Whats your stance of Dragon Magazines?

[Jeff the Green]

I allow it (along with Dragon Compendium, other third party, and homebrew) on a case-by case basis, and I have a few that I allow preemptively, such as eidetic wizard, mystic ranger, tibbit, and soulmelds and vestiges. Most of the time I'm actually worried about underpowered options. Particularly new base classes, because casters' lists only pull from core and mundanes are, well, mundane.

I often ban at least tier 1 (or nerf it to oblivion, in the case of my homebrew world), so I like the options like wild monk and mystic ranger that allow someone to take over the druid's functions. I also generally think martial monk is quite fine. Fighter feats have egregious requirements for feats that are less powerful than 2nd level spls.

Of course, this all assumes I can access it. This isn't normally an issue thanks to Scribd and friends who have issues.

Spoiler: Regarding Spell Compendium

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i really like Spell Compendium. While it does give tier 1s more versatility, it also gives them more middle of the road options. The orb spells, for instance, are better than fireball (a horrible spell) but worse than core BFC spells, summons, or buff/debuff. It also gives paladins and rangers more options, and while it should have done so in the spell blocks, it also adds much needed spells to shugenjas and healers.

Spoiler: On ToB

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Initiating is not Vancian. Only wizards, archivists, clerics, and Druids are, and even the last two aren't pure.

However, I do wish they hadn't done the whole "nine spell maneuver levels, gain a new spell maneuver level every odd caster initiator level" thing. I'd rather have interesting prerequisites on the maneuvers or multiple functions for each one, akin to tactical feats, unlocked by skill ranks, feats, or BAB.

[Coidzor]

ToB: And thats why its the least balanced: It didnt try to fix anything, or help anything. Organization people can get past (Oh god Vestiges) but i dont get why people dont understand that the whole book is a thesis on "how not to integrate new material" and i dont get why people dont understand that.

Dragon: Realistically, for every Alternate Spell Source, for Every Chicken Infested, and for Every Wild monk (yes its balanced relatively. that doesnt mean its not broken) in dragon, there are a thousand other options with more reasonable construction. the stuff that is broken beyond reason is at least reasonably rare enough that banning the 100ish issues for third is unreasonable for imbalance. the Anarch Razors themselves have colossal issues offsetting their sweet damage die and near reach. i at least wouldnt be too annoyed if the material is banned because its not that common.

It multiclasses well, better than any of the other subsystems they introduced and errataing all of the martial base classes would have been kludgey at best and kind of a nightmare in practice. That said, yes, it would've been nice if it included more ACFs or optional rules for tacking martial adept progression or even some halfway decent adaptation suggestions.

So your argument for Wild Monk being broken is that Wildshape is inherently broken, then?

[toapat]

And? As I stated earlier that's not effecting balance in any meaningful way. Invalidating monk when monk was already the class every other class in core, including fighters for god's sake, laughed at is no change to balance. Same thing with the other mundanes.

invalidating the monk? thats fine because they dont work. Also its an ACF. the same comparison can be said of a Penetrating Attack rogue against a regular one. the problem is you cant name a mundane who can outperform a mid optimization Wild Monk.

the problem i have with wild monk is it invalidates everyone without a casting system. Everyone else still beats it, but its higher power then the ToB classes

So your argument for Wild Monk being broken is that Wildshape is inherently broken, then?

its a bit more complex then that, but it boils down to Wildshape shouldnt be accessible with other ACFs (alternatively, a D8 HD commoner). What a Wildmonk still has access to, and when fully optimized, the class is the highest power mundane in the game. Barbarian doesnt hold a candle.

[CIDE]

Because it basically invalidates the normal monk. Nevermind that a straight barbarian invalidates the normal monk as an unarmed melee combatant, even in Core...

But it's still weaker than a normal core Druid and probably even a wildshape Ranger since even they can get relatively awesome spellcasting on top of it all. Wild Monk is a bandaid to help make Monk useful at something.

Also, I know you were partially being sarcastic. Just... Kneejerk reactions all the way.

GAHH!!!

invalidating the monk? thats fine because they dont work. Also its an ACF. the same comparison can be said of a Penetrating Attack rogue against a regular one. the problem is you cant name a mundane who can outperform a mid optimization Wild Monk.

the problem i have with wild monk is it invalidates everyone without a casting system. Everyone else still beats it, but its higher power then the ToB classes



its a bit more complex then that, but it boils down to Wildshape shouldnt be accessible with other ACFs (alternatively, a D8 HD commoner). What a Wildmonk still has access to, and when fully optimized, the class is the highest power mundane in the game. Barbarian doesnt hold a candle.

There's probably dozens of non-ToB and non-magical martial builds that would slaughter the Wild Monk in a fight. Including but not limited to a Barbar charger build.

[HunterOfJello]

For me:

Homebrew = Almost always banned.
Dragon Magazine = You have to run it by me first, but if it isn't overly ridiculous then it's cool.

[Jeff the Green]

the problem i have with wild monk is it invalidates everyone without a casting system. Everyone else still beats it, but its higher power then the ToB classes

Mundane classes were already "invalidated." And I wouldn't exactly say incarnum classes or binder have a casting system, since they're basically just picking class features from a list each day, not effects each round. Moreover, barbarian is probably the better ubercharger because of pounce and power attack.

And I'd actually dispute "invalidated." Sure, wild monk outclasses subsystem non-users. But it's pretty restricted to a single archetype. If I want to be a knight in shining armor, it's wild monk that's eliminated from the running. Likewise a mounted warrior, a tavern brawler, a Parcival type, or just anybody that doesn't fight in the shape of an animal.

Wild monk allows a valid archetype (ascetic in the woods who changes into animals is fairly common in some groups of literature) that didn't exist before, has middle-of-the-road power, and is probably fun to play. It's not bad design at all just because it's better than bad classes.

For me:

Homebrew = Almost always banned.
Dragon Magazine = You have to run it by me first, but if it isn't overly ridiculous then it's cool.

I find this interesting. Why ban homebrew but not Dragon when at least a bunch of stuff on this site's boards has been looked over by editors (volunteer, sure, but still competent ones) while Dragon... wasn't so much? You have to do the same amount of looking-over in the end.

[Larkas]

the problem is you cant name a mundane who can outperform a mid optimization Wild Monk.

Eh, if you're talking pure damage, an uber-charger can outperform it no problem, specially specific builds like the Little Red Raiding Hood. If you're talking versatility in addition to power, I suspect a wild shaping ranger will also outperform it, specially a ranger/master of many forms/warshaper, though a few of those tricks are admittedly also open to the wild monk (though mystic ranger, or even regular ranger, casting is not).

Don't get me wrong, the wild monk is a good class. It's just not overwhelmingly good (and hence, not unbalanced). To each their own, in any case.

[toapat]

Eh, if you're talking pure damage, an uber-charger can outperform it no problem, specially specific builds like the Little Red Raiding Hood. If you're talking versatility in addition to power, I suspect a wild shaping ranger will also outperform it, specially a ranger/master of many forms/warshaper, though a few of those tricks are admittedly also open to the wild monk.

Don't get me wrong, the wild monk is a good class. It's just not overwhelmingly good (and hence, not unbalanced). To each their own, in any case.

thing is, wild monk can just take Raging Monk. combined with proper selection of form you can just get pounce and match the Ubercharger for damage. Except your a dragon, and the Ubercharger isnt.

the problem is wild monk only locks out a small number of AFCs completely, what remains is still incredibly powerful and can be stacked.

[Larkas]

thing is, wild monk can just take Raging Monk. combined with proper selection of form you can just get pounce and match the Ubercharger for damage. Except your a dragon, and the Ubercharger isnt.

the problem is wild monk only locks out a small number of AFCs completely, what remains is still incredibly powerful and can be stacked.

Hmmm, IMHO, you're greatly overestimating the synergy between those ACFs. Sure, you gain rage - at the cost of flurry of blows. You're reducing the return for the pounce investment, even with whirling frenzy. Furthermore, you're attacking from a lower BAB than a traditional charger. Also, your return from power attack + shock trooper is half from that of a charger for most of your attacks. Lastly, you're still not better off than a wild shaping ranger, who is also a better user of Dragon Wild Shape.

Again, it's a fun and interesting ACF, it's just not broken.

[CIDE]

thing is, wild monk can just take Raging Monk. combined with proper selection of form you can just get pounce and match the Ubercharger for damage. Except your a dragon, and the Ubercharger isnt.

the problem is wild monk only locks out a small number of AFCs completely, what remains is still incredibly powerful and can be stacked.

Except a Wild Monk never gets to be a dragon. That is unless you take Master of Many Forms. In which case it's Master of Many forms that wins and not the Wild Monk winning. Especially since that's basically the weakest character option to even get into Master of Many Forms. And as a Wild Monk with 10 levels of MoMF by level 20 the best you can do is a 20 HD Gargantuan Dragon and all you get (unless you optimized feat selection) are it's Ex abilities. That selection isn't quite as wonderful as you might think it is. I don't think you quite understand exactly how much damage some of these other options can be dishing out.

[Curmudgeon]

Except a Wild Monk never gets to be a dragon.

True, but you can get moderately close with Dragon Wild Shape (Draconomicon, page 105).

[CIDE]

True, but you can get moderately close with Dragon Wild Shape (Draconomicon, page 105).

Forgot about that feat. Either way it is limited to only small and medium sizes and doesn't stack (short of DM fiat) with the MoMF class feature. That said the dragon forms aren't even the best options for a MoMF or the Wild Monk.

[Snowbluff]

I only allow it on a case by case basis. Availability and quality are generally bad, so I rather would not have to deal with a new headache.

[Jeff the Green]

thing is, wild monk can just take Raging Monk. combined with proper selection of form you can just get pounce and match the Ubercharger for damage. Except your a dragon, and the Ubercharger isnt.

the problem is wild monk only locks out a small number of AFCs completely, what remains is still incredibly powerful and can be stacked.

...Rage does not an übercharger make. You need Power Attack, Shock Trooper, and Leap Attack along with a two-handed weapon (or lance, if mounted). Rage gives you +3 damage on primary natural attacks and +1 on secondary ones.