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Thread: Smash Brothers 4 General
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2014-07-14, 10:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Smash Brothers 4 News - Release windows, characters, and more.
Oh my gosh! The avatar is in! YAY!I wish there was a smilie for excited.
I wonder if they'll play off the fact that you could respec him into everything, or if they're just going to have her use tomes all the time. I don't really care what they do I'm just happy that I get to play Robin.
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2014-07-14, 10:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Smash Brothers 4 News - Release windows, characters, and more.
It looks like Robin's gimmick will be switching between different swords and tomes, since both a bronze and a levin sword are shown, as well as all the various spells being showcased.
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2014-07-14, 10:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Smash Brothers 4 News - Release windows, characters, and more.
I'm just glad they finally confirmed the Captain. It's not SSB without him hamming it up.
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2014-07-14, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Smash Brothers 4 News - Release windows, characters, and more.
I wouldn't agree. Four unique FE characters would be, but clones are nothing to celebrate. Which is part of why I'm really hoping Lucina is just a costume.
Huh, good catch on the bronze sword, I actually hadn't noticed that. Wonder how that will work?
Actually, I really wonder how the tomes will work. He said in the trailer that he can only use them so many times, so perhaps he switches after a certain number of uses of one tome? If so, I wonder if there's an option to change manually? And if they come in a set order, or are random?Toph Pony avatar by Dirtytabs. Thanks!
"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis
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2014-07-14, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Smash Brothers 4 News - Release windows, characters, and more.
There will probably be a "pluck" mechanic like Captain Olimar and Peach... note that the latter has apparently had her smash attack normalized, so presumably her down special is also more predictable.
It'll probably either cycle through the elements and strengths of the tomes in a predictable fashion like Olimar's Pikmin or have an execution command like Dancing Blade. I don't think fully random tome selection is probable. Customization could also influence which set of tomes you can draw from, such as only Thunder, only Fire, etc.
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2014-07-14, 11:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Smash Brothers 4 News - Release windows, characters, and more.
It's a pleasant surprise to have a Fire Emblem character other than a pure swordsman make it into Smash Bros. It's something I had hoped would happen with Brawl and I think it would make for some interesting game play. I just hope Robin doesn't suffer from what Megaman seemed to in my limited playtime with him... Over-abundance of ranged abilities and very little KO power as a result. No clue on how the tomes are going to work. Maybe some sort of cycle where there's a set order on which tome will be pulled next? Or possibly one input is fire attacks, one is lightning, one is wind, and the duration that you charge it determines whether it's wind, elwind, arcwind, or etc.
As for alternate costumes and the like, I've got no complaints. Many of the various Fire Emblem lords would probably play similarly. Having them as alternate costumes seems like a good way to include characters from other games and show lords other than Marth some love. (Not complaining, but I'm still surprised Ike made it back.)Last edited by TheSummoner; 2014-07-14 at 11:49 AM.
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2014-07-14, 12:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Smash Brothers 4 News - Release windows, characters, and more.
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Chained Cambion Avatar by Elder Tsofu.
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2014-07-14, 12:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Smash Brothers 4 News - Release windows, characters, and more.
Just as a counter to that, on the mobile version of the site she does have her own banner, just not with the artwork picture next to it, since the artwork for her, Robin and Captain Falcon is the same one and is on Robin's page. Also, the Smash Bros. Facebook page had her own 'challenger approaching' picture. So I think that argument is just a result of poor website formatting rather than her not being a 'true newcomer'.
That said, having seen the video she is almost certainly a Marth clone, which is disappointing. But Robin is hype enough for me to ignore that.
And as for the Gematsu leak, it does make me worried for Shulk's chances, though I won't be shedding any tears for the Chorus Men.Avatar by Lord Fullbladder
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2014-07-14, 12:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Smash Brothers 4 News - Release windows, characters, and more.
So Robin is revealed huh?
Smash Bros 4 just jumped up from might buy to "I'm gonna buy a Wii U and camp out to get the game the moment it is released". I'm so happy that text cannot adequately express my excitement and delight. And then they go on and give us Lucina too. That is paying your proper respects to Awakening. Now Anna as an assist trophy please.
Interestingly, they even went for the hair colour and style that I had internalized as being the "proper" hair. Both for male and female Robin. That's cool too.
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2014-07-14, 01:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Smash Brothers 4 News - Release windows, characters, and more.
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2014-07-14, 01:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Smash Brothers 4 News - Release windows, characters, and more.
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2014-07-14, 07:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Smash Brothers 4 News - Release windows, characters, and more.
Well, I guess if Earthbound gets a reveal like this one in a few weeks, they'll be able to start going back to series that I enjoy from then on out. Maybe Teddy, because we need more swords.
"Okay, so I'm going to quick draw and dual wield these one-pound caltrops as improvised weapons..."
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"Oh, hey, look! Blue Eyes Black Lotus!" "Wait what, do you sacrifice a mana to the... Does it like, summon a... What would that card even do!?" "Oh, it's got a four-energy attack. Completely unviable in actual play, so don't worry about it."
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2014-07-14, 08:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Smash Brothers 4 News - Release windows, characters, and more.
Eh, you could always get a detail like when a reveal is happening wrong and still have accurate overall information. Claiming a character is playable and then having it proven he isn't is much more definite proof.
Though thinking it over, I don't think the leak was wholly fake. It came in several parts, the first of which, from before E3 last year, both provided the strongest evidence for it (Wii Fit Trainer, the specific name "Mii Fighters") and has been shown to be wholly accurate. It's possible that the person who received that leak took advantage of the credibility that would give him to give out false information the second time and onward - for whatever people's usual reasons for making up false leaks are, I'd imagine.
If that's the case, I'd expect them to notice and fix the error in relatively short order. We'll see if that happens. As-is though, between that and her being shoved into a newcomer trailer that focuses on someone else who isn't taking moves from another character, I think there's every reason to expect she could just be a costume.
The same - minus the "worried" part, anyway, since I haven't really played Xenoblade to develop any attachment to Shulk.
Honestly, I do feel like I should be happier that there might be more surprise characters now, but at this point, I'm really not. I've gotten my most-wanted characters, Mega Man and Palutena, so I'm pretty content there. And other characters that I'd be excited to see are either impossible (Lyn and Midna, who are assist trophies, and I think kinda missed their one chance with Brawl anyway) or seem unlikely to me (Isaac, Krystal, Mewtwo, Bayonetta). I guess it does make it seem less likely that Lucas will be cut, but I've always wound up changing mains with each new game anyway, so even that's relatively little to excite me.
That's just their default looks. Which, honestly, I really dislike personally, and I think it's in large part because of the hair. The white color in particular just doesn't look right to me for some reason, even for an anime-style character. Which does kinda make me hope there's some limited ability to customize their appearance, even though that's probably not gonna happen since we already have Miis for that.
Um, yes, that is pretty much exactly what I said. The "different voice actors" part was in addition to pointing out that they're different people, not the main point.Toph Pony avatar by Dirtytabs. Thanks!
"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis
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2014-07-15, 01:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Smash Brothers 4 News - Release windows, characters, and more.
While this is nice, I'd appreciate it a lot more if they were a bit more different. We have a myrmidon, two pseudo-myrmidon lords (though RD Ike is a bit closer to the Hero class) and the avatar, myrmidon style. Having someone like Ephraim or Nephenee in, or even a more ranged character would be nice.
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2014-07-15, 02:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Smash Brothers 4 News - Release windows, characters, and more.
Myrmidons? What? Even assuming Lucina isn't just a costume, we've got three Lords, one of them a heavweight bruiser, one of them a lighter-mid-weight focused on quick attacks with good reach, and a swordsman/mage hybrid in the Avatar. You could maybe argue that Marth's style, and by extension Lucina, somewhat mimics what a playable myrmidon might do, but Ike and the Avatar aren't even close.
And really, Ephraim and Nephenee would never even be serious candidates. Characters for Smash aren't picked based on how they fight, but on their role in the series and, to at least some extent, popularity among fans. Nephenee would be out due to the former - she's not even remotely a main character of her games. Ephraim is at least one of the main characters of his game, but his game is also a pretty unpopular one for the series, holding no real special place in its history or in most fans' esteem. No, what we got are all very good character choices - unless Lucina is actually a clone rather than a costume they decided to play up due to Awakening's popularity, in which case that doesn't make a lot of sense. But two of the most popular Lords in the franchise, who are also the only two with more than one game to their name, and one of the main characters of Awakening certainly makes a lot more sense as character choices for a game like Smash than the likes of Ephraim or Nephenee ever would.Toph Pony avatar by Dirtytabs. Thanks!
"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis
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2014-07-15, 02:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Smash Brothers 4 News - Release windows, characters, and more.
So Sakurai's picture and comments today confirm that Lucina is a Marth clone, but without the sweetspot and with a smaller hurtbox. However, she is not a costume and is her own character!
And in terms of minor character from the series, I agree with Zevox in that you couldn't really get Nephenee or other popular characters like Owain or Tharja in because there's not even any guarantee that the majority of players use them. It would be nice though if some of the Lords could've used their secondary weapons, like Lucina's lance or Ike's axe.Last edited by Altaria87; 2014-07-15 at 02:25 AM.
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2014-07-15, 02:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Smash Brothers 4 News - Release windows, characters, and more.
Versatility. It worked for a variety of games in a variety of ways... Provided the programmers did it right. Pistol grip, controller grip, we even had one game I recall that worked best in a reverse pistol, right hand on center and left hand on the D-Pad.
The GameCube controller, which as I recall sort of built on the dreamcat controller (one of my eternal favorites!) was a step up, but it simply was a matter of figuring out what worked and what was needed.
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2014-07-15, 04:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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2014-07-15, 09:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Smash Brothers 4 News - Release windows, characters, and more.
And that decision just baffles me. Being a costume seems like the perfect way to handle the character. They're doing those in significant numbers for the first time now (there was Wario in Brawl, but he was the only one there), she looks and would logically play so much like Marth but, partially because of that, doesn't really warrant the effort to make unique. Seems like the sort of thing to throw in just because it's easy and will please a lot of people. No need to waste time, or invite the inevitable complaints about a wasted roster slot, by giving her minor differences that amount to creating another clone. Surely they know by now how many people dislike those.
Ugh, oh well, no changing it now. So we're on two such characters, with her and Toon Link. I just hope this doesn't mean they're going to leave Ganondorf unaltered, or give no consideration to de-cloning Falco even further than they did in Brawl, or changing up Wolf and Lucas' special moves and final smashes. Especially Ganondorf - he really deserves to have a moveset that actually reflects his character, and it still baffles me that they didn't give him one going into Brawl.Toph Pony avatar by Dirtytabs. Thanks!
"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis
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2014-07-15, 12:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Smash Brothers 4 News - Release windows, characters, and more.
I really don't mind Lucina's clone-ness much at all. Most people know that clones aren't actually 'taking up a slot' and additional FE and female representation even if with a clone is better than none. Besides, apparently some of the animations shown by Lucina in the trailer are somewhat distinct from Marth's (her nair seems to have three hits instead of two, her up-b has more horizontal distance) so she may still play differently.
That said, if Ganondorf is still a Captain Falcon clone I will be quite displeased, there's no excuse for him not to have a unique moveset in his third game when his being a clone never made sense to begin with. A friend and I even discussed the possibility the other day that he could be replaced by Demise, who could have a unique moveset.Avatar by Lord Fullbladder
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2014-07-15, 02:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Smash Brothers 4 News - Release windows, characters, and more.
Changing Ganondorf could be divisive, though. He's had his same moveset for two games, and changing him to something completely new is essentially removing Ganondorf and replacing him with a new character. I've always liked playing Ganondorf and felt his style was sufficiently different to separate him from the Cap'n.
As such, I've got a divided opinion. On the one hand, clones are bad and we should have as few as possibble. On the other, if they change Ganondorf I'm losing a favorite character.
I think it's most likely that he won't get changed. After two games, he's a pretty established character by this point, even if he is a clone.
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2014-07-15, 11:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Smash Brothers 4 News - Release windows, characters, and more.
Personally I think the difference in speed and power is enough for Ganondorf (who I much prefer playing over Captain Falcon) but we'll see.
I'm hoping Lucina won't be a total clone like the pic of the day comments imply, but has subtle differences between moves like say between Fox and Falco. But if not, I wouldn't mind trying a tip-less Marth.
The nice thing about Lucina being a clone though is that it reinvigorates hope for Lucas, Wolf, Falco and Ganondorf. With that in mind, I don't see anyone from Brawl being cut except Snake, Squirtle and Ivysaur. That would bring us to 47 characters, so I'm betting on a total of 49 with two yet unseen newcomers (random makes 50 slots for a nice 5x10 grid). That would exactly 10 more than Brawl with a total of 13 newcomers - both less than the Melee-Brawl transition, but still makes for a nicely beefed up roster (and obviously the rate of increase between Melee and Brawl was pretty unsustainable).
I could also see a 48 grid with more cuts or fewer newcomers, or even a 4x13 52 grid, but I'm sticking with 49 as my final guess.Last edited by Hytheter; 2014-07-15 at 11:29 PM.
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2014-07-16, 12:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Smash Brothers 4 News - Release windows, characters, and more.
Agreed completely.
Frankly? Screw that. Ganondorf being a clone in Melee was forgivable, because the game was rushed near the end - hence the large number of clones to begin with. But afterward, there's no excuse. The moveset he's been stuck with does not at all reflect his character. He's a sorcerer, shape-shifter, and occasionally a swordsman. He should not be fighting using a bunch of moves copied from an acrobatic fist-fighter, and no amount of changes to how fast and strong they are compared to the Captain can ever make up for that. It's pure nonsense that they didn't change him in Brawl, and it will be again if they don't now.
If they're at all concerned about upsetting people who actually played him as-is, they can throw in a new character who gets that moveset for all I care (I've seen some people recommend an F-Zero character called Blood Falcon for that before). But it doesn't belong on Ganondorf.
I hope the reverse. A big part of the problem with clones is that they're wasting time making characters that more or less the same as another, but with small differences very few will care about. That's why being a costume is better - no extra time spent on such pointless exercises, just give us the option to play as the character using the moves of whoever is appropriate, and spend that time on characters who will actually be unique instead. (Also, the differences be Fox and Falco ceased to be all that subtle in Brawl, where Falco got a number of his moves changed. Could still use more, of course, but still.)
Ganondorf was never going to be cut, no matter what they do with his moves. He's one of the three major characters of one of Nintendo's most popular franchises. They wouldn't dream of removing him any more than they would Bowser.
Falco and Wolf I haven't been worried about since they announced that a new Star Fox game is coming back at E3. When Star Fox looked like a dead franchise there was cause for concern I think, but with that gone, I expect both to be back.
Also, funny thing about Lucas and Wolf: they're not clones. The only things they share with Ness and Fox are special moves and a final smash, and even within those they each have a special move that is so different as to be more "inspired by" Fox and Ness' moves than copied from them: Wolf's blaster and Lucas' PK Fire. So there's very little that needs to be done to make them cease even resembling Ness and Fox by even that little bit.Last edited by Zevox; 2014-07-16 at 08:01 AM.
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"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis
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2014-07-16, 02:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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2014-07-16, 07:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Smash Brothers 4 News - Release windows, characters, and more.
Toph Pony avatar by Dirtytabs. Thanks!
"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis
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2014-07-16, 08:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Smash Brothers 4 News - Release windows, characters, and more.
Yeah, no, I stand by my statement. Game and Watch is one of the least likely to be cut imo.
She's not a costume though. She already has her own roster slot, and some small differences. If they've already gone to the effort of modelling and animating her, giving her different hitboxes (offensively and defensively) they might as well go the extra mile to make the moves feel a little different. It could take as little as changing the speed or power of attacks, or the direction they send opponents in, which is basically all numerical as far as I know and would barely add any extra development time at all.
I guess it depends how strictly you define a clone. I am familiar with the differences - in fact I much Lucas and Wolf over Ness and Fox (Lucas' Up smash and Wolf's Side Smash make me very happy). But they do have some glaring similarities, and if "similarity to other characters" is a possible criteria for character removal then I'd expect them to be on the chopping block.Last edited by Hytheter; 2014-07-16 at 08:44 AM.
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2014-07-16, 09:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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I'm curious what the criteria for clone is then. Because honestly as of Brawl, Wolf and Lucas feel more similar to Fox and Ness than Ganondorf does to Captain Falcon. At least to me.
Last edited by Dienekes; 2014-07-16 at 09:25 AM.
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2014-07-16, 12:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Smash Brothers 4 News - Release windows, characters, and more.
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2014-07-16, 03:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Smash Brothers 4 News - Release windows, characters, and more.
Avatar Credit: the very talented PseudoStraw. Full image:Spoiler
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2014-07-16, 03:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Smash Brothers 4 News - Release windows, characters, and more.
Their side specials are very different, Ganondorf doesn't have the super knee thing, or really, most of his smashes are different than Caps. No double kick up smash, can't jab combo, have completely different final smashes. It all adds up to him just playing differently to me. When I play Wolf or Fox the only differences I notice are the gun dealing more damage but not spammable and the side special going at a 45 degree angle instead of straight. I know there's more to them, but they end up playing similar.