EMPIRE! Pre-history Thread

[Morph Bark]

Google has failed me.

The bezant was a coin in the coinage system of the Byzantine Empire, much like the guilder and florin were in use in Italy (and the Netherlands, and possible elsewhere too).

[SamBurke]

The bezant was a coin in the coinage system of the Byzantine Empire, much like the guilder and florin were in use in Italy (and the Netherlands, and possible elsewhere too).

Ahhhh! WEll, adding in the "Realm" threw me off quite a bit.

[QuintonBeck]

As far as goblins go, it's worth mentioning there are some down south, too, in 67, 68A, 68B and 69. They seem to be slightly smaller than northern goblins, and tend towards the blue in skin tone.

I've come to assume the blue and green goblins are quite distantly related. Probably some common ancestry somewhere but so far removed as to more or less have become their own species. Speaking of species, I've found the mixing of races to be somewhat strange/amusing/scientifically problematic. Some of the stranger ones being a Tekorvan and a Fae (producing Valineth), a Dwarf and an Orc (in Razdis), and a goblin and a Kasumori (not sure if they were Cloudiz or not) and I believe all these pairings resulted in children and possibly grandchildren. Now, scientifically speaking a species is separate from another when they can no longer breed and produce fertile offspring, if we're going by that definition all (or a vast majority) of the current species seem to actually still be the same species somehow which is extra confusing. If we throw real world science out the window we're still left with the question of how these sometimes vastly different species can breed? I have yet to come up with a satisfactory answer, but I'm still open to ideas.

Also, in regards to orcs, its seeming more and more likely our tusked and brutish friends originate from the east and the ones in the south central continent migrated there at some point in the past. (I say that now, someone will introduce underground orcs in Gunung next)

On yet another note, Gnomes seem relatively rare. I believe the folks of Gaile-blahblah, under-Pryonia, are said to be gnomes and of course there's the gnomes of Ayava. I wonder if perhaps the Rannarans could be part gnome rather than Dwarf? It might make more sense.

[Aedilred]

The line between nonhuman and demihuman does seem to have got rather blurred/erased, yeah. Whether that's a good or a bad thing, I dunno.

I guess Tekorvans qualify as demihuman and thus theoretically could interbreed with humans. Fae (including elves and berapi), being magicky, can I guess breed with anyone roughly the same shape?* Perhaps the dwarf/orc union is only possible thanks to the previous interbreeding with the elves, introducing fae blood? And the same goes for the Kasumor/goblin union? But by now probably every human population on the planet likely has at least some fae blood, so while it would excuse a lot of inter-species breeding it's also a bit of a cop-out. I dunno.

On the other hand, I do recall Tychris indicating that Sympol couldn't breed with humans, so that's something.

* I have wondered about how Cloudiz "breed" with normal humans. The old mermaid question and all that... Of course, we have actual mermaidsfolk too.

[SamBurke]

On yet another note, Gnomes seem relatively rare. I believe the folks of Gaile-blahblah, under-Pryonia, are said to be gnomes and of course there's the gnomes of Ayava. I wonder if perhaps the Rannarans could be part gnome rather than Dwarf? It might make more sense.

Gnomish blood would work rather well, that's true... and it'd explain their curiosity.

[zabbarot]

Fae (including elves and berapi), being magicky, can I guess breed with anyone roughly the same shape?*

* I have wondered about how Cloudiz "breed" with normal humans. The old mermaid question and all that... Of course, we have actual mermaidsfolk too.

This is what I've been gong with. Morph had mentioned some races being either demihman or nonhuman based on whether they could have children with humans. I guess it should be demi-fae though :P

[Morph Bark]

Speaking of species, I've found the mixing of races to be somewhat strange/amusing/scientifically problematic. Some of the stranger ones being a Tekorvan and a Fae (producing Valineth), a Dwarf and an Orc (in Razdis), and a goblin and a Kasumori (not sure if they were Cloudiz or not) and I believe all these pairings resulted in children and possibly grandchildren. Now, scientifically speaking a species is separate from another when they can no longer breed and produce fertile offspring, if we're going by that definition all (or a vast majority) of the current species seem to actually still be the same species somehow which is extra confusing. If we throw real world science out the window we're still left with the question of how these sometimes vastly different species can breed? I have yet to come up with a satisfactory answer, but I'm still open to ideas.

And that, kids, is how I met your mother discovered the reason they call elves and dwarves and whatnot races instead of species.

For Cloudiz and the berapi, I'd imagine some magic is involved at least. Cloudiz genes, from my talks with Waylander, are recessive unless they come under influence of Ashmar. This is why Wandao and Hanyeo only had gills (which were removed) and Tailong has no features, while Zhuang, who lives close to Hurosha, had at least two. Under Ashmar's influence, Cloudiz genes become dominant. Worse yet, if the mother is Cloudiz, the offspring's early genetic code may be altered to reflect more Cloudiz influence, as if Cloudiz genes are viral.

The line between nonhuman and demihuman does seem to have got rather blurred/erased, yeah. Whether that's a good or a bad thing, I dunno.

This is what I've been gong with. Morph had mentioned some races being either demihman or nonhuman based on whether they could have children with humans. I guess it should be demi-far though :P

Ayup. The only clearly nonhuman races so far have been Sympol, lizardfolk and Haljans. All others can interbreed with humans to some degree. Whether this is due to fae blood magic, humans doing everything since the dawn of time, all of them being subspecies of a single species like Neanderthals were to us or if it will turn out that offspring for a particular union is not fertile as with mules remains to be seen.

[QuintonBeck]

And that, kids, is how I met your mother discovered the reason they call elves and dwarves and whatnot races instead of species.

That's actually a good point and one that makes me reassess the entirety of fantasy tropes and literature. Dwarves, Elves, and Humans are races, so that means they belong to a single species, but what species is that? Interesting thing I've never thought about before.

Oi vey, the Cloudiz, a cancer is right. Everything in a 500 mile radius of Hurosha is sprouting wings, gills, and a tail

[SamBurke]

That's actually a good point and one that makes me reassess the entirety of fantasy tropes and literature. Dwarves, Elves, and Humans are races, so that means they belong to a single species, but what species is that? Interesting thing I've never thought about before.

Oi vey, the Cloudiz, a cancer is right. Everything in a 500 mile radius of Hurosha is sprouting wings, gills, and a tail

I'm surprised Inigo doesn't have wings.

Huh... Race, species. Though technically Warforged are called a 'race' even though they're golems, etc.

[WaylanderX]

For Cloudiz and the berapi, I'd imagine some magic is involved at least. Cloudiz genes, from my talks with Waylander, are recessive unless they come under influence of Ashmar. This is why Wandao and Hanyeo only had gills (which were removed) and Tailong has no features, while Zhuang, who lives close to Hurosha, had at least two. Under Ashmar's influence, Cloudiz genes become dominant. Worse yet, if the mother is Cloudiz, the offspring's early genetic code may be altered to reflect more Cloudiz influence, as if Cloudiz genes are viral, or have similarities to cancer cells in that regard.




Ayup. The only clearly nonhuman races so far have been Sympol, lizardfolk and Haljans. All others can interbreed with humans to some degree. Whether this is due to fae blood magic, humans doing everything since the dawn of time, all of them being subspecies of a single species like Neanderthals were to us or if it will turn out that offspring for a particular union is not fertile as with mules remains to be seen.

Ok first things first. If everybody is going to think of the Cloudiz as some kind of cancerous race, I'm ffing out of the game. I am severly offended OOC by that statement as it is almost the opposite what I was going for.

Secondly, Morph, please do not explain things in my stead that are WRONG. I even said to you yesterday that is wasn't a question of dominant or recessive, nor that the phenomemon resembles a cancer. So yeah, thank you for potentially ruining my race in the eyes of everyone from an OOC perspective.

Thirdly, this is how I actually imagined it:

It all starts with Ashmar. Ashmarism is all about balance, progress and Prowess. Due to the Cataclysm, all pure Cloudiz were annihalated, causing a severe disturbance in that balance due to the Lord of Fire worshippers becoming more prominent. Therefore, Ashmar began to favor those humans with Cloudiz blood in them and making Cloudiz blood more potent. In the children of people with Cloudiz blood that mate with normal humans, the Cloudiz blood rewrites part of the human part of the genetic code, causing that part to also become Cloudiz. In that sense, it is more like a virus or recombinant DNA principles. Cancers are mutations that are mostly random that cause areas of tissue that only multiply uncontrolably, causing damage to the surrounding tissue, causing death or loss of fitness. Cloudiz blood DOES NOT cause death or a loss of fitness in that regard, it only slightly rewrites the genetic code with purpose of multiplying the available Cloudiz genes. I hope this sheds some more light on what I was going for. Also, if the balance is restored mostly (the threshold of enough Cloudiz in Kasumor is reached), this phenomenon will stop and the Cloudizblood will follow normal genetic principles. Also, it is on a case by case basis if the Cloudiz features are dominant or recessive, hence that I roll for them to appear. It has just been rolled that way that allot of people with Cloudiz blood have this many features. Also, outside the areas where Ashmar is worshipped, Cloudiz blood always behaves normally, even if the balance is not yet restored.

In the case of Kenwyn (Goblin+Half-Cloudiz hybrid), I was thinking he was something alike to a lyger (lion x tiger hybrid). Most of the time it isn't possible, but in rare cases, a hybrid may occur. This I attribute to the Human blood that his mother had, being a catalyst to make the union possible. However, due to the human blood running too thin, Kenwyn cannot breed with any race except a Goblin.

I imagined Full-blood Cloudiz to be able to breed with two races: Humans and Berapi. Humans because they can virtually breed with anything and Berapi due to their similar ancestry (fae and all that). However, with human blood thrown in the mix, alot of weird things could happen. However, I am planning to rule that the majority of Kasumor is Fullblood in like 2 rounds from now, declaring that the balance is reached once again.

Finally, with races that cannot breed with other races....Menhîrîn, although people are welcome to try.

[Morph Bark]

[snip]

And at that moment, Morph decided that Morph should leave the fine details of biology to biologists. My apologies, Way.

Is Kenwyn very tall? I know ligers are bigger than tigers, which are the largest of the four big cat species in the panthera... family (genus?). Something something hybrid vigor?

Do we have more biologists playing Empire? I know Chacmon's one, but he's not present much at all.

We do have multiple geologists, iirc. Silverbit at least. No wonder he rocks.

Finally, with races that cannot breed with other races....Menhîrîn, although people are welcome to try.

[lt_murgen]

If we throw real world science out the window we're still left with the question of how these sometimes vastly different species can breed? I have yet to come up with a satisfactory answer, but I'm still open to ideas.

Islanders. They breed with everybody. They are the genetic bunnies of Telluris.

Finally, with races that cannot breed with other races....Menhîrîn, although people are welcome to try.

I think Evelyn Grant had that thought for a while, but could't quite figure out the whole "tab A - slot B" thing.

[Aedilred]

And at that moment, Morph decided that Morph should leave the fine details of biology to biologists. My apologies, Way.

Is Kenwyn very tall? I know ligers are bigger than tigers, which are the largest of the four big cat species in the panthera... family (genus?). Something something hybrid vigor?

From what I remember from Wikipedia, it's to do with some kind of genetic growth inhibitor which only works when you inherit it from a particular side of the parentage (or vice versa, a growth magnifier which only works in its absence), which ligers are missing, but tigons have. Presumably which way round the parentage has to be for this to happen, is dependent on the species in question.

[QuintonBeck]

Various questions to ponder.

Did the Lord of Fire religion exist before the cataclysm? The more I've been thinking the more I'm of the thought that perhaps inklings of the religion might have existed before but it didn't really become a dominant force until after the cataclysm in the approximate 300 years prior to the start of the game but after the calendar beginning. Such might also explain the calendar used across the North, it being a product of the Blazing Faith that emerged more strongly to take the place of the displaced faiths after the Cataclysm and marked its rise/new beginning with a new calendar.

How far spread was the Cataclysm and what can account for its effects? From what has been seen all regions, based on the size they are, are sorely underpopulated which speaks to some degree of great loss in the not too distant past yet the Salterri claims a longer more or less continuous history than any other nation including a few references to a calendar that listed the equivalents of year 300 to about 900 or 1,000 on their own and ancient holdings across the vast seas between south central and the far west. How is it such history can survive if they seemingly suffered a great population decrease as well and what could cause this population hit? Disease? Famine? Furious bolts of godly lightning?

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Various questions to ponder.

Did the Lord of Fire religion exist before the cataclysm? The more I've been thinking the more I'm of the thought that perhaps inklings of the religion might have existed before but it didn't really become a dominant force until after the cataclysm in the approximate 300 years prior to the start of the game but after the calendar beginning. Such might also explain the calendar used across the North, it being a product of the Blazing Faith that emerged more strongly to take the place of the displaced faiths after the Cataclysm and marked its rise/new beginning with a new calendar.

How far spread was the Cataclysm and what can account for its effects? From what has been seen all regions, based on the size they are, are sorely underpopulated which speaks to some degree of great loss in the not too distant past yet the Salterri claims a longer more or less continuous history than any other nation including a few references to a calendar that listed the equivalents of year 300 to about 900 or 1,000 on their own and ancient holdings across the vast seas between south central and the far west. How is it such history can survive if they seemingly suffered a great population decrease as well and what could cause this population hit? Disease? Famine? Furious bolts of godly lightning?

The cataclysm I''ve got centered around happening centralized to the north, but it effected other areas. In my brainspace, Lyradissians called it the Cacophony. And it was this great sonic wave that washed down the southern continent from the North when the Cataclysm happened. They had no idea what the cause was.

[QuintonBeck]

The cataclysm I''ve got centered around happening centralized to the north, but it effected other areas. In my brainspace, Lyradissians called it the Cacophony. And it was this great sonic wave that washed down the southern continent from the North when the Cataclysm happened. They had no idea what the cause was.

I too had it imagined as originating in the central north but it must have had effects that saw death and depopulation across the face of Telluris. Perhaps whatever it itself was ended up causing a string of natural disasters (earthquakes, tsunamis, tornadoes, etc) that decimated the rest of the world by their own means not directly caused but directly resulting from the Cataclysm.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Truely. It might account for the cold lands in the east, and deserts, or the rips in reality where things seem to contradict. The cacophony did a lot of damage in the south, and maybe even caused the broken enclave islands?

[Logic]

My head-canon for the cataclysm is thus:
•The end of the cataclysm saw the rise of the modern Lord of Fire church, and that is the calendar they use predominantly.
•The Celerii civil war ended when the cataclysm started, and did not resume when the cataclysm ended. Hence, those is power at end of the cataclysm remained the Royal line. This also accounts why the people of Celero have reason to use the common era calendar.
•I personally envision Celero during the cataclysm as a melting pot, where refugees fled. It partially explains why Celero tries to get along with the whole world.

[lt_murgen]

I’ve kind of worked a version of it into my Children of Kina religion, but haven’t written it down yet.

They believe that, roughly 300 years ago, there was enough evil and violent death on Telluris for the Goddess to stir. To her, returning souls ‘tainted’ by evil and unjust, violent death, are like poison. As she started to awake, she began to take form upon the world again. This caused violent cataclysm in various places- particularly those where vast evil had taken place. Only through the workings of the Lord of Fire and his agents, was enough peace restored to get her to go back to sleep.

This way, the affects could be widely distributed but sporadic, depending on how ‘evil’ the area was at the time.

[SamBurke]

Various questions to ponder.

Did the Lord of Fire religion exist before the cataclysm? The more I've been thinking the more I'm of the thought that perhaps inklings of the religion might have existed before but it didn't really become a dominant force until after the cataclysm in the approximate 300 years prior to the start of the game but after the calendar beginning. Such might also explain the calendar used across the North, it being a product of the Blazing Faith that emerged more strongly to take the place of the displaced faiths after the Cataclysm and marked its rise/new beginning with a new calendar.

How far spread was the Cataclysm and what can account for its effects? From what has been seen all regions, based on the size they are, are sorely underpopulated which speaks to some degree of great loss in the not too distant past yet the Salterri claims a longer more or less continuous history than any other nation including a few references to a calendar that listed the equivalents of year 300 to about 900 or 1,000 on their own and ancient holdings across the vast seas between south central and the far west. How is it such history can survive if they seemingly suffered a great population decrease as well and what could cause this population hit? Disease? Famine? Furious bolts of godly lightning?

I like the idea of LoF taking hold... which indicates that LoF might counterbalance the Cataclysm? IE, those who survived believed in it, because they thought that it would protect them.

I’ve kind of worked a version of it into my Children of Kina religion, but haven’t written it down yet.

They believe that, roughly 300 years ago, there was enough evil and violent death on Telluris for the Goddess to stir. To her, returning souls ‘tainted’ by evil and unjust, violent death, are like poison. As she started to awake, she began to take form upon the world again. This caused violent cataclysm in various places- particularly those where vast evil had taken place. Only through the workings of the Lord of Fire and his agents, was enough peace restored to get her to go back to sleep.

This way, the affects could be widely distributed but sporadic, depending on how ‘evil’ the area was at the time.

My only belief about the Cataclysm is that it's on a cycle, sort of Mass-Effect style. Keeps coming back, clearing everything away, remaking the world.

[lt_murgen]

I like the idea of LoF taking hold... which indicates that LoF might counterbalance the Cataclysm? IE, those who survived believed in it, because they thought that it would protect them.


My only belief about the Cataclysm is that it's on a cycle, sort of Mass-Effect style. Keeps coming back, clearing everything away, remaking the world.

That's awesome, since it fits with my Kina/khaditna/Khadi mythology of reincarnation, destruction, and rebirth.

[QuintonBeck]

I ended up on the Wikipedia page for the microstate of Andorra (not sure how come to think of it...) and it has an estimated population of about 80,000. It's the size of a dot on a world map. Telluris is terribly underpopulated (especially for the people being as scattered as they are) The Cataclysm must have been terribly devastating for the populations of the various peoples to be widespread and there not to just be wastelands between everywhere, Admittedly it probably is wild wastes of sorts between the pockets of civilization but the fact that the pockets are so widespread and claim such large chunks of land speaks that the population was so big that they did once cover much more and that moving far away to found a separate city/state was necessary to avoid conflict with existing states meaning there were probably lots more people.

I also subscribe to the headcanon of the Cataclysm being cyclical. That part just seemed natural to me, I guess I've been indoctrinated

[SamBurke]

That's awesome, since it fits with my Kina/khaditna/Khadi mythology of reincarnation, destruction, and rebirth.

EXACTLY. It also will allow us to wipe the game and rebuild it sometime in the future, should that be needed. Handy!

I ended up on the Wikipedia page for the microstate of Andorra (not sure how come to think of it...) and it has an estimated population of about 80,000. It's the size of a dot on a world map. Telluris is terribly underpopulated (especially for the people being as scattered as they are) The Cataclysm must have been terribly devastating for the populations of the various peoples to be widespread and there not to just be wastelands between everywhere, Admittedly it probably is wild wastes of sorts between the pockets of civilization but the fact that the pockets are so widespread and claim such large chunks of land speaks that the population was so big that they did once cover much more and that moving far away to found a separate city/state was necessary to avoid conflict with existing states meaning there were probably lots more people.

I also subscribe to the headcanon of the Cataclysm being cyclical. That part just seemed natural to me, I guess I've been indoctrinated

Hmmm... I always think of the Cataclysm as something global, but involving design. IE, someone else shows up to re-create it... sort of starting a new dungeon on a Roguelike or opening a new seed on Minecraft.

[WaylanderX]

EXACTLY. It also will allow us to wipe the game and rebuild it sometime in the future, should that be needed. Handy!


Hmmm... I always think of the Cataclysm as something global, but involving design. IE, someone else shows up to re-create it... sort of starting a new dungeon on a Roguelike or opening a new seed on Minecraft.

In my mind, the Cataclysm was initiated by a fool who wanted more POWAH, and thus thought that stealing it from a god would be a good idea. Which turned out to be kind of not so good. And probably, there will be another fool who will try it, perhaps with the same god, perhaps with another, after which the world probably goes boom again.

I like the idea of LoF taking hold... which indicates that LoF might counterbalance the Cataclysm? IE, those who survived believed in it, because they thought that it would protect them.

This is quite funny to me, as Morph was talking to me about an alternative explanation, based on mine, in which the LoF was the direct cause of the Cataclysm. And so you see, every race have their own explanations and no official OOC head-cannon can be distilled.

[zabbarot]

In my mind, the Cataclysm was initiated by a fool who wanted more POWAH, and thus thought that stealing it from a god would be a good idea. Which turned out to be kind of not so good. And probably, there will be another fool who will try it, perhaps with the same god, perhaps with another, after which the world probably goes boom again.

Oh be careful with that theory >.> That's basically what I did when I tried to make Greta the Lord of Fire.

[WaylanderX]

Oh be careful with that theory >.> That's basically what I did when I tried to make Greta the Lord of Fire.

One of the reasons I do not allow Radurja within Huroshan borders .

[TheWombatOfDoom]

One of the reasons I do not allow Radurja within Huroshan borders .

Well, I did kill Adam before he could complete it. Unfortunately his corpse/spirit kinda kept going based on the spell, but it could have corrupted the process to keep it more localized.

However, if it were found out that the reason cataclysms kept happening had to do with people and their connection to religion, I know the first thing to be outlawed...

[Sorrcerousflux]

Ive really got to flesh out the history of the Nixdarum, but im encountering the problem of having a race thats probably one of the oldest things on the planet and a bit of writers block. grrr whatever, ill think of something; in the meantime I will say that the Nixdarum lived throughout their history in a meritocratic governmental structure, and their enemies(the amphibious Drexals) were autocratic pond scum(not literaly but you see what I did there)

[BladeofObliviom]

On the note of dwarves, Keldagrim dwarves have been explicitly stated to not have a common (recent) origin with Sulvan and therefore Razdissi dwarves. The north central underground is also not connected to the south central underground as of yet, so for the Mularuhm dwarves to share a common origin with the northern dwarves, they would have to have been aboveground or have come into being in several different places due to similar circumstances.

And what, then, about the Rannaran dwarves? Perhaps there was some sort of ancient trade between Guilder, and they came that way?

...The Rannarans are dwarves?

Somehow this is news to me. I have no idea where the heck they came from, though, unless the Dwarves were dragged over there from Keldagrim by the "Old Guilderenes", or vice versa. This would explain the geographical divide between the Afriit goblins and the Zargrimi/Keldagrim goblins too, actually.

As far as goblins go, it's worth mentioning there are some down south, too, in 67, 68A, 68B and 69. They seem to be slightly smaller than northern goblins, and tend towards the blue in skin tone.

Florin=yes.

Dwarven seafarers...? Ehhhh... Dunno. I kinda like it, but where'd they do well on a ship? They need to be nimble. Maians would be amazing on ships. Frontiersman, sure. Even Sah'raan Goblins. But not Rannaran dwarves. At least not as they're set up now.

Oooh. So Florin Islands... perhaps I should investigate there for clues about the ancient truth?

I've come to assume the blue and green goblins are quite distantly related. Probably some common ancestry somewhere but so far removed as to more or less have become their own species.

On yet another note, Gnomes seem relatively rare. I believe the folks of Gaile-blahblah, under-Pryonia, are said to be gnomes and of course there's the gnomes of Ayava. I wonder if perhaps the Rannarans could be part gnome rather than Dwarf? It might make more sense.

So, at this point, I'm resurrecting a pretty old conversation. This post will discuss the current spread of Dwarves and Goblins.

Okay, so my current theory involves either two different and heavily geographically separated major Dwarven groups or a diaspora into those two from a yet unknown point. There is a third possible explanation I'll get into later, but it cannot be confirmed or falsified for now.

The Sulvai and Mularuhm are the two main groups I was speaking of. The are culturally similar enough that one could have easily come from the other if they were closer, but the geographical difference is enough that they likely came from elsewhere or developed independently. It has been accepted for some time that an offshoot of the Sulvan dwarves migrated southeast and founded the colony that eventually became Razdis and also possibly left a group under Celero that eventually became the Beregines.

It has been stated that the Dwarves of Keldagrim do not share a recent common origin with the Dwarves of Sulvan's Fury or Razdis despite their proximity. Thus, the nearness of Razdissi territory and Keldagrim is pure coincidence. I am actually inclined to believe this, since Razdissi and Keldagrim cultures are visibly different, and Keldagrim coexisted with/enslaved the Goblin population that appears to have founded Zargrim as well. Surely Razdis would have contained more than a few goblins if they were truly in the same lineage?

Goblins exist in two other places: The wastes of Saa'raa, where they are independent warrior-types referring to themselves as Afriit, and the South, where they are Blue. These (roughly)correspond respectively to the Rannaran dwarves of the East and the Mularuhm Dwarves of the South.

My current theory is that the Mularuhm Dwarves and Blue Goblins were perhaps a remnant of a larger Dwarven/Goblin Civilization defeated/conquered by the Kells. Some would have fled across the Sea and settled in the east, where presumably they encountered the Old Guilderenes.

*To be continued because I have to go to class. Watch this space.

[Aedilred]

Although I haven't actually discussed it either with Forza or Randy, I've been coming to the conclusion that the Mularuhm dwarves migrated to the area around the same time as the elves did. Depending on how the Jarrland history syncs up with the Lyradis one, that could be anywhere from during the Cataclysm to several hundred years before it. Since so far elves and dwarves seem to have an ancestral friendship and kinship for the most part, rather than the more fantasy-traditional antagonism and rivalry, it would make a kind of sense.

As with the Lyradis history, I think Silverbit's chronology is a bit too recent to fit entirely neatly with the situation in the south if the migrants were the same group as those that founded Razdis - there just isn't really enough time between those events and the arrival of the Salterri. The Mularuhm dwarves might therefore have been an earlier wave of migrants out of Sulvan's Fury who initially followed a fairly similar route to the Razdissi until arrival in the Heartwaste/Eyrecradia and were joined by elves and possibly goblins for the rest of the journey south, ultimately settling the land both above and beneath the mountains.

Alternatively the Mularuhm might have been an offshoot of the proto-Sulvai themselves, wherever they originally came from (perhaps Keldagrim itself?). Perhaps political dissidents against the goblin-enslaving regime? In my elf-migratory theory I had been working on the assumption there was some sort of social or political schism which caused a large number to leave (whether fleeing the Cataclysm itself, trying to pre-empt it, war with the Cloudiz, or whatever) and protest against slavery is the sort of thing which could fracture such a society.

In some ways I think it would make sense if the migration happened before the Cataclysm, with groups of elves and dwarves continuing further southward and eventually becoming cut off completely when the Cataclysm happened. That would explain the lack of reliable documented evidence and provide enough time for some of the physiological differences to develop (and also explain the pockets of pureblood elves in the far south while they've been bred out by humans almost everywhere else), but the dwarven/goblin empire might have survived longer underground, and lasting until the arrival of the Kells which finally destroyed it.

The Niskans might be worth a look too as they are explicitly faeblood - if the Sulvai were themselves migrants from the central continent, the forefathers of the Niskans might themselves have continued further west into Kyaralath and Niskovia - or they could be from a completely different strain of fae, like the Valterre elves.

(I forgot to mention previously but a connection between the southern elves and the Razdissi is further supported - coincidentally and largely OOC - by the fact they share the same "classical" language. Both Silverbit and I independently settled on Estonian as the basis for ancient foreign-sounding stuff.)