Smash Brothers 4 General

[Zevox]

I don't know how the Demo impressions or Sakurai's comments lead you to the reverse conclusion; from what I've heard the general consensus is that all the characters bar Zelda (who sucks) are pretty well balanced, and I'm sure Sakurai has stated several times that balance is important to him.

I've heard much the reverse - that the game has a fair few obvious balance issues, from character-specific ones (Mega Man lacking any killing power is a common complaint I've heard, to use just one example) to general gameplay ones (most attacks on all characters having a lot of recovery time and thus being unsafe on block or whiff, which would create a serious imbalance in favor of whatever characters have a good attack or two that is safe to use and encourage spamming those attacks). Which, really, isn't surprising, given how poorly balanced the rest of the series has been.

[Dienekes]

I've heard much the reverse - that the game has a fair few obvious balance issues, from character-specific ones (Mega Man lacking any killing power is a common complaint I've heard, to use just one example) to general gameplay ones (most attacks on all characters having a lot of recovery time and thus being unsafe on block or whiff, which would create a serious imbalance in favor of whatever characters have a good attack or two that is safe to use and encourage spamming those attacks). Which, really, isn't surprising, given how poorly balanced the rest of the series has been.

What I remember reading when the game was first announced was that SSB was always meant to be at least decently balanced, however, all the design decisions were made mostly by Sakurai so they're all from the perspective of one guy who is more interested in fun. This game was going to have more hands on deck to try and balance the thing better.

However, I doubt they'll be particularly successful. The games I know that are considered decently balanced now only got that way through rigorous patching after the game came out. Unless there are plans to implement such patches post release it probably won't be happening.

[Zevox]

What I remember reading when the game was first announced was that SSB was always meant to be at least decently balanced, however, all the design decisions were made mostly by Sakurai so they're all from the perspective of one guy who is more interested in fun. This game was going to have more hands on deck to try and balance the thing better.

However, I doubt they'll be particularly successful. The games I know that are considered decently balanced now only got that way through rigorous patching after the game came out. Unless there are plans to implement such patches post release it probably won't be happening.

Yes, I heard he mentioned the exact number of people he has helping him balance this game at E3, in fact. Twelve. Which, for a fighting game, is abysmally small. Just for an example, Arc System Works (BlazBlue, Persona Arena, Guilty Gear) does public play-testing of their games during development to get feedback on balance from multitudes of people in addition to the designers, and they still have plenty of balance issues in their games that require patching and whole new versions to tweak. And they take competitive play of their games far more seriously than Sakurai has ever seemed to.

So yeah, again, my impression is that even if he does care, Sakurai has no idea what he's doing as far as balancing these games goes.

[Rodin]

Given that you have to turn off huge chunks of features to get it to even resemble a competitive game, it's hardly a surprise.

Brawl was mostly a step up for me - the heavy slow characters weren't nearly as marginalized as they were in Melee, and the top-tier characters felt closer to the rest of the pack with the glaring exception of Meta-Knight.

Honestly, even a single post-release patch to say "Okay, these 3 characters are way out of line and these 3 characters suck, let's fix that" would be a welcome boon. Other than that, I'll continue to play on all the crazy stages with items turned on and let the randomness sort out the imbalances.

I frankly don't care how "tournament ready" the game is since that's not what I'll be playing anyway. I just hope they have Stock multiplayer this time, unlike having it fixed to a short score game like in Brawl.

Give me the option to pick between 2-4 players, put in a stage select like that in the new Mario Kart (random pick from those voted), and the option to pick Stock as my game-type. That's all I'll need to be a happy camper as long as every game doesn't turn into 4 Meta-Knights going at it.

[Mando Knight]

Brawl was mostly a step up for me - the heavy slow characters weren't nearly as marginalized as they were in Melee, and the top-tier characters felt closer to the rest of the pack with the glaring exception of Meta-Knight.

Heavy, slow characters still never got much of anywhere in the relatively-underdeveloped Brawl meta. Though if Bowser's performance at San Diego Comic-Con was a reliable gauge, a good player will be able to get kill shots a lot more reliably in 4 than even Brawl (where my favorite free-for-all tactic when not staying outside the fight completely was "use Ike, smash everything").

[Zevox]

Given that you have to turn off huge chunks of features to get it to even resemble a competitive game, it's hardly a surprise.

The game pits multiple players against each other in a fight to see who wins out in the end. That makes it a competitive game by definition: the gameplay is a competition. You need to turn off items and ignore some stages to make it a good competitive game - one where the outcome is more affected by player skill than anything else - but they've included the option to do that ever since the second game, which makes that just as much a feature of the series as games with items on the craziest stages.

[PhantomFox]

I think he means competitive in the professional sense.

[Zevox]

I think he means competitive in the professional sense.

That's whether or not the game attracts a competitive scene - which is what the "good competitive game" part I mentioned is about. With or without such a scene though, the game is still competitive by nature. Heck, Mario Party is technically a competitive game for similar reasons, it just will never attract a competitive scene because it's a mostly luck-driven, shallow one.

[PhantomFox]

So we're just quibbling over semantics then?

[Hytheter]

I just hope they have Stock multiplayer this time, unlike having it fixed to a short score game like in Brawl.

Brawl did have multiplayer stock matches. Unless you're specifically referring to online multiplayer in which case I wouldn't know.

[Zevox]

So we're just quibbling over semantics then?

Yes. But because what exactly makes Smash a "competitive game" is widely misunderstood, I feel it's important to correct this error when I see it.

Brawl did have multiplayer stock matches. Unless you're specifically referring to online multiplayer in which case I wouldn't know.

That is probably what he meant. I wouldn't hold my breath for it, though. The mere fact that they kept the "With Friends" vs "With Anyone" distinction is a pretty bad sign. I'd wager that aside from adding the "For Glory" mode, not much will have changed about the online features.

I just hope the netcode is at least better.

[Rodin]

Semantic quibbling aside, my point was that the game has never been designed for the professional level. The primary audience is people who are playing the crazy wacky version that tournament players turn their noses up at.

[Zevox]

Semantic quibbling aside, my point was that the game has never been designed for the professional level. The primary audience is people who are playing the crazy wacky version that tournament players turn their noses up at.

And yet the silly thing is, having the game be designed for the professional level wouldn't impact that primary audience in the slightest. Such players won't even know the kind of intricacies that higher-level play involves are there regardless, just as they didn't when playing Melee. Putting more effort into balancing the game and designing it with the kinds of elements that make for a good competitive game in mind would do nothing but make more people happy with the game.

[Hytheter]

Well it's now official: the one who knighted so hard he was removed from the meta is back!

Featuring: at least one slightly changed (nerfed? not really) move.

[OracleofWuffing]

Dat's my jam. He'll probably be overnerfed, but the little ball of sword and pain is officially confirmed. I wasn't really focused on his glide gameplay, so I'm probably not going to miss it.

[Zevox]

Well it's now official: the one who knighted so hard he was removed from the meta is back!

Featuring: at least one slightly changed (nerfed? not really) move.

And what would that be? The comment on the picture about his up B cuts off after just saying that it's his up B for me. And it doesn't look any different if I just go off the picture.

[OracleofWuffing]

The full comment is, "Meta Knight's Up Special Move, Shuttle Loop, changed quite a bit in this game. The glide is gone, and the attack slashes opponents twice while spinning in a large loop. This has turned into a highly technical and effective move." So more or less the only thing concrete is that you don't double-dip with his recovery and that it hits twice. Apparently, the recovery bit was already confirmed when he told us that glides were removed, but I guess I wasn't paying attention when he said that.

[Zevox]

Huh, okay. Yeah, I do think I recall hearing something about gliding being removed before - though honestly, I didn't much care. All of the characters that could do it already had great enough recovery that they didn't need it anyway.

[Sith_Happens]

That's nice and all, but the real question is has its priority been knocked down a notch or two?

[OracleofWuffing]

Not a word on its priority, though I thought it was the Tornado (neutral B) that was considered over-prioritied.

[Sith_Happens]

Not a word on its priority, though I thought it was the Tornado (neutral B) that was considered over-prioritied.

The problem with the tornado is its "start to suck you in" range is just greater than most character's melee range.

[Hytheter]

I'm pretty sure Mach Tornado definitely has great priority, and I think the Drill Rush does as well. Hopefully this has been reduced a little, but just wasn't considered notable enough to mention. At least we know his sheer amount of recovery has been slightly lessened.

I recall a hilarious game against my friend in which he played Sonic and every one of my attacks just straight up blasted through his moves. That was probably when I realised Meta Knight's true power. Although I still ended up losing because my friend was the better player and Meta Knight does not require much damage before he starts reaching the KO zone of the screen.

[Rodin]

And yet the silly thing is, having the game be designed for the professional level wouldn't impact that primary audience in the slightest. Such players won't even know the kind of intricacies that higher-level play involves are there regardless, just as they didn't when playing Melee. Putting more effort into balancing the game and designing it with the kinds of elements that make for a good competitive game in mind would do nothing but make more people happy with the game.

Agreed, but I can see the other side of the argument too - that time and resources spent balancing beyond a certain point is time and resources spent not adding other features.

Anyway, we'll see how they do. The macro balance has only gotten better from game to game (read: the difference in power level between the weakest and strongest character), and I'm hoping they continue with that trend.

Thinking back reminds me of how hilariously bad Link was in the first game. If you breathed on him he was off the stage and unable to recover.

[Tylorious]

I'm sure the question has already been asked, but where is one of Nintendo's most classic characters? I speak of course of Simon Belmonte. Why has he not been a member of the SSB family for 4 generations of games? Not even a hint of him.

[OracleofWuffing]

I'm sure the question has already been asked, but where is one of Nintendo's most classic characters? I speak of course of Simon Belmonte. Why has he not been a member of the SSB family for 4 generations of games? Not even a hint of him.

Well, Castlevania is a property of Konami. While we've already had another Konami-licensed character in Snake (who I don't believe has been reconfirmed), my understanding of the matter was that addition was a friendship-based understanding than a corporate idea. Perhaps the guy behind that series needs to ask next time a Smash Bros. game is planned.

He is a playable character in DreamMix TV World Fighters, which was Hudson Soft's, Konami's, and Takara's attempt to knock off the casual fighting formula, so I guess it's not unheard of.

[Xondoure]

...I just realized I want to see Professor Layton.

[Tectonic Robot]

But seriously, Toon Ganondorf, amirite?

[Zevox]

I'm sure the question has already been asked, but where is one of Nintendo's most classic characters? I speak of course of Simon Belmonte. Why has he not been a member of the SSB family for 4 generations of games? Not even a hint of him.

Because he's not a Nintendo character, he's a Konami one. As far as third-party characters go, we've gotten two from heavy fan requests (Sonic and Mega Man), one because Sakurai and Kojima are friends (Snake), and one because Namco-Bandai are developing the newest game (Pac-Man). To my knowledge, Simon Belmont doesn't have anything comparable going for him. Just a moderate amount of fan requests, but nothing approaching what Sonic and Mega Man had.

[Hytheter]

But seriously, Toon Ganondorf, amirite?

Do you mean in addition to Ganondorf or instead of? I'm opposed to having Toon Link as it is; why should the same character in a different art style be worthy of its own character slot? At least Shiek and ZSS are meaningful distinctions.
I would like to see Ganondorf dual wielding in the vein of Wind Waker and Hyrule Warriors, though the latter is probably too recent to have impacted development.

[deuterio12]

And yet the silly thing is, having the game be designed for the professional level wouldn't impact that primary audience in the slightest. Such players won't even know the kind of intricacies that higher-level play involves are there regardless, just as they didn't when playing Melee. Putting more effort into balancing the game and designing it with the kinds of elements that make for a good competitive game in mind would do nothing but make more people happy with the game.

Such effort takes time and time takes money.

I'll much rather prefer that Nintendo is paying the designers to come up with cool and shiny new ideas for SSB than trying to super-fine tune balance in particular since, as you just pointed out, most of the players wouldn't even notice the second one.

And the players who did notice it would still complain, because heck if Blazblue gets flak for balance issues, then I don't see how Sakurai could fare any better while keeping SSB's much greater character and move variety.