids and clerics than it is for anyone else (basically useless for most classes), but that's the case for many many items; they synergize with some classes better than others.

Imagine a 12th level cleric who has your fullplate, shield (and a cloak, ring and bracers of protection if we're going all out on ac) and a pheriapt of wisdom +4 and +3 from ability score increase. His wisdom will be 18+7=25 wich gives a +7 bonus on wisdom

Buying the monks belt willl then give you 8 ac for 13k gold without forcing you to increase the +X from your full plate, shield cloak, bracers or rings. This is, in my opinion, a very updgrade efficient way to increase your ac. Upgrading an item from +1 to +2 to get more ac from one item is very cost ineficient and, if possible, should be prevented.

Monk's belt and armor do not work together. You only get monk AC bonus if you are "unarmored and unencumbered."

[.Zero]

@Rubik, you're right. I meant "can you all reply on this"

@Anyone
Ok, so Wild Armor + Monk's Belt + Wilding Clasp combo seems to work.
I'm now thinking to push this a little further: when i wild shape with Wild armor i no longer have max Dex limits and the like so... screw heavy armor and tower shield competence!
I Wild enhance the both of 'em and i'll end up with a resonably sky high AC, assuming Monk's Belt combo.
Is a Dragonhide Wild Fullplate Armor good? Will it be better to use spells to transform wood in iron? Or is there a better special material or a specific armor?

The next step will be find a way to stay in wild shape 24/7. Any suggestion?

[Shinken]

You can't use armor, any kind of armor, and still get the effect of the monk's belt.
Your best bet is something that grants an armor bonus without it being armor, such as (greater) mage armor, (greater) luminous armor of bracers of armor.

[hymer]

The next step will be find a way to stay in wild shape 24/7. Any suggestion?

Be a level 9 druid? Even level 8 may do. 3 wild shapes per day at one hour per wild shape, 8 hours needed to sleep.

[prufock]

I didn't understand what you're trying to tell me. Is my dirty trick doable? I mean: am i considered undercumbered, when wild shaping and wearing a Wild-enhanced armor, for the purpose of the Monk's Belt + Wilding Clasp AC bonus?

Can you give me a page reference to the Complete Champion Wild armor enhancement? I can't see it, all I see is Armor of the Beast (137) which doesn't contain the text you quoted.

I misunderstood the context. That's a quote from the thread you linked, not from the book. However, it looks like my conclusion is correct. With the wild armor enchantment, you are still considered to be wearing the armor. Monk AC bonus does not work when you are wearing armor, ergo you can't stack them.

The DMG text says the following:

The wearer of a suit of armor or a shield with this ability preserves his armor bonus (and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape. Armor and shields with this ability usually appear to be made covered in leaf patterns. While the wearer is in a wild shape, the armor cannot be seen.

The armor can not be seen, but you are still the wearer of the armor. Since monk's belt only works if you are unarmored, the combo doesn't seem to work. However, I'm reserving judgment until I see the Complete Champion text for myself.

[sleepyphoenixx]

@Rubik, you're right. I meant "can you all reply on this"

@Anyone
Ok, so Wild Armor + Monk's Belt + Wilding Clasp combo seems to work.
I'm now thinking to push this a little further: when i wild shape with Wild armor i no longer have max Dex limits and the like so... screw heavy armor and tower shield competence!
I Wild enhance the both of 'em and i'll end up with a resonably sky high AC, assuming Monk's Belt combo.
Is a Dragonhide Wild Fullplate Armor good? Will it be better to use spells to transform wood in iron? Or is there a better special material or a specific armor?

The next step will be find a way to stay in wild shape 24/7. Any suggestion?

Even if your DM rules that the combo works you'll be spending so much money on AC that you can't afford anything else. There's tons of better things to spend your gold on instead of AC.
Also, once you get to the point where even dedicated melee you encounter need a natural 20 to hit every additional point of AC is wasted because it does literally nothing.
Most of the time enemies don't have full BAB and maxed strength so you waste even more.

You can easily get level appropiate AC with a Monk's Belt and your spells. Spend your money on Pearls of Power to share the love or get something else instead.

[eggynack]

Luminous Armor is great, but so is Magic Vestment.

Perhaps, but luminous armor has two major advantages. First, it's better. Ignoring the ability damage, which you can pretty much do, luminous armor is just about strictly better, with a lower level, a higher AC bonus, and additional effects on top of that. Second, druids can cast it. You could always have a cleric in the party, but I feel like the degree to which I'm comfortable having my plans reliant on the resources of other party members goes down as my tier goes up. A well built druid should be pretty close to completely self sufficient, I think.

[.Zero]

I read the Wild enhancement text in the SRD, but I'm still in the mood that Monk's Belt AC bonus stacks with Wild armor.
When wild shaping, an armor melds into your body, becoming nonfunctional, and you lose max dex limits, movement limits and the like. Right? The Wild enhancement simply lets you retain armor's AC bonus while wild shaping, but the armor still melds into your body and you still lose max dex etc.
So, how can someone considered being wearing an armor when wild shaping? I mean, I'm not a full plated warrior type sorrounded by a furry bear-shaped robot. I'm not like Eren inside a Titan's neck. When i wild shape, i BECOME a bear, i AM a bear, and everything else in my possession melds within my new form together with my body.
And again, if it is true that i lose max dex limits etc (and in fact it's true), i truly believe that I'm considered unarmored while wild shaping.

Thoug I'm not going to spend all my money in AC.

@hymer
Mmh... i don't understand. At 12th level i can wild shape 4/day, at 12 hours duration each. But... let's say, i wake up and prepare my spells, then i wild shape into a desmodu bat and fly around for 3 hours (3 wild shape left, 9 hours left) It's time to fight and i need to go melee. Wild shape in dire bear and win the fight (2 wild shape left, 12 hours left).
Need to move across a river/canyon, wild shape in bat form and pass the canyon, move until the next fight for 2 hours (1 wild shape left, 10 hours left). Need to fight in melee again, wild shape in bear and win.
Now there are 18 hours left for the day but 8 hours are needed for sleep, so i can remain in bear form for the rest of the day. But what if i needed to move and fight more?
I'm hoping to find an effect similar to a Psychoactive Skin of Proteus, which grants an unlimited Metamorphosis effect to the wearer.

@Anyone
And what about other magic items and wild shape? Can i preserve my scrolls or eternal wands or metamagic rods of extend spell? I need to apply a Wilding Clasp to my bag?
Thanks.

[hymer]

@ .Zero: So stop switching all the time. If you're the group's melee, stay in your preferred melee form. If you spend most of your time casting, pick your preferred high-dex flight form, and if you get low on spells switch to your melee form. I play a seventh level druid, and I've yet to be in a situation where I'd wish I could shift, but didn't have the times per day to do it. This is obviously campaign dependent, but it really ought to be a problem you can plan end economize your way out of.