Captain America vs. a Jedi

[lt_murgen]

Ok, let me make some generalizaions here:

1) MCU Captain America- as seen in movies.
2) Jedi as shown in movies and Clone Wars Cartoons. This allows me to take Ahsoka Tano as my 'typical Jedi'.
3) Given that both were soldiers, it is unlikely that the battle would be in an open field. More likely, it would be in some enclosed space- like a factory. We have examples of both fighting in narrow confines, so lets put the fight in a warehouse / assembly faciltiy.

With lots of things to bounce his shield off of, Captain America has a significant advantage. However, that is a one trick pony, and Ahsoka's precognitive abilities will negate any second attempt.

Ahsoka knows multiple combat forms- Shien, Nimian, Ataru. So she will have an advantage against Captain America's ability to learn and adapt to a person's style. As evidence, look at CAII Batroc fight. Captain is just holding his own, until he gets a feel for Batroc's leaping style, then beats him. Provided Ahsoka has time to realized and change styles, she has the advantage.

Both Cap and Ahsoka are highly athletic and gymnastic. But Ahsoka has repeatedly demonstrated force-enhanced leaps and other acrobatics. Advantage Ahsoka.

The greatest advantage, however, are force-enhanced senses. Cap did manage to hear a hydra agent in a tree, but not the soldier that Bucky sniped. In a loud facility, Cap wont be able to hear much. Ahsoka, on the other hand, was able to find one other (Unconscious) Jedi in a debris field. Once she is aware of Cap, he won't get the jump on her.

Winner- Ahsoka.

[Reverent-One]

I still don't think the argument that precognition means no mistakes holds water, for the same reasons I argued against MLai. If Jedi/Sith have precognition and choose to leave an opening, would that not entail pretty certain knowledge that the opponent was not fast enough to capitalize on that opening, meaning that the Jedi/Sith cannot move fast enought to exploit the openings we see on the screen? If, on the other hand, we assume they have average or better reflexes, it does not follow from their behavior that their precognition functions as you theorize, since the openings they leave could be easily exploited by opponents with relatively normal reflexes, meaning they would either choose not to leave that opening or the opponent would capitalize on it.

To take an example that doesn't involve spinning, at one point Darth Maul ducks under a wild swing that leaves Kenobi wide open, but does not take the ample opportunity to kill him while he's off-balance with his midsection totally unguarded. From this we must either assume that Darth Maul is not fast enough to capitalize on the opportunity despite the fact that he saw it coming in advance (in which case he is very slow) or we must assume that their precognition is imperfect and Darth Maul didn't assess the situation fast enough to take advantage the opportunity that Kenobi didn't intend to give him and he didn't expect to get.

It's not a matter of precognition meaning no mistakes, certainly Jedi aren't perfect and flawless. But precognition doesn't have to be perfect to be useful. And I'd argue that if there's an opening that an opponent that isn't noted as being particularly slow (and in Darth Maul's case is clearly the opposite) fails to take advantage of, then it probably isn't one that anybody with normal reflexes could have taken advantage of. There is a balance of directorial intent vs on-screen execution to consider.

As for styles, that's a fair counter-point, but is there a style you would argue leaves less openings? Could you point to a scene from the show or movies in support of this? Preferably not used in the context of fighting a ton of droids armed with blasters, for the reasons Tiki Snakes mentioned.

Dooku fights with Form II style, a more precise, dueling oriented style. He does not think highly of what he calls the "extravagant acrobatics" of Form IV either. It shows, as there is certainly less of the spinning and jumping and such in his fights (most any of them from the second and third prequels). And while there's still some excessive twirling, Obi-wan also moves into the more defensive and controlled Form III in the later movies, actually specifically because of weaker defensive capabilities Form IV demonstrated in that Episode I fight.

[Legato Endless]

I don't believe Jedi fighting styles come from western swordmanship schools. Strength isn't unimportant either, as it also you to break through your opponents defense, it doesn't take much to cut someone, but getting past their blade (or shield as the case may be) is another matter.

Well, in a fight between two swordsman at least that isn't the case. Your opponent's defense is something you slip inside of, redirect, or trick. You don't overpower it. That's equally true in the East and the West. There might be some exceptions for certain styles. Say you're facing a child who has been well tutored. A difference in strength can be quite middling or irrelevant. It's the difference in reach that's the issue. Now, perhaps a brawl can be a very different manner, but I've no notion of how an opponent who only uses a shield fights practically.

[Reverent-One]

Well, in a fight between two swordsman at least that isn't the case. Your opponent's defense is something you slip inside of, redirect, or trick. You don't overpower it. That's equally true in the East and the West. There might be some exceptions for certain styles. Say you're facing a child who has been well tutored. A difference in strength can be quite middling or irrelevant. It's the difference in reach that's the issue. Now, perhaps a brawl can be a very different manner, but I've no notion of how an opponent who only uses a shield fights practically.

By starring in a Marvel movie.

[Legato Endless]

By starring in a Marvel movie.

Touche.

[Zrak]

I don't know if Ahsoka's the best example of a typical Jedi, since she's pretty solidly in the main character/goes one-on-one-with-Grievous-and-lives camp. That aside, her overconfidence is going to be a huge disadvantage against Captain America, and MCU Cap still really only needs one hit to end the fight. He may not have some of the crazy hardcore feats that Captain America has in the comics, hurting a being Uatu was scared of and punching the omnipotence right out of Dr. Doom's face, but think about the damage he can do to the cybernetic Chitauri and think of what he could do to a decidedly softer, non-cybernetic opponent if he didn't hold back. I mean, he kicks people hard enough to bounce them off a ceiling when he's not explicitly trying to kill them. Her biggest advantage is superior senses, but I don't know if either is really stealthy enough to make this a big issue; Cap certainly couldn't sneak up on her, but I don't know if she can sneak up on Cap, either. I just can't really recall her being that stealthy, but I could be forgetting something. Regardless, if it progresses beyond an initial surprise attack, I don't think she's going to take the fight seriously enough until it's too late.

[Sith_Happens]

I don't know if Ahsoka's the best example of a typical Jedi, since she's pretty solidly in the main character/goes one-on-one-with-Grievous-and-lives camp.

In terms of actual abilities I'd place her as a good weighted average for "Jedi" in general (at least based on the first two seasons, I really need to catch up on that show), and by extension a useful benchmark/comparison point for this thread. Personally, I see Cap eking out a win against Ahsoka once he switches from narrowly matching her agility to exploiting his considerable size advantage.

[Zrak]

It's not a matter of precognition meaning no mistakes, certainly Jedi aren't perfect and flawless. But precognition doesn't have to be perfect to be useful. And I'd argue that if there's an opening that an opponent that isn't noted as being particularly slow (and in Darth Maul's case is clearly the opposite) fails to take advantage of, then it probably isn't one that anybody with normal reflexes could have taken advantage of. There is a balance of directorial intent vs on-screen execution to consider.

My point wasn't that we should assume Darth Maul is slow, since I agree that we're meant to assume he's pretty fast, but rather that precognition wasn't sufficient to prevent Obi-wan from leaving an opening that could be fatal against someone of Maul's speed and skill, or to give Maul enough notice to take advantage of the opening. It's one thing to know where to block a blaster bolt or which way an attack's coming from, and that is useful, I'm just arguing that I don't think the evidence we have really supports that Jedi weigh every decision by "precognition chess" before they make it.

Dooku fights with Form II style, a more precise, dueling oriented style. He does not think highly of what he calls the "extravagant acrobatics" of Form IV either. It shows, as there is certainly less of the spinning and jumping and such in his fights (most any of them from the second and third prequels). And while there's still some excessive twirling, Obi-wan also moves into the more defensive and controlled Form III in the later movies, actually specifically because of weaker defensive capabilities Form IV demonstrated in that Episode I fight.

In the first fight I pulled up, Dooku doesn't even make it a minute before a spin. He's similarly quick to spin in RotS even when he's fighting two guys standing on the same side as him. I'm telling you, it's ubiquitous. It started driving me crazy during the prequels before I even considered the tactical implications.

In terms of actual abilities I'd place her as a good weighted average for "Jedi" in general (at least based on the first two seasons, I really need to catch up on that show), and by extension a useful benchmark/comparison point for this thread. Personally, I see Cap eking out a win against Ahsoka once he switches from narrowly matching her agility to exploiting his considerable size advantage.

From what I recall, she takes a pretty big step-up in the hardcore department a few seasons in.

[MLai]

I did. Scrubby lands. Lee turns, his eyebrows shoot up and his face stretches slightly. His left suddenly grips his cape very tightly..

This is turning into 2 interpretations based on the same exact scene, so your supposition is no better than mine, but mine flows logically into the result while yours don't.

You're saying Dooku was surprised and then FROZE like a deer in headlights. He didn't immediately try to counter but wasn't fast enough, no, he FROZE. If that was his level of combat instincts, he wouldn't have lived through the end of AotC.

That doesn't make any sense. If Darth Maul knows Qui-Gon Jinn is going to spin, why doesn't he stab him while spinning? If Qui-Gon Jinn knows Darth Maul is going to attack high then attack low, why would he block above his head in the first place and why would he not move his lightsaber faster to intercept the low attack if he were able to?

It does make sense. To hundreds of millions of Asian readers of novels, movies, TV shows, and manga/manwha. Ask any literate adult male Asian what I'm talking about, and they'll know exactly. Whether or not they like that style of "high fantasy" wuxia compared to more realistic gritty wuxia is another matter, but they'd understand the underlying system.

It doesn't make sense as shown in your above quote because you're not incorporating the fact that they're changing their moves several times in the space of 1 attack. To the outside scrub, it still looks like 1 attack.

That's why it's not about how fast the attack is overall, it's about how many times, and in what complicated ways, you can change your moves during that attack. And it's "chess" in that you're not just playing catch-up, you're trying to trick your opponent or force him into a position where even precog cannot save him.

So if you speed up your attack willy-nilly, but compromise your own precog chess in doing so, you're still going to get countered by your opponent. For wuxia the word is "spiritual/internal", for Jedi the word is "precog."

Old kung fu movies actively try to showcase this, on an elementary level. That's why the fighting looks funny in its particular way: humans can't actually simulate this, and human spectators can't actually see it unless it's choreographed for us to see it. Why do 2 fighters keep pausing in staccato fashion for the camera and interrupting their own movements? They're attempting to emulate this for the audience.

And then someone who has never seen a wuxia movie comes in and talks about how a normal fighter (such as himself) would just punch those dudes in the mouth while they're periodically frozen in their poses, and so Asia's idea of mystical kung fu (i.e. superhuman fighting) is worse than an IRL brawl off the street, in or out-universe. That's how you come off atm.

I know your next counter: How would I know that this is what Jedi are doing? Via context, of everything in-universe and out-universe. Their fighting doesn't make sense otherwise, exactly as you stated. So either I assume that an entire galaxy of prescient fighters who live or die by the sword has no concept of efficient fighting... or I assume that they've achieved a mystical level of fighting prowess that you can't even perceive, as their own setting suggests.

I don't really think that's remotely the same. I'm arguing that we have to judge the fighting styles and abilities of the characters based on the technique we see in their media; I'm saying we should look at "in-universe" data from an "out of universe" perspective, not that we should remove all fictional elements.

When you're excluding a Jedi's precog and Force abilities because you think the choreography between Liam Neeson and Ray Park is too flowery and slow, and not showcasing any precog/Force to your personal satisfaction, then that's exactly what you're doing: Removing all fictional elements.

Notice how you did that for the Jedi, but not for the Cap. Dude, that's Chris Evans performing choreographed moves in a Hollywood set, against CGI creatures on a green screen. What's the difference?

Unless the spin comes at just the right moment when the your opponent can't capitalize on it, thus simply allowing the Jedi to attack from another angle or with increased force. Which some sort of precognitive sense, like the Force, would be greatly helpful in determining. The thing is, in-universe, Jedi fighting styles are the sort of martial arts genuinely used to fight people in life or death situations..

Rev is the only guy who gets it. Everyone else is judging precog mystical monks by the metric of how ordinary humans with ordinary human senses should fight.

[russdm]

I think that you are making some mistakes here that need to be corrected. It has been established in the EU that the Jedi Precog is not fool-power and that they can be caught off guard. The clones get the drop because the Jedi are in combat situations where they cannot tell that the clones are plotting to kill them fast enough to stop it. Watch what happens with the Jedi we are shown onscreen in Episode 3: All but Yoda gets taken out and even Obi-wan gets blasted. Also, Jedi can block only some many shoots with their lightsaber before they get through.

It has shown or stated that is requires rapid fire slugthrowers and even then its only nearly impossible to deflect. Sonic weapons are incapable of being deflected by lightsabers.

It should be known in Jango Fett's backstory that he has killed a Jedi with his bare hands. His opponent was supposed to be either a Jedi knight or master. Given this, there is no way of saying that he doesn't happen to be the best at killing jedi. If that beast hadn't wrecked his jetpack, I believe that Jango could have actually killed Windu because the fight appeared to be even here and Jango trounced Obi-wan hands down.

Any jedi employing two lightsabers or a double bladed lightsaber wins against cap because cap can't block both hits and a double blade can be used to attack at another angle in a good way.

As for Quigon, he uses a fighting style known for its acrobatics and the fact that it weakens you and tires you out. Dooku's form is made for dueling and is style 2, while Obi-wan moves to using form 3 which is described as the best defensive style which makes it nearly impossible for attacks to get through.

Nothing I have seen suggests that Cap had everything about him augmented. It appears to be mainly strength and the ability to wield his shields, whereas the Force improves on every part of you. I have the first cap America movie and the avengers one, I have not read any of the comics, so you will need to mention when Cap is using enhanced speed.

Also, both individuals, Cap and a jedi, function as the plot demands. IF the plot needs them to lose, they will no matter how good they are shown to be. This is what happened with the stormtroopers, and so that material cannot be trusted.

The creator of Babylon 5 said it best: "The (Ship flown by pilots, starfury, I think) moves at the speed of plot." This applies to novels, and all other forms of media.

My information sources for Star Wars, are novels, but is mainly the star wars wikia or wookiepedia as it contains everything star wars related.

Edit: I also back up the bit about complaining about Jedi stuff yet giving Chris Evans and his Hollywood made fighting style in the movies, which is choreographed just like the jedi fights are. So it really sounds hypocritical, "The lightsaber fighting is choreographed and so not believable for a real and I won't accept this but I will allow it for cap where it is also choreographed".

[Legato Endless]

This is turning into 2 interpretations based on the same exact scene, so your supposition is no better than mine, but mine flows logically into the result while yours don't.

I'm not certain what the flaw in logic is, having it pointed out would be of keen interest to me, so I can be aware of it to avoid it in the future.

We have now descended into niche contention..but I am enjoying this so I'll bite. No, the difference is my one supposition is irrelevant to my conclusion and abandoned after my first post. My point was the Jedi precognition is overhyped and they still get killed, sometimes frequently, despite its existence. I've seen threads where people argue Jedi are ambush proof rather than sometimes ambush resistant, except when the plot says the ambush is happening anyway.

You're saying Dooku was surprised and then FROZE like a deer in headlights. He didn't immediately try to counter but wasn't fast enough, no, he FROZE.

He didn't. He didn't do anything defensive. He clenches up. That's the scene. There's no counterpoint, no attempt to do anything defensive. All those signs he gives off when he's fighting at the climax aren't present here. While he clenches up, the Jedi has enough time to straighten his legs from his jump, and then get shot at by Jango.

If that was his level of combat instincts, he wouldn't have lived through the end of AotC.

Why not? He's a duelist and a political leader in the prequel film trilogy. (I'm sure he takes the field in the CG clone wars cartoon. Though this topic reminds me of when Dooku force lightning ambushes Ventress) Not one to encounter ambushes frequently if you can help it. I'm not saying Dooku is helpless, nor that he couldn't wipe the floor with Scrubby normally. And maybe he could take out Scrubs even with the delay. Lord knows that Jedi botched the attack anyway by giving his opponent a chance to pause and ascertain his position.

But he didn't see Scrubby coming, and he was relieved when Scrubby dies. For a brief moment, he didn't feel safe, and he didn't see it coming. That's not supposition. That's what the scene shows. Your interpretation has a lot of additional assumptions.

[MLai]

My point wasn't that we should assume Darth Maul is slow, since I agree that we're meant to assume he's pretty fast, but rather that precognition wasn't sufficient to prevent Obi-wan from leaving an opening that could be fatal against someone of Maul's speed and skill, or to give Maul enough notice to take advantage of the opening. It's one thing to know where to block a blaster bolt or which way an attack's coming from, and that is useful, I'm just arguing that I don't think the evidence we have really supports that Jedi weigh every decision by "precognition chess" before they make it..

Whether or not a decision at any moment in time is weighed by "precog chess" is obviously dependent on the individual Jedi's Force-skill. It's not something we humans can perceive, but in-universe it is there. This can be used to explain how Sidious cut down several Jedis in the space of a few seconds, even though we never see the mook-level Jedis physically move any slower than the named Jedis/Sith in the movies.

In-universe, then, Maul didn't physically take advantage of Obi-wan's opening because they were still actively playing "precog chess". Maybe it was a trap set for Maul, maybe Maul could precognitively see that it wasn't a 1-hit fatal opening, and he felt he had better chess moves he could make rather than try to use the move Obi-wan is leaving open for him, etc etc etc.

Yes, you could say "That is a fatal opening even a human swordsman could take advantage of." But then you're discarding the in-universe fictional elements in preference for normal-human swordfighting. It is the exact same thing as watching a kung fu movie where an old grandmaster thoroughly punks the young protag martial artist, even though the old man was moving slower and less forcefully the entire time, and then scoffing that the fight is unrealistic by your standards.

It has been established in the EU that the Jedi Precog is not fool-power and that they can be caught off guard. The clones get the drop because the Jedi are in combat situations where they cannot tell that the clones are plotting to kill them fast enough to stop it. Watch what happens with the Jedi we are shown onscreen in Episode 3: All but Yoda gets taken out and even Obi-wan gets blasted. Also, Jedi can block only some many shoots with their lightsaber before they get through.

(1) I agree that Jedi's precog-defense is weakest when the Jedi is actively focusing against something else. This can basically explain all the movies situations where the Jedi is felled by an attack he/she "didn't see coming." Ofc, the extent of this weakness depends on individual Jedis. However this weakness doesn't come into play when dueling a single opponent (the Cap), ofc.
(2) Weakness against mass fire is also not a factor in this VS.

It should be known in Jango Fett's backstory that he has killed a Jedi with his bare hands.

We're excluding everything not found in the SW/Marvel movies.

I'm not certain what the flaw in logic is, having it pointed out would be of keen interest to me, so I can be aware of it to avoid it in the future..

You've expanded the Dooku point beyond its original purpose and I (1) no longer is certain exactly what you're trying to argue and (2) have no intention of becoming derailed over a bad movie.
Maybe you can restate your main point in 1 short paragraph. If you don't see me replying, then it means I don't have a problem with that main point so your expanded post is not worth me arguing over.

[Reverent-One]

My point wasn't that we should assume Darth Maul is slow, since I agree that we're meant to assume he's pretty fast, but rather that precognition wasn't sufficient to prevent Obi-wan from leaving an opening that could be fatal against someone of Maul's speed and skill, or to give Maul enough notice to take advantage of the opening. It's one thing to know where to block a blaster bolt or which way an attack's coming from, and that is useful, I'm just arguing that I don't think the evidence we have really supports that Jedi weigh every decision by "precognition chess" before they make it.

Stylistically, I wouldn't describe Jedi precognition in that way either. It's generally portrayed in a more natural, less deliberate way. Not so much Robert Downey Jr's Sherlock Holmes planning out a dozen moves in his head ahead of time sort of style, more falling into the guidance of the force, of simply knowing where to be at the right time.

In the first fight I pulled up, Dooku doesn't even make it a minute before a spin. He's similarly quick to spin in RotS even when he's fighting two guys standing on the same side as him. I'm telling you, it's ubiquitous. It started driving me crazy during the prequels before I even considered the tactical implications.

That's Hollywood swordfighting for you. Game of Thrones, despite being a fairly low magic and more grounded fantasy world, has it just as bad in it's TV show (some minor Season 1 spoilers if people are concerned about such things). When it comes down to it, in a visual medium, swordfighting has to look cool and meet certain expectations, and realistic swordfighting does not do those things. The more realistic shakey-cam, hand-to-hand brawling is acceptable, but give both sides swords and you're back to flynning and strikes that seem to be aimed at opponent's swords rather than the opponents.

[Zrak]

It does make sense. To hundreds of millions of Asian readers of novels, movies, TV shows, and manga/manwha. Ask any literate adult male Asian what I'm talking about, and they'll know exactly. Whether or not they like that style of "high fantasy" wuxia compared to more realistic gritty wuxia is another matter, but they'd understand the underlying system

Sorry, I think you've misapprehended my contention. I'm not arguing that the wuxia novel trope (with which I am familiar) does not make sense, I am arguing that it does not make sense to posit that trope as an explanation for what we see on screen in the Star Wars movies. The idea makes perfect sense, I just don't think it makes sense to apply it in this context.

It doesn't make sense as shown in your above quote because you're not incorporating the fact that they're changing their moves several times in the space of 1 attack. To the outside scrub, it still looks like 1 attack. That's why it's not about how fast the attack is overall, it's about how many times, and in what complicated ways, you can change your moves during that attack.

Okay, so, how many times and in what complicated ways did Darth Maul change standing still with his lightsaber at his side for four full seconds while Kenobi jumped over him and cut him in half? Because that looked to this outside scrub like zero attacks and, for that matter, zero defenses.

And it's "chess" in that you're not just playing catch-up, you're trying to trick your opponent or force him into a position where even precog cannot save him.

Like spinning around, leaving his back wide open while within range of your lightsaber, or maybe off balance with his lightsaber all the way across his body and yours right next to his gut? Precog can't save them in either of those situations unless they speed up their attack willy-nilly . . .

So if you speed up your attack willy-nilly, but compromise your own precog chess in doing so, you're still going to get countered by your opponent.

. . . which is off-limits because that compromises their chess game. So if they won't speed up to save themselves from you stabbing them in the back, why not just stab them in the back? Hell, if you can also move a lot faster, just stab them in the back as fast as you can. That way they won't counter in time even if they also speed up willy-nilly. If they're dead, you won precog chess. You don't need to play anymore. They won't counter you. They'll be dead, they can't. Having speed you aren't willing to use even to end the fight is the same as not having speed.

As the defender, I'd take a chance of still getting stabbed over a certainty of death and speed up the parry that might save my life instead of standing there and letting Obi-wan jump over me and cut me in half. Having speed that you aren't willing to use even if it might save your life is the same as not having speed.

Old kung fu movies actively try to showcase this, on an elementary level. That's why the fighting looks funny in its particular way: humans can't actually simulate this, and human spectators can't actually see it unless it's choreographed for us to see it. Why do 2 fighters keep pausing in staccato fashion for the camera and interrupting their own movements? They're attempting to emulate this for the audience.

Yes, they are. Notice how the Jedi in Star Wars duels aren't doing that? It's because they aren't trying to emulate that for the audience.

I know your next counter: How would I know that this is what Jedi are doing? Via context, of everything in-universe and out-universe. Their fighting doesn't make sense otherwise, exactly as you stated. So either I assume that an entire galaxy of prescient fighters who live or die by the sword has no concept of efficient fighting... or I assume that they've achieved a mystical level of fighting prowess that you can't even perceive, as their own setting suggests.

As Legato Endless and I have both already noted, they fight against others who use a similar style. In their own universe, they're extremely lethal because everybody who fights on their terms uses the same general fighting style.

When you're excluding a Jedi's precog and Force abilities because you think the choreography between Liam Neeson and Ray Park is too flowery and slow, and not showcasing any precog/Force to your personal satisfaction, then that's exactly what you're doing: Removing all fictional elements.

I'm not excluding the force and have never indicated anything of the kind. I am not even excluding precognition, I am just arguing that kind of precognition you advocate is not supported by the texts; it does not follow from what we see on screen that they perceive the future in the way you argue that they do.

Notice how you did that for the Jedi, but not for the Cap. Dude, that's Chris Evans performing choreographed moves in a Hollywood set, against CGI creatures on a green screen. What's the difference?

The difference is that the moves Chris Evans performs against CGI creatures would win in a fight against the moves Liam Neeson and Ray Park use against each other, if we assume Evans were as strong as his character is shown to be and assume Neeson and Park could push him around with telekinesis.

Edit: I also back up the bit about complaining about Jedi stuff yet giving Chris Evans and his Hollywood made fighting style in the movies, which is choreographed just like the jedi fights are. So it really sounds hypocritical, "The lightsaber fighting is choreographed and so not believable for a real and I won't accept this but I will allow it for cap where it is also choreographed".

I believe you misunderstand. The objection to the fighting style of the Jedi is not that it is choreographed, but how it is choreographed. The argument is not that Chris Evans's fighting style is "real" and Christopher Lee's is fictional, but that Chris Evans's fictional fighting style is a better, more efficient fictional fighting style than Christopher Lee's.

In-universe, then, Maul didn't physically take advantage of Obi-wan's opening because they were still actively playing "precog chess". Maybe it was a trap set for Maul,

That just does not make sense. He had the chance to kill his opponent, no question. Obi-wan's sword was on the other side of his body. The only trap Obi-wan could have set would be to speed up willy-nilly to counter Darth Maul's attack, which would apparently ruin Obi-wan's precognition chess and thus still give Maul the advantage and, moreover, Maul could just also speed up his attack willy-nilly so that Obi-wan speeding up willy-nilly wouldn't be fast enough to counter it. Unless Obi-wan speeds up willy-nilly and Darth Maul doesn't, Darth Maul is getting there before Obi-wan. So Darth Maul should speed up willy nilly so he can kill Obi-wan whether Obi-wan speeds up willy-nilly or not.

(Also, I am really glad you said "willy-nilly" because it made keeping my terminology consistent a lot of fun. )

maybe Maul could precognitively see that it wasn't a 1-hit fatal opening,

If you're saying that his precognition was insufficient to know that basically cutting Obi-wan in half would end the fight, I wouldn't say I'm the one selling precognition short.
More seriously, this is what I mean about the wuxia trope not really applying, here. In a wuxia novel, that makes perfect sense, because landing a one-hit kill is a lot harder to do since it usually requires a great deal of precision and perfect technique. In a fight between two guys with laser swords, that's really not the case. Star Wars has its similarities to wuxia novels, I just don't think this is a parallel that holds up.

[MLai]

Okay, so, how many times and in what complicated ways did Darth Maul change standing still with his lightsaber at his side for four full seconds while Kenobi jumped over him and cut him in half? Because that looked to this outside scrub like zero attacks and, for that matter, zero defenses.

I hate this scene myself, with or without the wuxia reasoning. Everyone I know hates this scene. It is basically the one scene that truly ruined TPM, not Jar Jar, not the kid. This.
I don't really know what to say about this scene. But anyone who uses this scene to back himself up I do not consider the victor in any type of argument, except the argument that Lucas sucks.

Like spinning around, leaving his back wide open while within range of your lightsaber, or maybe off balance with his lightsaber all the way across his body and yours right next to his gut? Precog can't save them in either of those situations unless they speed up their attack willy-nilly . . .

Right here, you're doing what you keep saying you wouldn't do. You are ignoring the fictional elements such as Flynning, such as the assumption that Jedi have mystical prowess we scrubs can't even follow, etc... and diving straight towards choreography faults to support your argument that Cap America beats a Jedi.
I'm not here to debate with you whether Cap America's movie had better choreography than TPM. Obviously it does.

Having speed that you aren't willing to use even if it might save your life is the same as not having speed.

If you know wuxia conventions, you should already know that's futile. By the time you've been forced into a situation where even precog (or reading-of-intention, or reading-of-chi, whathaveyou) can't save you, speeding up is too late. The defeated would try to alter his "precog chess" to the last moment, because as a master he already knows that even that futile effort is more effective than trying to speed up. Or at that moment, he loses his nerve and does speed up, and the victor speeds up simultaneously at that moment as well, and the match is ended in an instant.

The above also often happens in movie duels between skilled samurai. The idea is during all that posturing and circling each other, they've been dueling thru will/ spirit/ ki/ whatev. Though that's not all of it.

Yes, they are. Notice how the Jedi in Star Wars duels aren't doing that? It's because they aren't trying to emulate that for the audience.

Neither are they trying to emulate for the audience a style of fighting that is so terrible even a normal human swordsman could curbstomp a Jedi Master. You're still trying to sneak in the idea that the flawed choreography in a movie is a valid reason for supporting that the Cap can beat a Jedi.

As Legato Endless and I have both already noted, they fight against others who use a similar style. In their own universe, they're extremely lethal because everybody who fights on their terms uses the same general fighting style.

This is another of your central contentions that I cannot and will not accept. Again, you're saying that an entire galaxy of people produced a cadre of elite swordfighters, who live or die by their sword skills, after millennia developed a system of swordfighting so terrible that fighters from Earth can beat them easily. This would be funny in a comedy/satire movie, but is not an acceptable premise in a serious take.

Your supporting contention is oh, they made up for it by using the Force and that's why they never got called on their terrible sword skills. That is BS. Again given the above qualifications, every aspect of the martial skill would be perfect, rather than being a weak and flawed system being precariously propped up by a single ability.

And Jedi do swordfight opponents other than Sith, opponents who do not use the Force and rely on other physical strengths. Just in AotC we saw some.

I'm not excluding the force and have never indicated anything of the kind. I am not even excluding precognition, I am just arguing that kind of precognition you advocate is not supported by the texts; it does not follow from what we see on screen that they perceive the future in the way you argue that they do.

This thread does not care what the EU novels say.
What we see on screen? Then what does Liam Neeson's TPM dinner table speech say to you?

The difference is that the moves Chris Evans performs against CGI creatures would win in a fight against the moves Liam Neeson and Ray Park use against each other, if we assume Evans were as strong as his character is shown to be and assume Neeson and Park could push him around with telekinesis.

(1) Yeah, I completely agree with you that Cap America movie choreography can kick SW choreography's ass. Happy?
(2) But actually, if Neeson/Park uses TK directly on Cap's body while fighting Cap, Cap is dead meat.

Star Wars has its similarities to wuxia novels, I just don't think this is a parallel that holds up.

Really, you're only saying that because you're trying to support your position that Jedis are terrible fighters even outside terrible movie choreography.

[lord_khaine]

And again i think this will come down to simple physics, you can move a almost weighless lightsaber an order of magnitudes faster than a heavy metal shield, and so something so simple as a left/right strike, seen several times in Luke's fight against Vader, would leave Cap on the ground within seconds of the start.

Because the attack depends on a slight movement of the wrists and arms, while the other one requires the use of upper body and shoulders as well.

[hamishspence]

Lightsabers apparently produce a severe gyroscopic effect, which makes them difficult to wield, though. Still - non-forceusers have been able to learn to use lightsabers without injuring themselves.

How rapidly does Luke swing his lightsaber about in RoTJ against Jabba's minions? And how rapidly does Cap swing his shield?

[MLai]

Lightsabers apparently produce a severe gyroscopic effect,

Wow, I thought I was the only one who headcanon'ed that. I never knew it was SW canon.
I don't even know/remember why I ever postulated that lightsabers have that effect. I just do.

Still - non-forceusers have been able to learn to use lightsabers without injuring themselves.

It's a terribly impractical weapon for a non-force-user to learn, since one small mistake during training is all she wrote. Especially since there are other melee weapons which can simulate the effect of a lightsaber without being so mistake-intolerant.

[HandofShadows]

Nothing I have seen suggests that Cap had everything about him augmented. It appears to be mainly strength and the ability to wield his shields, whereas the Force improves on every part of you. I have the first cap America movie and the avengers one, I have not read any of the comics, so you will need to mention when Cap is using enhanced speed.

Cap, whatever version you are using, is at the top theoretical limits of what a human being is able to do physically (Cap could outrun a Olympic sprinter without trying too hard). That includes speed, dexterity, reflexes, enduarence and senses. Also his bones are very hard to break as shown when he jumps out of an aircraft several hundred feet in the air and land in the water and is not even winded. His ability to use his shield is a skill, not something he got with the Super Soldier Serum.

[HandofShadows]

And again i think this will come down to simple physics, you can move a almost weighless lightsaber an order of magnitudes faster than a heavy metal shield, and so something so simple as a left/right strike, seen several times in Luke's fight against Vader, would leave Cap on the ground within seconds of the start.

Because the attack depends on a slight movement of the wrists and arms, while the other one requires the use of upper body and shoulders as well.

A lightsabers lack of weight is also a problem. It can't stop or even slow down Cap's shield. If a Jedi tried to black with his Lightsaber he could end up with the lightsaber being forced back into him (zap).

[BWR]

A lightsabers lack of weight is also a problem. It can't stop or even slow down Cap's shield. If a Jedi tried to black with his Lightsaber he could end up with the lightsaber being forced back into him (zap).

To be fair, that's as likely to happen no matter what you block with, if the incoming object has enough kinetic energy. I still think it far more likely that a Jedi would duck something that big coming towards them, or try TK deflecting it rather than using a lightsaber, possibly a combo of both.

[Ossian]

I don t thin you can decide this easily. Tough Vs you picked.

Pulling weapons': when it s a top level fights, even in SW you don't see much of that. It would make "more" sense, that jedis tried to disarm each other before dicing the opponent, but they don't. Or not that often

Cool factor: Captain America is comparable at least to a badass like Mandalore the great, Durge, Boba Fett etc... No matter what the rules say, you can't dispatch him easily.

Vibranium shield: let's say it s one of those fictional materials comparable to mandalorian steel or better. It can withstand the light saber long enough for the sake of this thread

Skills: in a fist fight, Cap could probably take on an average jedi and win. Even with force precog, he is damn fast, tough, and a trained fighter with lots of tricks.

Lightsaber: sorry guys, but this is the real killer. Captain would not throw his disc (force-catch) and getting into melee without a sword when the other guy has a weightltess plasma blade...Imagine you have a shield, and the other guy has a running hose at high pressure. Can you take him down without getting at least a little wet? There. With a light saber a little wet means you loose a limb or two.

So, Force reflexes make the ground at least even , if they don t give the advantage to the jedi, and in terms of skills and technique, a clone wars veteran is not inferior to Captain. Add the jumps and pushes and the ability to do telekinesis (on the captain, throwing stuff at him, intercepting the shield) and the fact that a lightsaber is the ultimate cutting tool (super fast, a mere graze might take a limb) and I give this to the jedi, at least if we are talking about a well trained and battle hardened one.

The captain might get lucky, but on Obi One's best day (just to pick one) he goes home in a body bag (or several small ones....)

[Soras Teva Gee]

That's Hollywood swordfighting for you. Game of Thrones, despite being a fairly low magic and more grounded fantasy world, has it just as bad in it's TV show (some minor Season 1 spoilers if people are concerned about such things). When it comes down to it, in a visual medium, swordfighting has to look cool and meet certain expectations, and realistic swordfighting does not do those things. The more realistic shakey-cam, hand-to-hand brawling is acceptable, but give both sides swords and you're back to flynning and strikes that seem to be aimed at opponent's swords rather than the opponents.

I don't know that I'd be willing to support that brawling is any more accurately/effectively depicted in media then fencing is personally if that's what your suggesting.

I'm not an expert (and would love someone who is to clarify) but what I've ever seen of actual martial arts practice all seems to me to share a certain lack of showiness that could not be farther from say... the giant slugging punches comicbook characters like to give out every other page. With or without a weapon even. And at a certain logic level this makes sense because whatever is in you hand its always a human body doing all the work and that shares certain basics and priorities. Like how many stance do you see that use one foot forward the other rotated out ninety-ish degrees to the side.

I'd be more inclined to say that all real combat doesn't nessecarily look like much on film.

(At least what you see these days. But then my perception is distorted by The Mark of Zorro for the old school days)

[Zrak]

I hate this scene myself, with or without the wuxia reasoning. Everyone I know hates this scene. It is basically the one scene that truly ruined TPM, not Jar Jar, not the kid. This.
I don't really know what to say about this scene. But anyone who uses this scene to back himself up I do not consider the victor in any type of argument, except the argument that Lucas sucks.

Eh, it's not like Dooku doesn't present his back without defense for seconds at a time in his fights, either. If anything, it's more egregious when Dooku decides to turn his back on Anakin to run up some stairs in Revenge of the Sith. He should even use the stairs, since he can force jump, but at the very least he could flynn properly and back up the stairs so he could keep batting away Anakin's swings.

If you know wuxia conventions, you should already know that's futile. By the time you've been forced into a situation where even precog (or reading-of-intention, or reading-of-chi, whathaveyou) can't save you, speeding up is too late. The defeated would try to alter his "precog chess" to the last moment, because as a master he already knows that even that futile effort is more effective than trying to speed up. Or at that moment, he loses his nerve and does speed up, and the victor speeds up simultaneously at that moment as well, and the match is ended in an instant.

Sure, but that's kind of my point. The victor should speed up regardless of what the defeated chooses to do. Since we don't see this happening, we must assume the victor either cannot speed up to take advantage of the opening or did not foresee an opening to take advantage of and could not process it swiftly enough to do so. You said to think about what would happen logically. I am saying that what happens on screen is not what follows logically from the premise that they have the kind of precognition you say they have. As such, I posit that your view of their precognition is untenable.

Neither are they trying to emulate for the audience a style of fighting that is so terrible even a normal human swordsman could curbstomp a Jedi Master. You're still trying to sneak in the idea that the flawed choreography in a movie is a valid reason for supporting that the Cap can beat a Jedi.

I don't think it's unreasonable to say that a sufficiently skilled human swordsman armed with a lightsaber could beat a Jedi master, given that similar things have happened in-universe; Jango Fett killed either a knight or master with his bare hands, at one point. Their dueling style has flaws in one-on-one combat, just like their technique for deflecting blaster shots is ultimately imperfect. An opponent, even one who isn't force-sensitive, who is able to take advantage of those flaws with sufficient lethality will defeat a Jedi. I am arguing that Captain America could do so. Background information directly provided on screen supports this assertion and the combat we actually see on the screen supports this assertion. Your arguments against it are suppositions supported by entirely unrelated wuxia novels.

And Jedi do swordfight opponents other than Sith, opponents who do not use the Force and rely on other physical strengths. Just in AotC we saw some.

Hm. I don't remember this scene. Who are they fighting?

(2) But actually, if Neeson/Park uses TK directly on Cap's body while fighting Cap, Cap is dead meat.

I disagree. Neither Jedi nor Sith seem to use force telekinesis for anything more complex than a force push or using the force to hurl an object at their opponent during one-on-one combat, and a force push is hardly going to be enough to end the fight. Again, if Thor couldn't get past the shield with projectiles, I don't foresee a Jedi doing it, or at least not an "average" Jedi.

I don't know that I'd be willing to support that brawling is any more accurately/effectively depicted in media then fencing is personally if that's what your suggesting.

I think the point is more that jump-cuts and shaky-cam are often used to leave more to the imagination in brawling scenes. The more clearly fight-fighting is depicted, the less accurate it tends to get pretty quickly. For example, play a game next time you watch, say, Buffy, where every time you see Buffy start to do a high kick, you raise your arm like you were going to block it. It is a pretty easy game.
This is largely because a lot of the things we're supposed to believe our heroes are capable of aren't really possible for normal humans; it's going to be nearly impossible for even the most expert unarmed combatant in the real world to take out even a few armed opponents at once, while Cap dispatches several at once with ease on the regular. Since nobody knows how to do that, films tend to leave a lot of the specifics of how the hero did that to our imagination. It's either that or terrible technique and mook incompetence.

[hamishspence]

Hm. I don't remember this scene. Who are they fighting?

Obi-Wan fights Jango - Obi-Wan's using a sword - Jango isn't - the fight is basically a draw.

[BWR]

Obi-Wan fights Jango - Obi-Wan's using a sword - Jango isn't - the fight is basically a draw.

Because Obi-Wan wants to take Jango alive and Boba uses STARSHIP CANNONS to interfere. Even then Obi-Wan basically defeated himself, and still recovered fast enough to pu a tracker on Slave 1.

[hamishspence]

Jango also managed to shoot a Jedi Master - resulting in his death.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Coleman_Trebor

[Zrak]

Obi-Wan fights Jango - Obi-Wan's using a sword - Jango isn't - the fight is basically a draw.

You think? I assumed he was referring to another scene in which both participants were wielding a sword of some kind.

[BWR]

Yes. I know. And....?
My point is that Jango, with guns, rocket, rocket pack and support from effing starship cannons, still failed to beat Obi-Wan. Jango's tough enough to take on some Jedi and win. Fine. Just not Obi-Wan. Or Windu.

[hamishspence]

I assumed he was referring to another scene in which both participants were wielding a sword of some kind.

I didn't remember one of those either - thats why I figured it had to be something else.

TCW's Pre Vizsla was a non-Force Sensitive who was pretty good with the ancient lightsaber known as The Darksaber:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Pre_Vizsla's_Lightsaber

so we know that it is at least possible for a non-Sensitive to do well in a sword fight of this kind.