Europe and Russia in the Playground II

[FinnLassie]

Finnish living in Scotland here.


Europe is a geographical concept, one of the continents. I really don't like generalising people, things, or anything by their continent.

[Kaworu]

EDIT to take a stab at some of your other questions:



That would be a great bonus for you, but it's not mandatory to get an immigration permit to Canada. Your English would be more than enough, unless you specifically aim at immigrating to Quebec.

I know, but it kinda sucks to live in bilingual country and to know only one of the languages - isn't it?

I don't find that weird. Dreaming of greener pastures is a fairly common and understandable tendency in us, humans. I know I have my share of it by the way: If your dream of living abroad comes to pass, you'll start dreaming about moving back home...)

Also, if your goal is to get married (I'm assuming you mean same-sex marriage, my apologies if I got that wrong), there are now quite a few places in Europe where you can do that, and they will let you immigrate without any screening (mostly). Canada is not nearly as easy to get in.

I know, but for more of the places, you have to know additional language. Also, it's not so great as with Canada (to my best understanding).

For example:
- Same-sex marriages in France are legal... BUT not for Polish imigrants
- German people have "only" civil partnership (but with a lot of right, even though it's still a civil union, not a marriage)
- Spain has same-sex marriages for everyone... BUT they have crisis
- Same-sex marriage in Scandinavian countries are good... BUT you have to know less-known language(s). The same goes for Netherlands
- additionally, in Netherlands there are a lot of young people from arabic countries attacking gay people. And Amsterdam is now not a safe place for sexual minorities
- Same-sex marriage in UK is great... BUT it's not universal for the whole country. Also, recently there are attack on Polish people in UK because of this whole "opening borders for Polish people was an error" philosophy.

So if you compare the situation to Canada, it has its bright sides.

[FinnLassie]

I know, but it kinda sucks to live in bilingual country and to know only one of the languages - isn't it?

I don't really think French is that necessary out of Quebec. It's a nice extra though, and nothing wrong knowing more languages. I mean, in Finland knowing Swedish is only helpful in the areas that are mostly Swedish speaking.

[Bubble181]

Belgian here. Speak Dutch, French, English, and a bit of German and Greek.

You can get married in Belgium, shouldn't be a problem.

[Kaworu]

I know I can get married in Belgium. However, when I looked at the job announcements, it was like "speak french and dutch, speak french and dutch, speak french and dutch" :-) So it's not so easy to emigrate to Belgium, where (that is my impression) you have to be fluent in two completely new languages.

Or I am just wrong, it can be so :-P

[Gwynfrid]

I know, but it kinda sucks to live in bilingual country and to know only one of the languages - isn't it?

Unless you live in Quebec or New Brunswick (the only officially bilingual province), you will not very often meet French-speaking people. They exist in other provinces (living in Ontario, I'm a member of that group) but they are a minority, and they all speak excellent English. So, French is very nice to have, can help you to get a job. But not critical.

- Same-sex marriages in France are legal... BUT not for Polish imigrants

My, you're right! I didn't know that. A pre-existing treaty has precedence over French law in this case.

Regarding your points about the dangers to gay people in The Netherlands or the UK, I think they may be more than a little exaggerated. But we're again getting close to no-go topics, here.

So if you compare the situation to Canada, it has its bright sides.

Canada is a fantastic place, and I speak as an immigrant myself: Very, very welcoming. However, immigration there isn't as easy as it used to be. It's still easier than to the US, or to pretty much every other country in the world, as far as I know... Just, it takes significant time, effort, and qualifications. Also, finding a job in your field, without prior local experience, can be really difficult.

[Kaworu]

Hm, I always wondered about this "local experience". It is my impression that Canadians are a little bit "prejudiced"(???) against work experience from another countries. How do they explain this trait? Because, there is not big difference between being a doctor in Canada and for example Libia, right?

EDIT: I was also talking about anti-Polish violence in the UK, not anti-gay like in case of the Netherlands ;-)

[FinnLassie]

I've heard a few Finns living in Scotland having some slurs shouted at them for being from Poland and taking the local people's jobs... Any lighter skinned person speaking English with a non-native accent seems to be Polish to some people.


Anyways, stepping away from borderline-political stuff...

When you guys have been to a different European country, even the one next to you, what have been the biggest cultural shocks? I think mine was when moving to the UK, shops are closed so damn early. And people touch you. THEY TRY TO ENTER MY PRIVATE BUBBLE

[Gwynfrid]

When you guys have been to a different European country, even the one next to you, what have been the biggest cultural shocks? I think mine was when moving to the UK, shops are closed so damn early. And people touch you. THEY TRY TO ENTER MY PRIVATE BUBBLE

In the UK? Seriously? You didn't mistake it for Italy, right?

It's a well-known thing that every person has a "private bubble" of comfort, the size of which is dependent on circumstances (think crowded subway vs movie theater vs empty street at night) and on cultural background. I take it people in Finland have a default bubble size that's bigger than most places?

Hm, I always wondered about this "local experience". It is my impression that Canadians are a little bit "prejudiced"(???) against work experience from another countries. How do they explain this trait? Because, there is not big difference between being a doctor in Canada and for example Libia, right?

There is, absolutely. Expectations of how you're going to be treated varies very strongly from country to country. Some "conditions" only exist in certain countries, which is why this Wikipedia article doesn't exist in any language other than French

More seriously: Medicine is practiced on humans, not machines, that's why the cultural component is important.

Another important factor, of course, is government regulation of certain professions. This has to do with expectations of quality and fair competition... and, also, interest groups protecting their turf. So, you will find that some regulations imply that you have to be recognized by certain professional associations, in order to get a job in your field. Also, on the job market, you will find many offers calling for local experience. It's not really prejudice, so much as making sure you'll be immediately contributing to the position. If other applicants have the local experience and you don't, you'll get passed over because hiring them is just less risky.

[Aedilred]

I'm a Brit, and therefore European as far as non-European matters go.

For me, "Europe" has a variety of meanings. In political terms I obviously tend to associate it with the EU, but ideologically and culturally I perhaps think of it rather more broadly than is usual, geographically (potentially) encompassing north Africa and the Levant as well as the mainland. Plus Georgia, although I don't tend to think of Armenia as European (even though, geographically, it is), nor most of Turkey. But then I think Europe is a kind of state of mind at least as much as it is a definable geographic area.

[Kaworu]

Finn:

So you know why I don't wanna go to UK ;-) I'm a really skinny and fragile and I am afraid of thugs shouting "our jobs, not yours".

Gwynfrin:

Personally I think that everywhere in the world you have to be gentle for patients if you are a doctor. Also, the "local experience" apply also to engineering and IT positions - and source code / rules of engine working are always the same.

(But I can be wrong and perhaps IT/Engineering jobs are exception from the rule).

(And one more thing, considering the local experience - it's mean I should emigrate soon after my studies, huh? :-))

Aedilred:

Nice, you are perhaps the first Briton we have in the topic - neat! :-D

(I think Armenia and Israel are also European, but definition of the both countries as beings or beings-not depends on asked person, I believe ;-))

[Eldariel]

...And people touch you. THEY TRY TO ENTER MY PRIVATE BUBBLE

In the UK? Seriously? You didn't mistake it for Italy, right?

It's a well-known thing that every person has a "private bubble" of comfort, the size of which is dependent on circumstances (think crowded subway vs movie theater vs empty street at night) and on cultural background. I take it people in Finland have a default bubble size that's bigger than most places?.

A Finn's "private bubble" resembles a castle. In trains a slot with three benches opposing each other is full when there are 3 people sitting there; nobody sits adjacent or opposite to a stranger (exaggeration with regards to rush hour trains of course). Same goes for busses and such. Of course, friends can sit next to each other and occupy the whole bench row. You know that "First Kiss"-video of strangers kissing that circulated the internet? Finnish version.

Of course, it's just an exaggerated stereotype, and such generalizations never apply to everybody in a country anyways, and I can say I have had some interesting discussions with strangers over my one and a half decades of regular use of mass transportation here; but I can still count those cases on one hand, and I'm quite extroverted. It's hard to approach Finns, and we prefer to be left alone. On the other hand Finns are incredibly polite, honest and so on (there was that one test of leaving wallets on the streets; 11/12 wallets were returned to the owner in Helsinki and I've lost my own wallet once and got it back and so on) to strangers so there are sides and sides.

[Kato]

I guess I might as well say hi here.
in a
German, here. But except English not too good in other languages, even widespread ones. Just a few phrases a handful of languages, greetings and such. (I'm just too lazy to sit down and learn something new, I'm afraid. And busy with doing pointless stuff online)

Also, I guess I'll have to admit to not having been around Europe too much, but then I rarely travel anywhere on holidays. (Then again, at the moment I'm a penniless student and I'm always shocked when other people tell me they can afford to spend their holidays... well, anywhere more than a few kilometers away, really)


I guess a major point of defining "Europe" is a lot of thing many people think of regards the EU much more than the other regions (then again, the part of Europe that's not in the EU is getting smaller and smaller. Probably some day Switzerland will be a colorless smudge on the map and wherever it stops in the East... (Or we will never stop and north Asia will be part of the EU as well. Muahaha))
But really, there is not very much that differentiates the Europe as a "community" from other industrial nations, I think... Yeah, there are enough jokes about the weird Japanese or the *insert random amount of insulting attributes* Americans, but there are just as many stereotypes or differences or between any European country... or even within most of them. I guess we can unite in our common distaste for anything that is beyond our borders as long as as we need to forget our problems with each other once in a while. (Wow, that sounds much more cynic than it's meant to)

[Socratov]

Dutchman reporting in, speaking Dutch and English fluently, understanding Frisian, German and French, trying to get into Italian (though I really should keep up with Duolingo)

On what Europe means to me: mostly a more cultured area then the US (though that's mostly about gun control, healthcare and the ability to have dinner using both knife and fork at the same time), though when push comes to shove (literally?) utterly powerless due to internal struggle in the EU, which ultimately in a bureaucratical nightmare (2 seats of power, really?) trying to usurp the countries' autonomy and identity. Even though we can't live without the EU since the Netherlands profit so much from the trade agreements and the euro value suppressing Greece, Spain, Italy and Ireland. Which makes us secretly rich (exporting even more the Germany per capita).

[Killer Angel]

Reporting from Italy!

Known languages: other than italian, I speak english (what a surprise, isn't it?) and some french (at basic level).
I cannot count german, because I probably know just 30-40 words and a couple of pre-made phrases.

[Krazzman]

Biggest shocks while visiting other countries?

France:
Being in French Class while visiting the Secondary level (Realschule, don't know a better word) we visited Paris once in this class.
Typically my classmate and me were searching for a supermarket in one of the crowded places there when we had a break. (Wanting to refill drinks and food).
We were insulted after trying to communicate in french (we both weren't that good at it, but we tried). And not even once.

England:
Party is over at midnight. I was on a trip near london recently and we went out partying. The club closed at midnight... seriously weird. And when zapping through the tvprogram... every second ad was something about how to get money. I think it is the weirdest place I have visited so far.

@Migrating to Canada...
So if I avoid Quebec and New Brunswick I won't need to speak french, right?

[Aedilred]

England:
Party is over at midnight. I was on a trip near london recently and we went out partying. The club closed at midnight... seriously weird. And when zapping through the tvprogram... every second ad was something about how to get money. I think it is the weirdest place I have visited so far.

London is a bit weird. In theory, it's a 24-hour city, but in practice, because most public transport shuts down around 11-12 and cabs are so expensive (partly anyway, and partly because everyone lives so far away from the centre) parties tend to break up quite "early" unless the guestlist is relatively local. A lot of clubs do go on into the early hours, though - in part I suspect because if you can afford to spend all night at a London club you can afford a cab home...

Outside London, it really varies. Public transport outside London is often pretty poor (some cities are fine, but most towns and even some relatively large cities have dreadful public transport) and because of the combination of drink-driving laws and the constitutional inability of an Englishman to go out for the evening without getting at least a bit hammered, it can again be hard to get home unless you leave early. At least taxis tend to be less unreasonably-priced outside London though, so they're a more viable option.


From my experience of both Britain/England and France, though, the capital and its population are almost completely non-representative of the rest of the country. Resentment of London in the rest of the UK, and of Paris in France, is pretty high, for sucking up all the government's attention, for turning other towns and cities into dormitories, and because the people are generally seen as rude and unhelpful. I think a lot of the negative stereotypes tourists hold about France are really Parisian stereotypes... and although I'm less familiar with tourist stereotypes of the UK, I wouldn't be surprised if it were the same here.

[Krazzman]

London is a bit weird. In theory, it's a 24-hour city, but in practice, because most public transport shuts down around 11-12 and cabs are so expensive (partly anyway, and partly because everyone lives so far away from the centre) parties tend to break up quite "early" unless the guestlist is relatively local. A lot of clubs do go on into the early hours, though - in part I suspect because if you can afford to spend all night at a London club you can afford a cab home...

Outside London, it really varies. Public transport outside London is often pretty poor (some cities are fine, but most towns and even some relatively large cities have dreadful public transport) and because of the combination of drink-driving laws and the constitutional inability of an Englishman to go out for the evening without getting at least a bit hammered, it can again be hard to get home unless you leave early. At least taxis tend to be less unreasonably-priced outside London though, so they're a more viable option.


From my experience of both Britain/England and France, though, the capital and its population are almost completely non-representative of the rest of the country. Resentment of London in the rest of the UK, and of Paris in France, is pretty high, for sucking up all the government's attention, for turning other towns and cities into dormitories, and because the people are generally seen as rude and unhelpful. I think a lot of the negative stereotypes tourists hold about France are really Parisian stereotypes... and although I'm less familiar with tourist stereotypes of the UK, I wouldn't be surprised if it were the same here.

I can't remember where we exactly were. But I know we weren't in london. I think I remember seeing a place about Seven Kings (after looking at google maps).

[Aedilred]

I can't remember where we exactly were. But I know we weren't in london. I think I remember seeing a place about Seven Kings (after looking at google maps).

Seven Kings is in London, albeit some way out. Assuming there isn't more than one Seven Kings in southern England. (Which, together with the Queen, would make fifteen monarchs in total, and that seems rather too many).

[Rawhide]

You did the right thing by creating a new thread, the old ones were long dead (though I would have granted permission to resurrect the most recent one if you had found them and asked).

I've renamed the thread to fit the previous one. Here are the previous links if you're interested:
Europe and Russia in the Playground
Europe in the Playground!

[Gwynfrid]

Personally I think that everywhere in the world you have to be gentle for patients if you are a doctor. Also, the "local experience" apply also to engineering and IT positions - and source code / rules of engine working are always the same.

(But I can be wrong and perhaps IT/Engineering jobs are exception from the rule).

(And one more thing, considering the local experience - it's mean I should emigrate soon after my studies, huh? :-))

Like I said - regulations, cultural differences, reluctance by hiring managers to take risks, etc. explain the problem. It's a classic trope in Canada that so many of these skilled immigrants end up as taxi drivers. Government sees that as a problem and tries to help a little, because hey, the reason they wanted immigrants in the first place is a shortage of skilled labor! But it's not easy.

You might want to do part of your studies in Canada (if you can afford it). But, you know, I'm not really qualified to advise on immigration. In my own case, I was incredibly privileged: I found the job first, then the company hired lawyers to run 95% of the immigration process for me and hold my hand all the way. That, plus a nice little relocation package. I know it isn't like that for everybody, not anywhere close. And even if you get a lot of help, don't think immigration will be a walk in the park...

Anyway, if you want to consider it seriously, I recommend you do some real online research. The Canadian government has a pretty good Web site for that.

A Finn's "private bubble" resembles a castle. In trains a slot with three benches opposing each other is full when there are 3 people sitting there; nobody sits adjacent or opposite to a stranger (exaggeration with regards to rush hour trains of course). Same goes for busses and such. Of course, friends can sit next to each other and occupy the whole bench row. You know that "First Kiss"-video of strangers kissing that circulated the internet? Finnish version.

Of course, it's just an exaggerated stereotype, and such generalizations never apply to everybody in a country anyways, and I can say I have had some interesting discussions with strangers over my one and a half decades of regular use of mass transportation here; but I can still count those cases on one hand, and I'm quite extroverted. It's hard to approach Finns, and we prefer to be left alone. On the other hand Finns are incredibly polite, honest and so on (there was that one test of leaving wallets on the streets; 11/12 wallets were returned to the owner in Helsinki and I've lost my own wallet once and got it back and so on) to strangers so there are sides and sides.

Fun video! I remember one time way back, the company I worked for hired a few Finns and had them move to France. All of them had a hard time adapting; they were seen as difficult, even impossible to approach ("he/she doesn't smile much" was a typical comment), didn't find the French easy to work with, and didn't succeed much with learning the language. I was a bit sad really, because we didn't find a way to help these poor folks. I can see how the differing expectations of privacy play a role. Sure the stereotype is exaggerated, but there is a basis in reality.

@Migrating to Canada...
So if I avoid Quebec and New Brunswick I won't need to speak french, right?

No, just Quebec. And even there, I wouldn't say you have to speak French. It just is harder without it.

From my experience of both Britain/England and France, though, the capital and its population are almost completely non-representative of the rest of the country. Resentment of London in the rest of the UK, and of Paris in France, is pretty high, for sucking up all the government's attention, for turning other towns and cities into dormitories, and because the people are generally seen as rude and unhelpful. I think a lot of the negative stereotypes tourists hold about France are really Parisian stereotypes... and although I'm less familiar with tourist stereotypes of the UK, I wouldn't be surprised if it were the same here.

Very, very true. The capital / biggest city tends to concentrate a country's bad habits. Also, it is a stressful place, so people are always in a rush and not at their best social skills. This is common, not just in France and the UK: In the US, people resent New York, and in Canada they resent Toronto, big time. I wouldn't be surprised to find the same symptoms in other countries.

[banjo1985]

Plucky Brit reporting in to folks across the channel. There aren't a great many good things I can say about my country of birth, except that it's reassuringly small. At least that means I can visit the good bits relatively easily, and travel through the bad bits quickly. I only speak English, with very minimal French and a smattering of Mandarin Chinese. We tend to be pretty poor at other languages here, I think out of laziness. We kind of expect everyone to understand English, and get huffy when they don't.

Been to a couple of other European countries, and liked them all:

Reykjavik, Iceland - Tiny and mad, in a good way. I love the backdrops and the volcanoes...probably because I don't live there 24/7.

Dubrovnik, Croatia - Best place I've ever been, love the old city and the coastline in general. Everything closed really early though, which confused me enormously.

Paris, France - Expensive! Always busy, and everything stays open forever, which is good. Everyone seems to operate on a slightly different body clock, not coming out until mid afternoon, and going through to the early hours. Very few French people, or so it seemed to me, mostly quite rude tourists. I'm aware enough to include myself in that assessment though.

[Kaworu]

You did the right thing by creating a new thread, the old ones were long dead (though I would have granted permission to resurrect the most recent one if you had found them and asked).

I've renamed the thread to fit the previous one. Here are the previous links if you're interested:
Europe and Russia in the Playground
Europe in the Playground!

OK, thanks for the links, I will edit my first post and copy them there.

Concerning big cities:

In Poland, Warsaw is the biggest city. We have a hell lot stereotypes about Warsaw people, especially as drivers. They drive mad and do not care about other drivers.

So yes, I assume every biggest city has a bad reputation.

Less geographically, more socially: what is your favorite RPG system and why? :D :D :D

[Aedilred]

Less geographically, more socially: what is your favorite RPG system and why? :D :D :D

Oh dear, now you've done it.

I have a slightly wary affection for D&D 3x and AD&D2; I'm also fond of Traveller, though I've not played it much. Likewise Duty and Honour/Beat to Quarters. My favourite RPG is probably WFRP2, mostly for the setting - the system is ok but buggy and needs some serious - if straightforward - modding. Also, WFRP is "the British RPG" and given the thread I feel obliged to stick up for it. Not like those Americans with their Deviants and Decadents or whatever that game is.

[Maelstrom]

Wow, nice to have you there :-D Do you speak Norwegian? (I assume you speak French :-P)

At the moment, very very little...hoping to study it a bit before a trip up there. And yes, I speak/read/write Frech.

As for fav RPG System , I have to agree with the above .. AD&D 2/3.x. Played a bit of Star wars, both the old d6 version and d20, Car wars, Gurps and the like...but have been out of gaming for some time now...

[Asta Kask]

Less geographically, more socially: what is your favorite RPG system and why? :D :D :D

GURPS - I can do anything I want with it.

ION: I'm really fascinated by the Finnish language - it's so different from Swedish in the way it's constructed. All the cases, the layering of suffixes...

[lio45]

@Migrating to Canada...
So if I avoid Quebec and New Brunswick I won't need to speak french, right?

You don't need French in (most of) New Brunswick... at least the parts of it that matter.

You unfortunately don't even need French to live in most parts of Montreal these days. (Although as a fresh arrival it will certainly be harder to get a job because your competition will be bilingual, so your resume will likely go straight to the shredder.)

[Don Julio Anejo]

I'm ethnically Russian, grew up in Ukraine, however I've been in North America (US & Canada) since I was 10. I barely understand Ukrainian, though I've still got perfectly fluent Russian, and I can speak passable French thanks to really awesome high school teachers.

Also, you don't need French in Canada at all, except for rural Quebec. Even Montreal or Quebec City, you can get by with just English, though you'll deal with a lot of dirty looks.

Hm, I always wondered about this "local experience". It is my impression that Canadians are a little bit "prejudiced"(???) against work experience from another countries. How do they explain this trait? Because, there is not big difference between being a doctor in Canada and for example Libia, right?

Actually, there's a huge difference between a doctor in Canada and in, say, Lybia. Why? Completely different medical terminology, overarching treatment philosophy, specific treatment plans, available/prescribed drugs, even professional slang. Even the human body, while functionally the same, has a lot of local variations (i.e. Asians are typically lactose intolerant, while Northern Europeans don't see life without milk and cheese, which can affect a lot of gastrological disorders/treatments).

A part of it is, of course protectionism. Doctors are considered an elite profession in the Anglophone world (Canada, US, UK, Australia) and generally command salaries of $150k or more, while in much of the rest of the first world (i.e. Germany or France), they're merely highly qualified specialists, but don't make more than an average engineer. As such, a lot of local professional associations simply don't want to see an influx of immigrants (many of whom are willing to work for relatively peanuts).

However, a lot of it is also the question of competence. It's extremely easy to obtain a medical diploma in countries such as Russia or China with liberal application of bribes to your university professors. Hell, there's even a popular Russian sitcom ("The Interns") where 2 out of 4 main characters (interns at a hospital) are basically useless at medicine, one passed school by being drinking buddies with his professors, or playing "but I'm married and have a wife to take care of" sympathy card during exams, the other passed because his mother is the chief of medicine at a major hospital. Quality of medical education also highly varies between top-end schools and random universities out in the middle of nowhere, whereas in the US a University of Alabama grad wouldn't be a much worse doctor than a Johns Hopkins or Columbia graduate.

So in general, it's a lot easier for Canada to put a blank prohibition on working here (the same applies to most engineers, tradesmen, lawyers and accountants), and anyone that wants to generally needs to pass a license confirmation exam (similar to a full licensing exam) and then repeat some school. Two family friends recently did this with medicine: one is a dentist that used to practice in Ukraine, another is a GP from Armenia. They had to repeat 2 years of medical/dental school. The GP also had to repeat his residency, though the dentist got her previous experience confirmed and could practice straight away after graduation. I also have a friend from Venezuela that's getting an engineering certificate (1-year program) simply to get a piece of paper saying he's qualified locally (he has a BEng from Caracas) and he's already getting job offers based on his previous experience.

[lio45]

Also, you don't need French in Canada at all, except for rural Quebec. Even Montreal or Quebec City, you can get by with just English, though you'll deal with a lot of dirty looks.

FYI, those two are very different animals. Quebec City is much closer to rural Quebec on this aspect (i.e. American tourists can manage to get service in their language) and totally unlike Montreal (or Gatineau/Ottawa) where you can actually work/shop/play/etc. in English easily.

[Eldan]

And there's more differences. My father has been a nurse for over 40 years. Switzerland has a lack of Doctors (educating them is expensive), so we import a lot of German ones. There's a lot of tension between those and Swiss employees. Why? Because hierarchical thinking is different. Germans are used to quite steep hierarchies compared to Switzerland. In Germany, the culture seems to be that the upper ranks don't mingle with those below them and certainly don't get friendly. It's quite hilarious to see German exchange students sputter when a University professor introduces himself by their first name, eat lunch with their students and tell them they don't need to see a secretary or anything to talk to them since their office is probably just open all day.
You get Doctors saying things like "Shut up, I'm the Doctor here!" to their nurses. Which gets the nurse replying "And I have 30 years of experience and in this hospital and an university education almost as long as yours and I'm telling you you need to threat this patient now so get your ass over here!"

And then you get into issues of patients being unable to talk to their Doctors and Nurses and vice versa. My father knows examples of patients having to try what's basically sign language on their nurses or older Alzheimer patients trying to speak standard German instead of Swiss German with their Doctors.