What is the difference between a 4th edition druid and 3.5

[deathwolf669]

Hey guys, I have played a druid a few times in 3.5 and have been invited to a 4th ed game, what are the differences between the editions?

I don't have any of the 4th editions books myself but which ones should I look into getting my hands on for character creation and making a nice druid? I am not looking to optimize my druid so please don't shout out and suggest character builds as I need to go off and work out how to build the thing from scratch.

Thanks in advance
DW

[Akodo Makama]

Hey guys, I have played a druid a few times in 3.5 and have been invited to a 4th ed game, what are the differences between the editions?

I don't have any of the 4th editions books myself but which ones should I look into getting my hands on for character creation and making a nice druid? I am not looking to optimize my druid so please don't shout out and suggest character builds as I need to go off and work out how to build the thing from scratch.

Thanks in advance
DW

Everything. It's a different game. You'll need to at least look at the PHB1 to know just how different the game itself is, and the PHB2 will have (nearly) all the Druid stuff.

Decent Overview:
http://dnd4.wikia.com/wiki/Druid

Druid handbook:
http://community.wizards.com/forum/4...hreads/1953811

[NecroRebel]

Yeah, the list of differences between the two editions is huge. The games have a similar core mechanic - d20 + modifiers needs to exceed a target value for the person rolling the die to win whatever contest they're taking part in - but otherwise they're quite dissimilar. I did a bit of digging and found another person who asked for general differences between the editions (though there are surely more) - you may want to read replies in this thread for these.

Most Druid-specific stuff is in the second Player's Handbook, and there are many new powers and options in Primal Power. The 6 _____ power books are basically sourcebooks for classes with a particular power source (there are 2 for Martial), which are thematically linked.

A druid is a Primal Controller. As a Controller, their intended role is mostly wide-area debuffs and battlefield control. They are most effective when they deny their targets options - giving an enemy -2 attack is kind of nice, but it's nowhere near as powerful as making an enemy slowed, and other conditions are even stronger. Druids do not get an animal companion by default, and Wild Shape doesn't change their stats. Wild Shape does, however, change which powers they can use.

[Dimers]

Two druid subtypes are given in PHB2, and two more appear in Primal Power. They're all functional, though swarm druids have weird defense mechanics compared to most 4e classes.

Many druid attack powers are "beast form" and many are not. You can only use "beast form" powers while wildshaped, and you can only use the others while you're in your normal form. Likewise, certain feats only function while you're wildshaped. If you multiclass, you can't use other classes' powers while wildshaped, either. It should come as no surprise that the beast form powers are more likely to be melee and the others are more likely to be ranged/AoE (but it's not a hard-and-fast rule).

Some utility powers and feats change your mechanics while you're wildshaped, but by default you otherwise stay the same.

Wildshaping only takes a moment -- a minor action, the equivalent of a swift action in 3.X. You can change back and forth a few times over the course of a battle, and if you take both "beast form" and normal attacks, you'll need to.

A druid uses an implement -- by default either a staff or a handheld totem object -- to change and enhance their attacks, regardless of what shape they're in.

3.X druids can prep lots of utility spells. 4e druids get the same number of powers as anyone else, but get the Ritual Caster feat free, and are always trained in the second-most versatile skill for using rituals. Most people find rituals too expensive and time-consuming to use, but they're the best equivalent you'll find to 3.X utility spells.

4e druids don't know how to use heavy armors or shields, and are encouraged not to do so. That doesn't make them notably more vulnerable than other combatants -- in fact, their hide armor proficiency is pretty good, and they're more durable than most good "controller"-role classes.

Unlike in 3.X, character race plays a big part in what kind of druid you end up with. Racial stat boosts, speed and powers all make a difference.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

To the excellent answers above, I should add: 4E actively encourages you to refluff, so the question also comes close to being meaningless. Yes, the above answers are excellent at explaining what the 4e "druid" class looks like, but I have used said class to create werewolves, transformation mechas, and my currently active The Swarm-style character. I believe I have never played an actual "yay nature" druid, though, even though I have built a half-dozen characters with the class named druid.

You want a nature lover with an animal companion that destroys enemies? Use the ranger class. Rather be the healer with animal companion? Shaman. Or even grab the fey companion background and simply add an animal companion to whatever class tickles your fancy, and then refluff.

In fact, my recommendation to someone playing 4E for the first time is: don't worry about the class. We can help you pick the right one. Tell us what you want your character to be able to do, and we can tell you which class will get closest; the rest is just changing the fluff text to meet your needs.

Grey Wolf

[GPuzzle]

A few races I recommend to be a Druid:
-Elf (Dex+Wis)
-Drow (Dex+Wis, or the same stats as an elf)
-Dwarf (Con+Wis)
-Half-Elf (Con+Wis)
-Human (Wis only, focus on Wisdom and choose a secondary, keep that a close second, because you should put your sole +2 bonus to a stat in Wisdom)
-Razorclaw Shifter (Dex+Wis)

Also, 4e assumes an 18 post racial.

[Knaight]

Yeah, the list of differences between the two editions is huge. The games have a similar core mechanic - d20 + modifiers needs to exceed a target value for the person rolling the die to win whatever contest they're taking part in - but otherwise they're quite dissimilar. I did a bit of digging and found another person who asked for general differences between the editions (though there are surely more) - you may want to read replies in this thread for these.

I wouldn't go that far. They are distinctly different games, and more different than would generally be expected from an edition change (e.g. GURPS 3e and GURPS 4e are way closer together than D&D 3e and D&D 4e). I wouldn't quite go to dissimilar though. They both aim at fantasy with larger than life characters, both use a class and level system with a focus on abilities granted from the class, many of the target values, modifiers, etc. are the exact same or highly similar (e.g. AC is still there, the 3 saves are now 3 defenses that mathematically are highly similar, there's skill overlap). The editions are still clearly within the same general family of games, and much closer to each other than to many other traditional games (again, GURPS), let alone the more esoteric stuff.

[Mando Knight]

Most Druid-specific stuff is in the second Player's Handbook, and there are many new powers and options in Primal Power. The 6 _____ power books are basically sourcebooks for classes with a particular power source (there are 2 for Martial), which are thematically linked.

A druid is a Primal Controller. As a Controller, their intended role is mostly wide-area debuffs and battlefield control. They are most effective when they deny their targets options - giving an enemy -2 attack is kind of nice, but it's nowhere near as powerful as making an enemy slowed, and other conditions are even stronger. Druids do not get an animal companion by default, and Wild Shape doesn't change their stats. Wild Shape does, however, change which powers they can use.

There is also the Sentinel Druid, a Primal Leader (healer/buffer/enabler) from Heroes of Forgotten Kingdoms (HoFK), widely considered to be inferior to the PHB2 Druid and has an animal companion but no Wild Shape, and the Protector Druid, another Controller variant from Heroes of the Feywild, with a focus on summoning (but gets neither Wild Shape nor an animal companion out of the box).

It's mostly considered inferior because while the PHB2 Druid is a solid Controller, the Sentinel's ability as a Leader relies mostly on its ability to boss a bear or wolf around. The puppy lets you count as flanking whenever you attack an enemy next to it and the bear gives a nice bonus to defenses when you're standing next to it, but other Leaders can have the Barbarian take another swing at the enemy, or provide more healing to the party, or give attack bonuses to characters that are already flanking the enemy...

Also note that summoned creatures (and the Sentinel's Animal Companion) use your actions, though most Druid summons have "Instinctive Actions" that they'll take if you don't boss them around.

[Epinephrine]

There is also the Sentinel Druid, a Primal Leader (healer/buffer/enabler) from Heroes of Forgotten Kingdoms (HoFK), widely considered to be inferior to the PHB2 Druid and has an animal companion but no Wild Shape.

There's also also the Protector Druid, from Heroes of the Feywild. Nominally a controller, it concentrates on summoning creatures with its daily powers. This is a non-shapeshifting spellcasting druid.

[Cloud]

In 4e Druid actually reminds me a lot of the PHB2 shape-shifting variant for the 3.5 Druid, in that a 4e Druid doesn't have an animal companion, and can take a beast form that doesn't completely rearrange your stats at will. (Well, at least the builds from them in the PHB2.)

However as has been answered above, 3.5 and 4e are quite different, particularly for spellcasters, though for me the 4e druid feels like a druid, the 3.5 druid felt like playing a monster with his pet monster that sometimes summoned more monsters if calling down fire didn't work.

[deathwolf669]

First of all thank you all for the responses.

Well in 3.5 I tried to use my druid as crowed control and our parties second melee combatant with my AC as back up and summons to add support else where on the battlefield.

So if this is a whole different ball game, how does the wildshape differ? Is it still turn into 1 of several beasties and eat people or do I only have 1 or 2 shapes?

If I can take an AC with any class, how do I do that (the specific traits/feats please) and which is the best summoner class?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

First of all thank you all for the responses.

Well in 3.5 I tried to use my druid as crowed control and our parties second melee combatant with my AC as back up and summons to add support else where on the battlefield.

So if this is a whole different ball game, how does the wildshape differ? Is it still turn into 1 of several beasties and eat people or do I only have 1 or 2 shapes?

If I can take an AC with any class, how do I do that (the specific traits/feats please) and which is the best summoner class?

Crowd control is the controller class. The best is wizard, but the druid is not bad. The best summoner is the druid, hands down, because his summons usually don't require actions on your part to attack (but don't get opportunity attacks - those are rare to non-existant depending on your DM's play style, though, so you may not miss them).

In 4E the animal you turn into is fluff. Your stats change based on feats alone, not on what you say you change into. You could change into a different animal each time (you plan to charge, so you turn into a rhino. You plan to retreat, so you turn into an ostrich, etc.)

AC can be taken in many different ways. The easiest, as I said, is the fey beast trainer. I understand that bear and displacer beast are usually considered "best", but the differences are small.

Grey Wolf

[Epinephrine]

Which is the best summoner class?

I'm going to agree that the druid is a strong summoner, I'm not with my books, but I think that the wizard and the artificer can also do ok at this.
The protector druid's dailies are all summons; a vanilla druid is also able to select a summon with each daily; I have not actually compared them to see which is better. Here are some facts about them, though:
Base druid:

• Each summon is different, from a different daily power
• Summons are implement powers, with all that entails
• Summons attacks are based on your accuracy

Protector druid:

• Summons are from a list of summons accessible to you based on level and type (guardian or predator)
• Summons have accuracy based on your level, not attributes (all are at level +5); may be less accurate, but better if you want to invest in other stats
• Summons often have a melee power (which they can use instinctively) and another power that may be a burst/blast; these can be worth using a standard action for
• Summons are not implement powers, no implement based effects/bonuses
• New summons become accessible at level 15 and level 29, making for some sudden jumps in effectiveness of the summons.

If you want to basically be a human with a pet and summons, the Protector Druid may be a good choice; you can take an AC via Fey beast tamer, and you get summons that get better as you level. You don't have to worry about switching forms and having "beast" keyword powers, but you miss out on the melee effectiveness of the druid beast form stuff. Many of the druid powers are beast form powers which you wouldn't have access to, though. I'm not sure if the Protector Druid's summons are better than the other summons or not, having never seen one played or played one, but some aspects of them look good on paper.

[deathwolf669]

Ok from my reading so far, I am looking at being a summoner druid but I cannot decide between Guardian or Swarm druid. Grey Wolf would you mind giving me a quick brief on how both would play out and I can pick the best that suits me.

I normally go for the Guardian line of things given the description in the Primal power book, but I like the idea of the swarm and having reduced/no damage from some attacks.

I also have no idea which race to go for, I have the 3 PHB books in front of me at the mo, I might play dragonborn as I wanted to play one in 3.5 or I might look else where.

[Epinephrine]

Ok from my reading so far, I am looking at being a summoner druid but I cannot decide between Guardian or Swarm druid. Grey Wolf would you mind giving me a quick brief on how both would play out and I can pick the best that suits me.

I normally go for the Guardian line of things given the description in the Primal power book, but I like the idea of the swarm and having reduced/no damage from some attacks.

I also have no idea which race to go for, I have the 3 PHB books in front of me at the mo, I might play dragonborn as I wanted to play one in 3.5 or I might look else where.

Armour class for the swarm druid is difficult, as they don't get Con to AC. They can reduce incoming damage while in swarm form, but this may not make up for the incoming damage after adjustment to post MM3 stats, and doesn't protect against the effects that the extra hits will have on you. If you were to pick a standard shapeshifting druid I would encourage choosing one with a better AC, especially if you are going to be using your shapeshifting melee powers.

[Inevitability]

I might play dragonborn as I wanted to play one in 3.5 or I might look else where.

If you wanna play a druid, there are better things than Dragonborn. It can work though. Firstly, you fix the primary problem of a wildshaped druid by keeping your Dragon Breath in beast form (firebreathing spider swarm FTW!), and you can get either secondary stat (I recommend dexterity)
Actually, you can make a decent character with this. You could even fluff your Wild Shape as turning into an dragon, as you still keep all the dragon-y stuff from being an dragonborn.
...
Okay, now I want to play a dragondruid.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Ok from my reading so far, I am looking at being a summoner druid but I cannot decide between Guardian or Swarm druid. Grey Wolf would you mind giving me a quick brief on how both would play out and I can pick the best that suits me.

The biggest danger of playing a swarm summoner is that while the swarm form is ridiculously tough, it's toughness is compensated with a lower AC (so you get hit more often, but for far less damage). However, this does not propagate to your summons, who use your defences but don't get the damage resist, so your summons will be a lot weaker than with other druid subclasses.

As to how they play out, they are not that different. What makes the characters different is not so much the subclass as much as the feats and powers. All powers are available to all subclasses (with minor variations), and the summoner feats you will want to pick up are available to all druids. If you get that far, the best thing for a summoner druid is the Primal Summoner level-10 option, which at level 16 gives your summons a free move per turn while still being able to attack without ordering them. This option will be available to you regardless of subclass.

That's pretty much the bottom line, I think, that you should get out of this: a summoner druid is not a subclass, it is a build available to all druids, so your choices of subclass will not affect the result all that much. If I were rebuilding my swarm summoner, I'd probably go with guardian instead and just fluff the swarm part, or attempt to convince the DM to let me use the pre-errata AC feat. If you aren't interested in the swarm power of resisting damage (which stacks with actual Resist), go with Guardian instead.

Grey Wolf

[deathwolf669]

Will go guardian then, thanks for the sheet, will refer to it while making my beast to be.