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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Freefall: DOGGY!

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    I'd figured it was some kind of cultural myopia or intentional ego-stokery implanted in their behavior up till now.
    Just plain "Human orders are absolute and not to be questioned."


    Though the bit where these guys were all designed by a Mad Chimpentist exiled to the arse end of a podunk colony has me unsettled as to how much is a xanatos gambit, sophontic foible, and human laziness as a spanner in the works.
    To paraphrase someone ... "One of the most reliable things in this Universe is the capacity of humanity to take the path of least effort. When given the choice between hard and easy, you can generally bet on a human taking the easy route."
    Last edited by sihnfahl; 2014-06-12 at 07:32 AM.
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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Freefall: DOGGY!

    Quote Originally Posted by sihnfahl View Post
    Just plain "Human orders are absolute and not to be questioned."
    As a side-note, this problems is also present in any highly hierarchic structure. It can very well happen that a subordinate will obediently act upon an order despite knowing better or won't take initiative without explicit order to do so only because a supervisor is not to be doubted.
    In a war it doesn't matter who's right, only who's left.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Freefall: DOGGY!

    Quote Originally Posted by Radar View Post
    As a side-note, this problems is also present in any highly hierarchic structure. It can very well happen that a subordinate will obediently act upon an order despite knowing better or won't take initiative without explicit order to do so only because a supervisor is not to be doubted.
    So take some folks who are designed initially not to question, then give them the ability to question, mix in a fair bit of folks being lazy and acting in such a way that reinforces the idea that questioning may be a necessary thing to acquire due to the harm not doing so will cause in the long term...
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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Freefall: DOGGY!

    Quote Originally Posted by sihnfahl View Post
    Just plain "Human orders are absolute and not to be questioned."

    To paraphrase someone ... "One of the most reliable things in this Universe is the capacity of humanity to take the path of least effort. When given the choice between hard and easy, you can generally bet on a human taking the easy route."
    Which works fine for a simple computer system but not for something that has to carry out complex tasks and interpret ambiguous and incomplete human speech. Really shouldn't have made it out of Beta if it was just that.

    Nah, there's too much of Chekhov's Gun involved for it to *just* be the fact that Humans are so lazy and stupid that they deserve an extinction-level event.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radar View Post
    As a side-note, this problems is also present in any highly hierarchic structure. It can very well happen that a subordinate will obediently act upon an order despite knowing better or won't take initiative without explicit order to do so only because a supervisor is not to be doubted.
    That's actually a form of insubordination except in the most self-destructive of hierarchies, giving *exactly* what was asked for.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2014-06-13 at 05:50 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Freefall: DOGGY!

    If blunt is still targeting the robot audience then he might be in a better position than most people think.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Freefall: DOGGY!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kornaki View Post
    If blunt is still targeting the robot audience then he might be in a better position than most people think.
    Yet, the robots, who would buy that argument, would probably conform to any decision made by humans as well.
    In a war it doesn't matter who's right, only who's left.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Freefall: DOGGY!

    Quote Originally Posted by Radar View Post
    Yet, the robots, who would buy that argument, would probably conform to any decision made by humans as well.
    Not if that decision would bring harm to humans.

    Yet, what did Edge really do to persuade robots that they're a threat to humans? He articulated challenges robots face in a way humans can identify with; he didn't present himself in a way that a robot would find threatening to humans. Edge was Blunt's play to win the human audience, and it backfired.
    Last edited by Math_Mage; 2014-06-13 at 01:59 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Freefall: DOGGY!

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    Which works fine for a simple computer system but not for something that has to carry out complex tasks and interpret ambiguous and incomplete human speech. Really shouldn't have made it out of Beta if it was just that.
    And yet, it still happened. Reference the actions of Kornada's robot.

    Currently, as I recall, there's not enough human population on Jean to be self-sufficient from a human capital standpoint; they're very dependent upon robots for necessary tasks. And the robots unofficially control (read, run) 99% of Jean's economy.

    Eliminating every robot from those tasks will result in great harm to the remainder of Jean's human population. Yet the robot, in pursuit of making Kornada OWN the economy, would destroy the very things that actually run the economy as it stands.

    Nah, there's too much of Chekhov's Gun involved for it to *just* be the fact that Humans are so lazy and stupid that they deserve an extinction-level event.
    It's not. The premise is that the Extinction-Level Event was not a desired aim. Dr Bowman and co were rather upset that it was actually scheduled to be invoked.

    The intent, I believe, was to have intelligent robots reach a critical mass, economically and socially, that when the real event hit, humans would have to accept that robots had become ... human. They couldn't shut down the robots - the colony would be too dependent on having those intelligent robots.
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  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Freefall: DOGGY!

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    Edge was Blunt's play to win the human audience, and it backfired.
    A backfire the size of a nuke and Blunt totaly missed it.
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  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: Freefall: DOGGY!

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    Not if that decision would bring harm to humans.

    Yet, what did Edge really do to persuade robots that they're a threat to humans? He articulated challenges robots face in a way humans can identify with; he didn't present himself in a way that a robot would find threatening to humans. Edge was Blunt's play to win the human audience, and it backfired.
    You have robots who won't tell humans that their orders are bad, because human orders are absolute. This robot just walked on stage and told humans that they are stupid. The conclusion is that these aging Bowman robots are becoming dangerously out of control and must be stopped.

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: Freefall: DOGGY!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kornaki View Post
    You have robots who won't tell humans that their orders are bad, because human orders are absolute. This robot just walked on stage and told humans that they are stupid. The conclusion is that these aging Bowman robots are becoming dangerously out of control and must be stopped.
    See my previous argumentation on this subject. Disobedience is subordinate to harming humans. Since the robot genocide would harm humans, disobedience is not a sufficient counter-case; the counter-case must be based on harm to humans. Sawtooth's latest salvo in this debate is that consciousness is necessary to resolve orders in ways that prevent harm through morality; Blunt's counter, offering Edge's disobedience as a consequence of consciousness, doesn't match up, because Edge doesn't prove that robots are dangerously out of control.

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Freefall: DOGGY!

    In fact all Edge did was prove that the "aging Bowman robots" can be of great use to humans.
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  13. - Top - End - #73
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Freefall: DOGGY!

    Quote Originally Posted by sihnfahl View Post
    It's not. The premise is that the Extinction-Level Event was not a desired aim. Dr Bowman and co were rather upset that it was actually scheduled to be invoked.

    The intent, I believe, was to have intelligent robots reach a critical mass, economically and socially, that when the real event hit, humans would have to accept that robots had become ... human. They couldn't shut down the robots - the colony would be too dependent on having those intelligent robots.
    I meant the extinction of Human life, sorry. That humanity was dumb enough to just *use* the work of a Chimp without understanding it given what they know about Chimps is sticking a fork in the electrical socket on the species level. Granted, it's been suggested that what we know about chimps and what they know about chimps don't exactly sync up.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2014-06-14 at 06:53 PM.
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  14. - Top - End - #74
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Freefall: DOGGY!

    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    I meant the extinction of Human life, sorry.
    That wouldn't be an aim, as the extinction of human life on Jean would also result in the destruction of robots on Jean as well.

    If human life on Jean ended, then there was a problem with the robots, as their aim was to make Jean habitable for humans AND to ensure the lives of the human colonists. The death of the colonists would result in the destruction of the robots AND ensure the destruction of any robot that uses a similar Bowman architecture, as they would be seen as having a flaw. Rather than wait for the flaw to manifest, the easiest route would be to destroy all Bowman-architecture robots.

    That humanity was dumb enough to just *use* the work of a Chimp without understanding it given what they know about Chimps is sticking a fork in the electrical socket on the species level. Granted, it's been suggested that what we know about chimps and what they know about chimps don't exactly sync up.
    Then again, humanity has shown a bit of a disconnect between what is possible and what should be done. Humans have used technology before they fully understood its ramifications or the potential drawbacks.

    Whether human designed or chimp designed, it was the path of least effort. "This was designed, this works, I may not understand it, but it's useful to me and the creator(s) assure me that it does what's intended."
    Last edited by sihnfahl; 2014-06-16 at 10:32 AM.
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  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: Freefall: DOGGY!

    Not only that, but using technology before being fully certain of its drawbacks is a winning strategy in the long run. If we never did anything without absolute certainty, we'd never get anywhere.

  16. - Top - End - #76
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Freefall: DOGGY!

    Quote Originally Posted by Math_Mage View Post
    Not only that, but using technology before being fully certain of its drawbacks is a winning strategy in the long run. If we never did anything without absolute certainty, we'd never get anywhere.
    And the final fun loop? Humans uplifted chimps. So humans literally created Doctor Bowman, who ended up smarter than his creators, who then in turn used him to develop technology that they don't fully understand, but still use.
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  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Default Re: Freefall: DOGGY!

    Is Sam...underestimating human stupidity here? Wow.

    EDIT: On the other hand, that was a good point.
    Last edited by Math_Mage; 2014-06-20 at 12:38 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #78
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Freefall: DOGGY!

    As much grief as Sam has caused humans, he has that great point.

    Robots haven't removed him from society...
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  19. - Top - End - #79
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    Default Re: Freefall: DOGGY!

    And it's the kind of point that can get people to really think. Here we though Sam was going to screw it up but he seems to have done the very opposite.
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  20. - Top - End - #80
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    Default Re: Freefall: DOGGY!

    heheh, I get it, Sam is safe. he is a known lying, thieving, selfish crook whom everyone hates, yet no robot has ever caught him or tried to kill him. he is not only safe from robots, he seems to be thriving despite all expectation that some robot should've gotten him for his crimes by now.
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  21. - Top - End - #81
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Freefall: DOGGY!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    heheh, I get it, Sam is safe. he is a known lying, thieving, selfish crook whom everyone hates, yet no robot has ever caught him or tried to kill him. he is not only safe from robots, he seems to be thriving despite all expectation that some robot should've gotten him for his crimes by now.
    As I recall, they caught him a few times, but he always manages, somehow, to wiggle off.

    And something tells me that if a robot wanted someone dead, they'd be dead. Easy enough. Don't forget Sawtooth had Sam pinned against a wall at one point. And brought Sam airborne. In Pop Rivet's truck. Even threatened to drop Sam.
    Last edited by sihnfahl; 2014-06-20 at 05:29 PM.
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  22. - Top - End - #82
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    Default Re: Freefall: DOGGY!

    Yes, but he is Sam the Wonder Squid. How many humans are half so devious and cunning as he is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wardog View Post
    Rockphed said it well.
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  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockphed View Post
    Yes, but he is Sam the Wonder Squid. How many humans are half so devious and cunning as he is.
    Depends on what you call devious and cunning. Sam's figured out the limits. It seems he knows how far he can go without crossing the line.

    "Yes, he's annoying as all heck, yes, he causes trouble, but it's more trouble to rein him in than his antics are worth."

    Jean's perfect for Sam. The cost of shipping him off-world is apparently very high, and presumably with crime very low on Jean, nobody's wasting the resources to make a prison just for Sam. And his antics aren't worth killing him over.
    Last edited by sihnfahl; 2014-06-20 at 10:41 PM.
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    Default Re: Freefall: DOGGY!

    Sam also has his uses as well. He keeps thing from becoming dull.
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    Default Re: Freefall: DOGGY!

    Quote Originally Posted by HandofShadows View Post
    Sam also has his uses as well. He keeps thing from becoming dull.
    He also remembers to finish every angry mob chase with icecream.
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    Default Re: Freefall: DOGGY!

    Also, doesn't he make good money by doing crimes that nobody except the immidiate victim minds? Like stealing the Star Wars Christmas Special laser disk or stealing the phones of people who talk at the movies?
    Quote Originally Posted by Wardog View Post
    Rockphed said it well.
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  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Default Re: Freefall: DOGGY!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockphed View Post
    Also, doesn't he make good money by doing crimes that nobody except the immidiate victim minds? Like stealing the Star Wars Christmas Special laser disk or stealing the phones of people who talk at the movies?
    Even more: other people pay him to steal those phones.
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    NecromancerGuy

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    It's funny. Blunt isn't drawn any different, but you can just see the light dawning and the bricks dropping.
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  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Default Re: Freefall: DOGGY!

    I love Freefall. :D

    A few points:


    Florence was referring to the genetically engineered chimps as sociopaths, not chimps in general. And from what we've seen, she's right. Dr. Bowman is nuts, but he's smart enough to control himself somewhat, or at least redirect it elsewhere.


    As to why they're using these robots at all: Jean's colonization effort went pear-shaped early on. They were due to get 2 robotic factory ships. One crash landed in a lake, the other never arrived. For the one that crashed, they managed to get it working after several more mishaps, but the robots it produced didn't function. Presumably Dr. Bowman was already on the planet at this point, to be able to modify the robots. He managed to get the broken robots functioning by applying the same generic brain modifications that he developed for the Bowman's wolves. The beachhead colonists' choices at this point were "wait to die"* or "use untested technology" - they chose to live. :D This was covered in the part where Florence is doing modeling for a robotic tailoring class.

    * It was a one-way trip in the beginning, there were no spaceport facilities and the colony ships were dismantled for parts. They did have inflatable tents and basic food (algae) and water so it may have been death of old age or boredom, but still...


    Sam was thrown in prison a few times. He caused utter havoc, including stealing all the cell doors. The other prisoners threw him out. I'm guessing he robbed them blind. :D Roll that around on your tongue: He got thrown in prison and STOLE the DOORS. There's a reason humanity has Sam marked as "Shoot on sight" if he ever enters the Sol system.


    The robots only just found out about their Bowman brain architecture, not all of them may even know it yet, or understand the significance, or some who do may have chosen to disregard it. They've been "brought up" being told they are products, that they need to obey human orders and that humans are perfect and their orders are flawless - on top of 'hardware' in their brain enforcing that behavior too - and they know they can easily be scrapped and replaced if they are considered defective. So they're working against years, decades in some cases, of behavior, instinct, and training. Some have done it. Edge is a rare case. The good news is, the robots are overwhelmingly nice and friendly overall, completely believing in the near-Utopian society they are helping to build, utterly at peace with humans, and the worst danger they present to humanity is maybe accidentally making them grand-creators. :D
    Last edited by Beeskee; 2014-07-12 at 08:34 AM.
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  30. - Top - End - #90
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Freefall: DOGGY!

    Quote Originally Posted by Beeskee View Post
    One crash landed in a lake
    After a good portion of it had filled with superheated atmospheric gasses during entry. Fortunately, the fires were put out when the ship flooded.
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