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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: warlock vs binder at wills

    If your DM is that much of an ass not to ever let you get a minute for yourself, then you know you will be able to make use of the single feat that lets you do it in 6 seconds: Rapid Pact Making.
    Last edited by Dr. Azkur; 2014-04-10 at 05:04 PM.
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    Default Re: warlock vs binder at wills

    Power
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    Level 21+: Warlock. [Shadowmaster FTW]

    Fluff: Warlock, binder slidding in a nanosec behind. To bad the crunch is worse.
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    Default Re: warlock vs binder at wills

    Quote Originally Posted by NoACWarrior View Post
    OoC healing, no limit, no alignment restrictions, no special feats / ability combos needed
    Infinite Turning
    Drain / damage healing without expending resources
    Fear Immunity
    Superior Scouting
    Party face take 10 (no instances where you meet the king and roll a 1 and claim his mother is a goblin)

    Thats just a few of the fun powers that binders get over the warlock's abilities.
    Infinite Turning isn't all that meaningful when it's one attempt at a time, especially at the level you get it. Fear Immunity is something Paladins get at pretty low level, and Remove Fear is a first level spell anyway. And since rolling a 1 on a skill check has no special effect and a party face isn't going to have a negative Cha modifier, it's pretty much only going to make a situation worse if your opponent is already unfriendly, and even that goes away with 1st level ranks.

    The healing stuff is more of a playstyle thing, I'll grant, but the others are really just the reason the Binder is Tier 3 and the Warlock is Tier 4. It's still not exactly gamebreaking.
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    Default Re: warlock vs binder at wills

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
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    Default Re: warlock vs binder at wills

    A binder cannot get infinite healing without spending a resource. In order to get the infinite healing, you need to bind Buer. At the level that Buer first becomes available, you can only have one vestige at a time, and Buer does basically nothing besides healing. So you're spending a very big resource: The entirety of your primary class feature. If you want to be able to heal, then you cannot do anything other than healing, all day. Even the Healer doesn't have it that bad. At higher levels, you can get multiple vestiges at once, but you still top out at only four, and spending a quarter of your class features on healing is still a mighty high price to pay.
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    Default Re: warlock vs binder at wills

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    A binder cannot get infinite healing without spending a resource. In order to get the infinite healing, you need to bind Buer. At the level that Buer first becomes available, you can only have one vestige at a time, and Buer does basically nothing besides healing. So you're spending a very big resource: The entirety of your primary class feature. If you want to be able to heal, then you cannot do anything other than healing, all day. Even the Healer doesn't have it that bad. At higher levels, you can get multiple vestiges at once, but you still top out at only four, and spending a quarter of your class features on healing is still a mighty high price to pay.
    Expel vestige. You have no daily limit on the number of vestiges you can bind per day, just the amount bound at once.

    Sure you spend 2 mins to get infinite healing, but those 2 mins are something to wait for. I don't see the warlock getting that with a class feature and spending 0 gold.
    But step back the hate on binders, and don't assume I'm a binder fanboy. I'd much rather play a warlock than a binder in a lot of campaign modes. But I'd imagine theres A LOT of things I couldn't do by going Warlock.

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    Default Re: warlock vs binder at wills

    I'd have to agree with everyone's post in their entirety so far except on one key point that's been hitting me in ways I didn't think it'd hit. Like a nagging pet peeve...

    Why's everyone keep calling Warlock T4?
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    Default Re: warlock vs binder at wills

    Quote Originally Posted by CIDE View Post
    I'd have to agree with everyone's post in their entirety so far except on one key point that's been hitting me in ways I didn't think it'd hit. Like a nagging pet peeve...

    Why's everyone keep calling Warlock T4?
    Because that's how it's listed?
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    Default Re: warlock vs binder at wills

    Quote Originally Posted by CIDE View Post
    I'd have to agree with everyone's post in their entirety so far except on one key point that's been hitting me in ways I didn't think it'd hit. Like a nagging pet peeve...

    Why's everyone keep calling Warlock T4?
    Because JaronK, while compiling his list of Tiers, placed the Warlock there. He later admitted that he didn't entirely like the warlock, nor really saw it's full potential, and that while warlocks can be tier 3 in certain builds, that those builds don't make the Warlock tier 4. That said he did regard the Warlock as being high(est) tier 4, only just under the Warblade which is regarded as the lowest in Tier 3. he also made a distinction between binders with access to online vestiges (T32) and binders without access to online vestiges (T43).
    Last edited by Socratov; 2014-04-11 at 07:20 AM. Reason: Story pointed out a mistake in my post concerning the Binder's tiers
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    Default Re: warlock vs binder at wills

    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov View Post
    he also made a distinction between binders with access to online vestiges (T3) and binders without access to online vestiges (T4).
    Actually it was T2 and T3.

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    Default Re: warlock vs binder at wills

    My problem with the class tier system is that it supposes the PCs are lvl 20.

    Well, I've been playing D&D for over 15 years and each time PCs "win the game" around lvl 15.

    So, for this kind of games, if you consider that most of the time you're lvl 1-10, the tier list changes a lot.

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    Default Re: warlock vs binder at wills

    Quote Originally Posted by CIDE View Post
    I'd have to agree with everyone's post in their entirety so far except on one key point that's been hitting me in ways I didn't think it'd hit. Like a nagging pet peeve...

    Why's everyone keep calling Warlock T4?
    History, as others have said. There's a lot of debate about whether Warlocks are Tier 3 or Tier 4. While they have a decent range of abilities, people debate whether that puts them in the same Tier as Rangers and Rogues (able to do several things, but none all that well) or Bards and Beguilers (able to do several things well enough to meaningfully contribute).

    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoSuisse View Post
    My problem with the class tier system is that it supposes the PCs are lvl 20.
    No it doesn't. Much of the tier system doesn't even apply at level 20, since that's when Healers and Truenamers get Gate. The Tier system is mostly a classification of how classes get resources, and that's valid as soon as their resource mechanics come online, which in most cases is first level.
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    Default Re: warlock vs binder at wills

    My preference is for Binder, which has a greater variety of meaningful options (Warlock has a small number of "real" options which 90% of builds use), and the ability to change them out each day, which adds a trememndou amount of flexibility. I'm also a big fan of the "wait 5 rounds" delay mechanic (or any similar delay or ready/use/ready mechanic) because it forces players to mix up their actions during combat, and not spam the same thing every round.


    Quote Originally Posted by CIDE View Post
    Why's everyone keep calling Warlock T4?
    I would argue that the Warlock is correctly ranked at Tier 4 until they reach mid-high levels, and even then they require a high level of game mastery to get up to Tier 3. Warlocks just have very few resources to work with, and have a hard time filling any combat Niche in a meaningful way without lots of optimization. Having "at-will" resources is usually meaningless, unless you happen to be playing in "escape from the bottom of world's largest dungeon" and your DM bans Rope Trick. And even then, the Warlock has fewer resources and can fill fewer Niches then the at-will Binder, Dragonfire Adept, Totemist, Incarnate, Swordsage, Warblade, Crusader, etc.

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    Default Re: warlock vs binder at wills

    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoSuisse View Post
    My problem with the class tier system is that it supposes the PCs are lvl 20.

    Well, I've been playing D&D for over 15 years and each time PCs "win the game" around lvl 15.

    So, for this kind of games, if you consider that most of the time you're lvl 1-10, the tier list changes a lot.
    It is actually based on level 5-15. I don't recall where that was said, but he did say so somewhere.
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    Default Re: warlock vs binder at wills

    Oh no. I sense a "warlock is not t4" post coming *readies umbrella*

    On topic: Even if you can't cthulhu headed lion because your dm doesn't like epic things, nabs alone is the reason why so many builds dip in binder, like hellfire warlock. The binder also has a lot more versatility as a class, with the ability to be build as an amazing scout, one of the best non-spell grappler, easily specced party face, tank, weapon finesser, or blaster that can do comparable, if not exceeding, damage to a low-mid op warlock (at high op, all bets are off (although anima mage))
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    Default Re: warlock vs binder at wills

    Quote Originally Posted by TuggyNE View Post
    Because that's how it's listed?
    And JaronK does get corrected...? Ever?

    Quote Originally Posted by Socratov View Post
    Because JaronK, while compiling his list of Tiers, placed the Warlock there. He later admitted that he didn't entirely like the warlock, nor really saw it's full potential, and that while warlocks can be tier 3 in certain builds, that those builds don't make the Warlock tier 4. That said he did regard the Warlock as being high(est) tier 4, only just under the Warblade which is regarded as the lowest in Tier 3. he also made a distinction between binders with access to online vestiges (T32) and binders without access to online vestiges (T43).
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    Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

    Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribue to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.


    Even a Warlock 1-20 immediatelly falls into the description of tier 3. Their item crafting is already good enough to already put them into Tier 3 because of all the extra stuff while the rest of their 'build' focuses on the one good thing the Tier 3 description mentions.



    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    History, as others have said. There's a lot of debate about whether Warlocks are Tier 3 or Tier 4. While they have a decent range of abilities, people debate whether that puts them in the same Tier as Rangers and Rogues (able to do several things, but none all that well) or Bards and Beguilers (able to do several things well enough to meaningfully contribute).
    .
    Except the degree that the Warlock sits above classes like the Ranger or Rogue is huge. Outside of combat it's even more versatile than the ToB classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    I would argue that the Warlock is correctly ranked at Tier 4 until they reach mid-high levels, and even then they require a high level of game mastery to get up to Tier 3. Warlocks just have very few resources to work with, and have a hard time filling any combat Niche in a meaningful way without lots of optimization. Having "at-will" resources is usually meaningless, unless you happen to be playing in "escape from the bottom of world's largest dungeon" and your DM bans Rope Trick. And even then, the Warlock has fewer resources and can fill fewer Niches then the at-will Binder, Dragonfire Adept, Totemist, Incarnate, Swordsage, Warblade, Crusader, etc.
    I'm just not seeing it. Especially when compared to the bolded classes in regards to overall versaility. One of them is literally just a dragon-lock instead of a demon/fae/whatever-lock. Other's schtick is hitting things that I didn't know was really enough for all this (also considering out of combat usefulness since that's just as big). I can kind of understand the swordsage in certain builds but a warblade..? Aside from shenanigans that some people houserule or ban anyway...just not seeing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by A Tad Insane View Post
    Oh no. I sense a "warlock is not t4" post coming *readies umbrella*

    Oh shush. They started it by even bringing up the tier system.

    I'm fine with and completely agree with the above statements about the Binder's performance over the Warlocks even if thematically I love both. Especially with the additional vestiges.

    It does not mean I need to agree with them about it's tier placement made initially by a person that didn't even know or like the class.
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    Default Re: warlock vs binder at wills

    Quote Originally Posted by CIDE View Post

    I'm just not seeing it. Especially when compared to the bolded classes in regards to overall versaility. One of them is literally just a dragon-lock instead of a demon/fae/whatever-lock. Other's schtick is hitting things that I didn't know was really enough for all this (also considering out of combat usefulness since that's just as big).
    Meldshapers can pick from an entire book of abilities and change them on a daily basis. Same with Binders. A Totemist may be mostly combat focused, but they still get more versatility if they want it.

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    Default Re: warlock vs binder at wills

    Rule 352, sub article 2b of the forums: Every time the Warlock is the prime subject of a thread, its placement on JaronK's Tier System shall be disputed, or at the very least, so hinted.

    Sub article 2c: In case of explicitly treating the matter, it will mandatorily be compared to the Warblade.
    Last edited by Dr. Azkur; 2014-04-11 at 07:15 PM.
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    Default Re: warlock vs binder at wills

    Isn't the Warblade's placement also disputed?

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    Default Re: warlock vs binder at wills

    Yes, of course! But we can't make a rule out of that, just the observation.
    The Warlock's amount of dispute, however, is thorough enough to be dogmatised.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Story View Post
    Meldshapers can pick from an entire book of abilities and change them on a daily basis. Same with Binders. A Totemist may be mostly combat focused, but they still get more versatility if they want it.
    I didn't mention the Meldshaper, though...

    also, as much as I like the fluff on it I never actually played a totemist so I'm limited on that. Based only on builds I've seen where it seems only the optimized ones to me scream T3.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Azkur View Post
    Rule 352, sub article 2b of the forums: Every time the Warlock is the prime subject of a thread, its placement on JaronK's Tier System shall be disputed, or at the very least, so hinted.

    Sub article 2c: In case of explicitly treating the matter, it will mandatorily be compared to the Warblade.
    I love this.
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    Default Re: warlock vs binder at wills

    Quote Originally Posted by CIDE View Post
    I didn't mention the Meldshaper, though...

    also, as much as I like the fluff on it I never actually played a totemist so I'm limited on that. Based only on builds I've seen where it seems only the optimized ones to me scream T3.



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    Default Re: warlock vs binder at wills

    Quoth NoACWarrior:

    Expel vestige. You have no daily limit on the number of vestiges you can bind per day, just the amount bound at once.
    You do, however, have a daily limit on Expel Vestige-- Only once per day. Yeah, it helps, but Buer is still a pretty big chunk of your resources.

    To be fair, there are other ways of getting infinite healing from a binder. You could, for instance, bind Tenebrous instead of Buer, and then take Sacred Healing (the one from Complete Divine, not PHB2) as a feat. That lets you turn your 1/5 rounds Turn Undead into healing, while still giving you other useful abilities from Tenebrous. You're still spending resources, though, just a feat and a smaller opportunity cost on the vestige.

    And please don't think I'm hating on the Binder. I actually think it's a very well-designed class, and would love to play one if I ever found myself in a game that used Tome of Magic.
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    Default Re: warlock vs binder at wills

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Azkur View Post
    Rule 352, sub article 2b of the forums: Every time the Warlock is the prime subject of a thread, its placement on JaronK's Tier System shall be disputed, or at the very least, so hinted.

    Sub article 2c: In case of explicitly treating the matter, it will mandatorily be compared to the Warblade.
    indeed, which is why I brought it up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Story View Post
    Isn't the Warblade's placement also disputed?
    Yes. Heavily when compared to the warblade
    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    You do, however, have a daily limit on Expel Vestige-- Only once per day. Yeah, it helps, but Buer is still a pretty big chunk of your resources.

    To be fair, there are other ways of getting infinite healing from a binder. You could, for instance, bind Tenebrous instead of Buer, and then take Sacred Healing (the one from Complete Divine, not PHB2) as a feat. That lets you turn your 1/5 rounds Turn Undead into healing, while still giving you other useful abilities from Tenebrous. You're still spending resources, though, just a feat and a smaller opportunity cost on the vestige.

    And please don't think I'm hating on the Binder. I actually think it's a very well-designed class, and would love to play one if I ever found myself in a game that used Tome of Magic.
    well, personally I would go for the shadowcaster. That minx looks delicious to play...
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    Default Re: warlock vs binder at wills

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    You do, however, have a daily limit on Expel Vestige-- Only once per day. Yeah, it helps, but Buer is still a pretty big chunk of your resources.
    Vestige Phylactery effectively raises that to twice per day.


    Anyway, I'm not actually familiar with Shadowcaster, but wasn't it much weaker than intended? I seem to recall the writer himself posting unofficial errata somewhere.

    It's a shame, because Black Labyrinth looks really cool.
    Last edited by Story; 2014-04-12 at 09:45 AM.

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    Default Re: warlock vs binder at wills

    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoSuisse View Post
    My problem with the class tier system is that it supposes the PCs are lvl 20.

    Well, I've been playing D&D for over 15 years and each time PCs "win the game" around lvl 15.

    So, for this kind of games, if you consider that most of the time you're lvl 1-10, the tier list changes a lot.
    The tier list is primarily concerned with levels 6-15. I think there was also a project attempting to do separate tier rankings for different level chunks and degrees of optimization a while back that might be worth looking at.

    The one thing about the tier list I'd change is that I'd break what is currently High T4/Low T3 area into a separate tier and maybe expand what's left of T3 upwards a bit to cover some of what is now considered low T2 (online vestige Binders, Arcane Disciple Dread Necros/Beguilers, and the like). The reason that the Warlock/Warblade/Swordsage/etc argument keeps coming up is that the line between T3 and T4 as it stands is in such a murky grey area. Moreover, the High T3 types, like Factotums, Bards, Dread Necromancers, and yes, Binders are operating on a pretty clearly distinct level of ability (not bad enough that the classes can't play together, but one tier of difference is supposed to be manageable). Of course, that might just create new grey areas, but I think it'd turn out cleaner overall.
    Last edited by WhamBamSam; 2014-04-12 at 10:57 AM.

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    Default Re: warlock vs binder at wills

    Quote Originally Posted by Story View Post
    Anyway, I'm not actually familiar with Shadowcaster, but wasn't it much weaker than intended? I seem to recall the writer himself posting unofficial errata somewhere.

    It's a shame, because Black Labyrinth looks really cool.
    I'm not sure if it was weaker than inteded, but it was weak enough that players compained. I would say its kind of like a race car with 1 gallon of gas until mid- late levels.


    Quote Originally Posted by CIDE View Post


    I'm just not seeing it. Especially when compared to the bolded classes in regards to overall versaility. One of them is literally just a dragon-lock instead of a demon/fae/whatever-lock. Other's schtick is hitting things that I didn't know was really enough for all this (also considering out of combat usefulness since that's just as big). I can kind of understand the swordsage in certain builds but a warblade..? Aside from shenanigans that some people houserule or ban anyway...just not seeing it.
    The DFA is considered low tier 3, I believe with the breath weapon being considered better than the EB, more breath effects+invocations vs invocations, higher skills, saves, and hit die.

    Warblade also brings sensory, buffs, skills, defenses and action economy to the table
    Last edited by Lans; 2014-04-12 at 08:39 PM.

  28. - Top - End - #58
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: warlock vs binder at wills

    Eh, DFA is considered tier 4 also.

  29. - Top - End - #59
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: warlock vs binder at wills

    Dragonfire Adept is better within its niche than Warlock is in its, but it's less flexible outside of its niche. The main points are that DFAs get Entangling Exhalation, they get an area of effect by default, and they can choose to use their first invocation to protect their allies from their area effect, but warlocks don't have to invest in their blasty ability if they don't want to, and get their UMD goodies.
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  30. - Top - End - #60
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: warlock vs binder at wills

    Quote Originally Posted by Story View Post
    Vestige Phylactery effectively raises that to twice per day.


    Anyway, I'm not actually familiar with Shadowcaster, but wasn't it much weaker than intended? I seem to recall the writer himself posting unofficial errata somewhere.

    It's a shame, because Black Labyrinth looks really cool.
    It is weaker than intended, here is the creater's fixes.
    LGBTA+itP

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