3.5 Bard am I missing something, or is this class really so bad?

[Story]

Still not sure how someone would get +14d6 on d-fire inspiration. Unless you're using multiple songs of it at once.

As mentioned, Words of Creation doubles the bonus.

[nyjastul69]

As mentioned, Words of Creation doubles the bonus.

How does the bonus get to +7? +4 for lvl 20, +1 for IB, +1 for SotH, double that with Words of Creation. End your turn and then spend an immediate action on a Badge of Valor to add +1 for a +13 total. It seems the +14 is somehow doubling the BoV but I can't see how. What am I missing?

[sleepyphoenixx]

How does the bonus get to +7? +4 for lvl 20, +1 for IB, +1 for SotH, double that with Words of Creation. End your turn and then spend an immediate action on a Badge of Valor to add +1 for a +13 total. It seems the +14 is somehow doubling the BoV but I can't see how. What am I missing?

Vest of Legends and a masterwork lute get you +6 levels for bardic music, adding another +1.

[nyjastul69]

Vest of Legends and a masterwork lute get you +6 levels for bardic music, adding another +1.

Okay then. I knew about the VoL, but I didn't realize a MW lute also increased effective level by one. So, VoL and MW lute get you to +5, +1 for SotH, +1 for IB, total of +7 doubled for WoC. That's a total of +14. We can then use BoV as an immediate action and add +1 more for a total of +15, correct?

[Zalphon]

The Dragonfire Inspiration makes you party extraordinarily powerful. However, another option for you is:

Bard 1/Druid 2/Rogue 2/Green Whisperer 5/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9

6th Level Bard Spellcasting (3rd Level Spells)
17th Level Druid Spellcasting (9th Level Spells)
10th Level Sublime Chord Spellcasting (9th Level Spells)

14 BAB
10 FORT
9 REF
15 WILL

Use the following:

Harmonizing Short (Long possibly) Sword +5 (Weapon)
Fearsome Mithral Breast Plate +5 (Armor)
Dove's Harp (Instrument)

Bardic Knack (ACF)
Draconic Heritage (Feat - Go for a dragon with Force or Sonic Damage for Dragonfire Inspiration)
Dragonfire Inspiration (Feat)
Snowflake Wardance (Feat)
Melodic Casting (Feat)
Words of Creation (Feat)
Doomspeak (Feat)

[Pluto!]

The Dragonfire Inspiration makes you party extraordinarily powerful. However, another option for you is:

2 questions your build raises:
-How are you qualifying for Sublime Chord with 6 levels of bard casting?
-How are you qualifying for Draconic Heritage with 0 Sorcerer levels?

[Zalphon]

3rd Level Spellcasting from Bard makes me qualify.

And you are absolutely right in regards to Draconic Heritage. I forgot I couldn't get around that with Sublime Chord. Oh well.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The Dragonfire Inspiration makes you party extraordinarily powerful. However, another option for you is:

Bard 1/Druid 2/Rogue 2/Green Whisperer 5/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9

You're missing one level of arcane spellcasting for SC and you need Dragontouched to qualify for Draconic Heritage.
Dragonfire Inspiration does not work with force damage. The eligible energy types are named in the feat.
A short sword doesn't work with Snowflake Wardance because it's not a slashing weapon.
You also have only 16 levels of druid casting.

Snowflake Wardance can be traded for Dragontouched no problem. You can boost your AB with normal Inspire Courage since you can decide when you sing wether you want DFI or normal IC and they stack.
You'll have to sacrifice some casting ability to make the build work or invest feats to take Spelldancer to progress casting over the levels it takes to get Evasion.

[Pluto!]

3rd Level Spellcasting from Bard makes me qualify.

And you are absolutely right in regards to Draconic Heritage. I forgot I couldn't get around that with Sublime Chord. Oh well.

Are you using a trick? Level 3 spells come at bard level 7.

You could definitely take care of either or both problem with some small-scale fiddling (eg. picking up Evasion with Impulse Boots+Open Chakra to use the extra levels for ), but those adjustments snowball into some larger-scale decisions for the build that might turn into more significant retooling (Impulse Boots+Open Chakra means opening two feats, which could mean fiddling with racial choices, or dropping existing feats, altering class routes...)

[Socratov]

How to get a whole lot of Inspire Courage/DFI:

lvl 20: IC 4
Vest of Legends: doesn't really help here since lvl 26 is the next inspire courage bump
Masterwork Horn: increases the Accuracy bonus of IC by 1, loses fear resistance
Song of the Heart (eberron song for feat ACF): IC +1
Inspiration boost (SpC)/Badge of Valour(MIC) (activated in that order, costing your next turn's swift action): +1 and +1 IC
Words of Creation: current total * 2
So: (4+1+1+1+1)*2= 16 bonus to to-hit, (4+1+1+1)*2=14 bonus to damage
or
since DFI is keyed off the to-hit bonus of IC where 1 bonus to to-hit equals 1d6 of fire damage (unless you have a different and clear parentage with a breath weapon of one of the main 5 elemental damage types [fire, cold, acid, sonic, electric])

which equals 16d6 fire damage on each hit. No imagine 2 lion totem whirling frenzy barbarians. A crater sounds like an apt description of the aftermath.

Now if you take levels in classes that don't advance bard, you can buy a Vest of legends, and/or take the feat Chaos Music. the former makes you appear 5 levels higher for bardic music purposes, the latter 4 levels higher for bardic music purposes, capped by your total hitdice (i.e. bard 9/virtuoso 1/ with Vest of legends and chaos music counts as bard 15 for the purpose of bardic music and a bard 9/fighter 6 with vest of legends and chaos music counts as a lvl 18 bard for bardic music purposes).

Hope that clears it up.

Please note, I interpret that if you have used your swift action for Inspirational Boost (spell, swift action) and then use your badge of valour (immediate action for next turn's swift action) that it's possible. This may not be entirely legal but it can be interpreted that way in the SRD. Incredibly cheesy though to abuse action rules like that though... else you're stuck with only a measly 14d6 bonus damage for every ally within hearing distance... Sheesh...

[Zalphon]

Are you using a trick? Level 3 spells come at bard level 7.

You could definitely take care of either or both problem with some small-scale fiddling (eg. picking up Evasion with Impulse Boots+Open Chakra to use the extra levels for ), but those adjustments snowball into some larger-scale decisions for the build that might turn into more significant retooling (Impulse Boots+Open Chakra means opening two feats, which could mean fiddling with racial choices, or dropping existing feats, altering class routes...)

Likely drop the Rogue then for a level of Druid and a level of Bard. And take two flaws.

[Pluto!]

Personally, when I build melee bards, I usually forgo Inspirational Boost in order to use Song of the White Raven and to get that extra early round of attacks in. In D&D's haymaker-centric combat system, disabling an enemy a round early is usually worth having a slightly smaller pile of DFI dice to gloat over. Of course that changes if the party has multiple weapon attackers beside the bard, but it can be something to keep in mind - especially in smaller groups.

[Talya]

Not to knock Sublime Chord (as it's a great class), but you miss out on a lot of what Bard offers by multiclassing, at all. With Splatbook support, a single-classed bard is absolutely the most versatile and powerful Tier 3 in the game by a wide margin, all the way from 1-20.

My ideal bard build if single classed:

Silverbrow Human is the best race (as you can instantly qualify for Dragonfire Inspiration, and get that bonus feat)
Savage Bard variant from UA is much better even if only for trading Reflex saves for Fort saves.
Swap Bardic Knowledge for Bardic Knack.
Swap Countersong for Spellbreaker Song.
Swap Fascinate for Hymn of Healing (just because)
Swap Suggestion for Song of the Heart (Feat, eberron ACF, but not setting specific)
Take Jack of All Trades (to enable bardic knack across trained-only skills)Snowflake Wardance, Dragonfire Inspiration, and a heritage feat to move you to some sonic dragon. Also consider Melodic Casting, Martial Study (Devoted Spirt maneuver of your choice - we're going for intimidate as a class skill here) and Doomspeak. If you're going very, very good-aligned, Words of Creation is godlike.
Spell: Inspirational Boost.
Ensure you have a Crystal Echoblade and a Badge of Valor.

Right there, you have a perfect bard. Depending on your DM (and the availability of Flaws), you might consider two crystal echoblades and Two Weapon Fighting. It's a good idea, but the wording of Snowflake Wardance makes some DMs ban it with a second weapon (incorrectly, I believe.)

Now, about multiclassing:

There is no doubt that Sublime Chord is a powerful PrC, and straight up improves the bard. But it isn't without sacrifice. Sublime Chord (if you don't go the virtuoso route) costs you bardic music progression, it lowers your hit die, it hurts your BAB, and your skills. It DOES potentially stack Bardic Knack, which is why I consider a bard/sublime chord build better than bard/sublime chord/virtuoso. However, don't kid yourself - with SC, you are sacrificing versatility for power. You are a sorcerer with a bardy coating. So the question is - What do you want to play, a bard or a sorcerer? There's no wrong answer here, but that IS the choice you're making with Sublime Chord.

Virtuoso may seem almost like cheating - here's how you can advance sublime chord spellcasting without sacrificing much in terms of other bardly fun, but the kicker here is it doesn't advance Bardic Knowledge, which also means it cannot be argued to stack with the Bardic Knack ACF.

Any multiclassing at all also cuts into the effectiveness of the Crystal Echoblade.

Alternate multiclassing options that I really enjoy include the Bardadin or the Bardblade builds, but those are not all that bardic at all.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Personally, when I build melee bards, I usually forgo Inspirational Boost in order to use Song of the White Raven and to get that extra early round of attacks in. In D&D's haymaker-centric combat system, disabling an enemy a round early is usually worth having a slightly smaller pile of DFI dice to gloat over. Of course that changes if the party has multiple weapon attackers beside the bard, but it can be something to keep in mind - especially in smaller groups.

If the party melee actually optimizes for DFI (high number of attacks) there's really no point squeezing out every last bit of bonus dice. There aren't many published monsters that can stand up to two or more hasted TWFers with 10d6+ bonus damage per attack. Anything that can is probably immune to the bonus damage so more dice won't make a difference.

[Ansem]

The class is really that bad, it's features are fun but mediocre, midgame it simply can't keep up and lategame a Bard is useless because none of it's abilities have scaled well.

[nyjastul69]

The class is really that bad, it's features are fun but mediocre, midgame it simply can't keep up and lategame a Bard is useless because none of it's abilities have scaled well.

O.o You can hold this opinion, but it doesn't really hold up well to a serious scrutiny. Bards are a very effective 20 level class. As said before, in core, the only classes superior to it are Wizard, Sorcerer, Druid and Cleric.

[eggynack]

The class is really that bad, it's features are fun but mediocre, midgame it simply can't keep up and lategame a Bard is useless because none of it's abilities have scaled well.

That doesn't really seem accurate at all, given all of the arguments made to the contrary by everyone in this thread. Seriously, it's a class that gets silent image, alter self, glibness, dimension door, shadow conjuration (seems more sweet on a bard, actually), (greater) dispel magic, shadow evocation, project image, and irresistible dance, to give a quick smattering from every level of play. Against full casters, they are certainly not up to that power level without some real pushing, but against just about anything else, that list alone will make them highly competitive. Then you get all of the other amazing class features, and you arrive at a class that likely stands right at the pinnacle of tier 3.

[ericgrau]

Well what the OP is saying does indeed happen often among rookies or even veterans who don't learn better. Often they become the jack of all trades but master of none, and suck at everything because you can only do one thing per round. What you need to do instead is pick the low level stuff that's just as good as the high level stuff and do that every turn. Plus max out your between combat stuff which has no limit on the number of turns you can use.

There are low level spells that continue to work well into high level, such as glitterdust, haste and illusions. You can skillmonkey too between fights. You can sometimes dip for even more skill access if you want, though you'll lose a caster level. During a buff round you might sing, but not at other times unless you use a trick to make it faster than a standard action. And you might want to haste in the buff round instead. There's also UMD plus bard scrolls and wands too for even more between combat utility. You have a good caster level for crafting though spell availability is difficult without resorting to wands or scrolls. And there are certain things any class can do, such as tripping if you focused strength. With free whip proficiency you can do it from the safety of reach.

And ya there is a lot of splatbook stuff to make your songs both crazy strong and a swift action to activate. So you aren't forced to choose between singing and casting. Each one by itself isn't super crazy, but you can stack 5 of them at once. And then it is.

[Socratov]

The class is really that bad, it's features are fun but mediocre, midgame it simply can't keep up and lategame a Bard is useless because none of it's abilities have scaled well.

excuse my disbelief, but did you actually read the posts made in this thread? sure it doesn't measure up to the full casters who are not just strong by lategame, but just shy of being gods. Sure the Bard doesn't have as many or as serious game breaking features as full casters, but if you want to break a campaign right open without invalidating about 2/3rds of available classes, a bard does help.

[Ansem]

excuse my disbelief, but did you actually read the posts made in this thread? sure it doesn't measure up to the full casters who are not just strong by lategame, but just shy of being gods. Sure the Bard doesn't have as many or as serious game breaking features as full casters, but if you want to break a campaign right open without invalidating about 2/3rds of available classes, a bard does help.

Just saying that veteran groups, Bard is never a viable option unless you go theurge because the class scales too poorly.

[Socratov]

Just saying that veteran groups, Bard is never a viable option unless you go theurge because the class scales too poorly.

so, even though we have given evidence of the Bard's excellence we must take your word for it that it basically sucks?

[eggynack]

Just saying that veteran groups, Bard is never a viable option unless you go theurge because the class scales too poorly.

Pretty sure you're just wrong on this one. Perhaps if you tried to refute any of the massive number of points levied against your position, there would be reason to doubt the forum's claims towards bard awesomeness, but you haven't, and there isn't.

[Xerlith]

Pretty sure you're just wrong on this one. Perhaps if you tried to refute any of the massive number of points levied against your position, there would be reason to doubt the forum's claims towards bard awesomeness, but you haven't, and there isn't.

Well, he might be right, if this table of veterans happens to be the table Tippy's group sits around.

[eggynack]

Well, he might be right, if this table of veterans happens to be the table Tippy's group sits around.

I think bards actually have a pretty reasonable ceiling, especially when you factor in sublime chord shenanigans. Those probably aren't a thing that should factor into standard assessment, but when you push the optimization level that high, it feels like a fair maneuver to me.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Well, he might be right, if this table of veterans happens to be the table Tippy's group sits around.

On the other hand there's 20+ year veterans around that still think that Weapon Focus is the best fighter feat ever, clerics are for healing and wizards should be blasters.
The statement is entirely subjective.

[Xerlith]

On the other hand there's 20+ year veterans around that still think that Weapon Focus is the best fighter feat ever, clerics are for healing and wizards should be blasters.
The statement is entirely subjective.

That's exactly what I meant though - if they are not optimizing like mad, and as you said - not all veterans do - the Bard should be perfectly able to hold his own.

[dextercorvia]

That's exactly what I meant though - if they are not optimizing like mad, and as you said - not all veterans do - the Bard should be perfectly able to hold his own.

But without some optimization, Bard can be really bad. If you try to onehand a weapon in the frontline, and ignore you good BFC spells, you are missing out.

[Anlashok]

The class is really that bad, it's features are fun but mediocre, midgame it simply can't keep up and lategame a Bard is useless because none of it's abilities have scaled well.

In what scenario?

A 4 man wizard-cleric-druid-bard group? Yeah, the bard can't keep but... but there's only a couple classes in the game that could in the first place and the bard would still be far more useful than most anything else outside that select few.

Hell, you have it exactly backwards too. The bard is the worst at extremely low levels when you have very few spells, very few songs and not enough skillpoints or WbL to mindrape people with diplomacy or abuse UMD.

But without some optimization, Bard can be really bad.

That might explain ansem. At a low level of play with little proper spell use I imagine the bard can't hold a candle to their fireball wizards or monks (which are obviously broken as ****).

[Deophaun]

How does the bonus get to +7? +4 for lvl 20, +1 for IB, +1 for SotH, double that with Words of Creation. End your turn and then spend an immediate action on a Badge of Valor to add +1 for a +13 total. It seems the +14 is somehow doubling the BoV but I can't see how. What am I missing?

Technically, there's no instructions on when you need to apply WoC. You could, theoretically, start your bardic music normally, and then, three rounds later when a big bad shows up in the middle of a routine fight, kick your bardic music into Exalted gear by incorporating the WoC. So yeah, you could get up to +14 with IB and BoV.

[Talya]

Just saying that veteran groups, Bard is never a viable option unless you go theurge because the class scales too poorly.

That's actually the opposite of the truth.

In the hands of a newbie, the bard can seem poor. You don't solve anything through direct force using a bard.

In the hands of a moderately skilled player, the bard will far outpace every tier 4-6 class on its way up to 20, single-classed.

In the hands of a master, it will far outpace every other tier 3 class as well.

Making a bard highly effective requires -- if not a fair bit of optimization talent, at least some research. But "Not scales well?" There's no level you can pick where a single classed bard can't be better than every other class that isn't Tier 1 or Tier 2...and truthfully, they'd still be useful in an all tier 1-2 party.