Junkyard Wars in the Playground II

[Kuulvheysoon]

I'm unclear on whether that means you ever regain your lost abilities, since nothing is explicitly stated about it. However, assuming you do, I don't know if the quoted text is referring to additional rebuilding to meet requirements prior to the first level of the PrC or meeting requirements in levels after the PrC. In any case, if it's legal it would take a lot of discussion with the DM. YMMV, but I've always found that sort of thing to cause headaches in Elegance (or, in this competition, Build Stability). I remember the high blood pressure I got trying to convince folks how a Savant could qualify for both Unseen Seer and Black Flame Zealot .

Hey, I agreed with your reading, man. Totally got your back.

You have to be very careful about which variants are chained. The example provided would not be legal, since Paladin of Freedom is a variant to the paladin base class while prestige paladin is only for use in games that don't allow the paladin base class.

Thus, while some variant chains may be allowed, this one does not follow RAW.

Most ACFs also only apply to specific levels, as well, so there's something else to keep an eye out for.

EDIT: It just occured to me, while reading the RKV: If you're neutral, what type of bonus is the Divine fury (Su) class feature? It says sacred if Good, and profane if Evil. Can you choose, if you're neutral?

[WhamBamSam]

EDIT: It just occured to me, while reading the RKV: If you're neutral, what type of bonus is the Divine fury (Su) class feature? It says sacred if Good, and profane if Evil. Can you choose, if you're neutral?

Divine Fury (Su): From 9th level on, you can directly channel Wee Jas’s divine energy into your martial strikes. As a free action, you can spend a turn or rebuke undead attempt to add a +4 sacred (or profane, if you are evil) bonus on your attack roll with one martial strike this turn. In addition to its normal effects, the strike deals an extra 1d10 points of damage.

Emphasis mine. It doesn't say anything about needing to be good for it to be sacred. It just says it's profane if you're evil. I think it just defaults to sacred if you're neutral.

[Jeff the Green]

So, are we allowed to submit more than one build? I've got two ideas written up; one considerably more powerful and one more unusual.

[NoACWarrior]

I actually had a much easier time (and more ideas) for Dwarven Defender than Shadowdancer.

And I'm actually having second thoughts about competing in this one. With RKV the power expectation is going to be somewhere just shy of "solo the entire monster manual simultaneously in a single round", and I'm not sure I can meet that. I'm also having trouble coming up with anything that I would score high in originality that doesn't gimp power dramatically. I'll stew on it for the next week or so, but I may end up sitting it out.

The issue is that if you end up at T1 you don't get any additional points in my book, and T2 is only 1 more point than T3. Going from T3 to T2 is really really hard if you don't have a sheer power - this means getting around the same spell advancement as a sorcerer or favored soul by 15th level or so, with the 20th level requiring level 9 spells.

This isn't about making the most powerful character, its about making the most original build which can properly perform in most situations and be useful.

[Vaz]

(Su) abilities generally require a standard action per the rules. So RAW Divine Impetus just straight up does not function. RAI was probably for it to be a free action, but some people like to limit it to 1/turn.

It's the only way to get an additional swift action in the game; the broken reading of infinite (Quick Draw+Nightstick) Swift Actions just ain't allowed by RAW anyway. Unless explicitly stated, (Su) are Standard actions. There's no RAW way of letting a swift action be used as a standard, so you can only do one swift action spell a turn. It does function, just not in the way CO wanted to misread it as.

The RAW answer is you can swap your Standard Action to grant you an additional Swift, Kazudo. I understand if you want to make it different to draw people in, but there you go!

[NoACWarrior]

It's the only way to get an additional swift action in the game; the broken reading of infinite (Quick Draw+Nightstick) Swift Actions just ain't allowed by RAW anyway. Unless explicitly stated, (Su) are Standard actions. There's no RAW way of letting a swift action be used as a standard, so you can only do one swift action spell a turn. It does function, just not in the way CO wanted to misread it as.

The RAW answer is you can swap your Standard Action to grant you an additional Swift, Kazudo. I understand if you want to make it different to draw people in, but there you go!

I personally don't think that the ability is that bad, there would be situations I'd trade a standard action for a swift action, especially when I'm saving my immediate action or want to double the effect of a swift action effect. That said, I'd like to see people use this effectively

[Ikeren]

While it's the part of the prestige class that gets the most attention because of the action-economy element of it, I'd like to remind people that the prestige class has a stack of other useful elements

[Jeff the Green]

While it's the part of the prestige class that gets the most attention because of the action-economy element of it, I'd like to remind people that the prestige class has a stack of other useful elements

Eh, it's really a 50/50 useful/useless ratio for the class abilities, really. Divine Recovery is cool (though it would be better if it were easier to enter as a swordsage), and Divine Impetus is superluminal awesomesauce, but Armored Stealth can be otherwise replicated and Divine Fury is too weak for when you get it to see much use.

Really the best part of the class is the progression of spells and maneuvers. 8/10 is pretty good (it allows 9ths, though it'd be difficult to manage in this competition) and you get access to three of the best disciplines. And Stone Dragon.

[Telonius]

Got a couple ideas ... should be interesting. Both kind of counter-intuitive. Hope this goes better than the last one for me!

[Joe the Rat]

Just out of curiosity, since it is irrelevant to this build.... is it possible to get a divine caster (to advance with RKV) that does not have Conjuration(Healing) spells? It just feels like the second required ingredient is almost... automatic.

It depends on how literally you mean divine without healing spells - as a class, or as an individual?
The trick is getting Heal-Free divine casting and Turn Undead.

[Telonius]

Yeah, as an individual, it's pretty trivial to qualify without healing - just be a Favored Soul and don't pick any Healing spells for your spells known.

[Jeff the Green]

Yeah, as an individual, it's pretty trivial to qualify without healing - just be a Favored Soul and don't pick any Healing spells for your spells known.

It's not hard to make a character that couldn't possibly get healing spells. Divine Crusader of a deity without the Healing domain plus Dread Necromancer. It'd have horrible stability and the power's iffy, but it's manageable.

[Vaz]

Why are we speculating? I've had one idea of mine mentioned already. I'd prefer not to "waste my time" of entering if the judges are just going to mark down for something people have mentioned in the lead up, Cheers.

Meanwhile back to the drawing board.

[OMG PONIES]

Why are we speculating? I've had one idea of mine mentioned already. I'd prefer not to "waste my time" of entering if the judges are just going to mark down for something people have mentioned in the lead up, Cheers.

Meanwhile back to the drawing board.

Agreed re: speculation, but am I reading something wrong? From what I can see, Conjuration (healing) spells aren't the forbidden ingredient; they're one of the required ones!

[dextercorvia]

Agreed re: speculation, but am I reading something wrong? From what I can see, Conjuration (healing) spells aren't the forbidden ingredient; they're one of the required ones!

But they were also talking about ways to get Turn/Rebuke which is required for one of the required ingredients.

[Kazudo]

Yeah. Speculation's bad. Kweet it.

In other news, I've already begun getting submissions, and yesterday my minion count went up by one!

[Kuulvheysoon]

I just need to fluff my entry, and it'll be done.

A pretty entertaining round, actually.

[Ikeren]

I realized a clever trick for my build after submitting, can I add an addendum?

Eh, it's really a 50/50 useful/useless ratio for the class abilities, really. Divine Recovery is cool (though it would be better if it were easier to enter as a swordsage), and Divine Impetus is superluminal awesomesauce, but Armored Stealth can be otherwise replicated and Divine Fury is too weak for when you get it to see much use.

Really the best part of the class is the progression of spells and maneuvers. 8/10 is pretty good (it allows 9ths, though it'd be difficult to manage in this competition) and you get access to three of the best disciplines. And Stone Dragon.

Divine Recovery has some utility (for when you really need something specific), and Divine Fury is an occasional bit of extra damage; nothing to snuff at.

But I was actually referring to chasis features; spell/maneuver progression, full BAB.

[WhamBamSam]

I realized a clever trick for my build after submitting, can I add an addendum?

You can probably just send in a revised version. I do it pretty much every round in Iron Chef.

[dysprosium]

Exactly. As long as the dish has not been revealed yet, it shouldn't be a problem. Just make sure you label the addendum/revision clearly. I had a couple in the last round of Zinc Saucier.

[Ikeren]

Yeah, I just sent in an addendum. It's hilarious.

[Kazudo]

Re: multiple submissions:
Yep. There's no limit to the number of submissions, however since they're posted individually and anonymously, posting builds too similar could wind up hurting you in originality, while dividing your attention amongst multiple projects could hurt the individual product's quality. However, if you don't have any trouble multitasking, go ahead!

Had a few questions submitted I feel I should address.
Re: Turning Attempts:
The same thing came up in Episode I concerning Sneak Attack: anything that says that it furthers Turning Attempts won't work unless you already HAVE turn undead or that specific thing grants some. This gets interesting when you talk about stacking levels, so I'll put it like I did back in episode one (which may, now that I think about it, have been in a PM):
Let's say you've got a Marrulurk Swashbuckler who then takes Daring Outlaw. He qualifies for the feat by nature of his race and levels in Swashbuckler, so it works. It stacks his X levels in Swashbuckler with his Y levels in Rogue. He has no levels in rogue. X+0=X, so he's considered an Xth level rogue for the purposes of determining sneak attack dice. In this case, it's how it works as well. These two are different circumstances, since in the first issue you're advancing a class feature you have to have first, and in the second issue you're stacking class levels which essentially grant you the class feature and advance it as though you advanced in the base class.

Re: Percentages:
When taking a template or using a race or game mechanic that has a percentage chance to grant certain racial features, class features, special attacks, or similar, choose the option that fits the build the best. For completion's sake, one should likely include (in an Adaptations section) how to compensate for rolling some of the other possibilities and how they'd affect the build.

Re: Revised Submissions:
As long as it's before the reveal, I'll gladly alter any entries as long as the submissions and revisions are formatted well. Afterwards, unless it's an error in formatting or content that was in the submission but, for some reason didn't make it into the posted entry, PM me and I'll either fix it or explain why the segment was omitted. Omission will only take place in the event of material that may break forum rules. Unintentional omission may happen. I'll keep it to a minimum, but I'm trying to cover all possible angles here.

This is an important thing concerning this: If an entry is judged down for what amounts to an entrant's negligence when formatting and fluffing an entry, they aren't bound by any form of rule to change their judging because of any disputes, and I am not bound by any form of rule to put forth disputes received of that nature. It hasn't been a problem in the previous one, but I feel like I just need to say something about this before too long.

[Ikeren]

I think the fluff thing adds basically nothing and slows down judging, but *shrug*. I doubt I'll convince anyone to change it, so I'll just keep submitting fluff, now that I know how much people care.

[Jeff the Green]

Gagh. I just finished a build and was about to submit it, but then realized that not only did it not have a focus on Conjuration (healing) spells, it couldn't even cast any.

Oh well. In retrospect the only real creativity in it was the base casting class; everything else was basically copy/paste from your average RKV and [redacted] builds.

[Kazudo]

I think the fluff thing adds basically nothing and slows down judging, but *shrug*. I doubt I'll convince anyone to change it, so I'll just keep submitting fluff, now that I know how much people care.

Excessive amounts of Fluff, while I judged (the once, mind) and read through all 50 someaught pages of ICOCitP are generally not liked. They do slow down judging. However, if we look at the builds purely mechanically, some decisions that create originality and a specific flair won't make sense without accompanying fluff.

When building a house, yes, you have to have a foundation, walls, and a roof, as well as a handful of rooms that all connect to keep the house from falling over and maintain its utility. However, as any architect knows, an accompanying explanation as to why you put the rooms where you did and what furnishings you may have had in mind when constructing the thing will help any prospective buyers better understand things. Like "Why go for a pedestal bathtub instead of a traditional ground-level?" or "Why are the windows spaced like that?" etc.

Now, there's a difference between "I put this room here because it's the master bedroom and it's closest to the largest bathroom and giant closet system" and "And pink tassles on the drapes to maximize the room's frilliness".

[Ikeren]

Do architects actually talk to house purchasers ?

Jokes about analogy's aside...I think you're describing the need for level snapshots and showcases, not fluff.

I guess I mean...would people find it harder to evaluate the value of builds if they looked more like Tempest Stormwinds recent and excellent Weekly Optimization Showcase? (http://community.wizards.com/content...-topic/3396411)

I mean, I don't care that much, and it's not that much a bother to submit fluff...I just think we're slowing things down an extra hint to no benefit. And I really like Tempest Stormwinds weekly optimization showcase.

[Jeff the Green]

I think it can be useful, at least. Some things have definite fluff a priori, and if you're combining them in an interesting way you need to either reconcile the existing fluff or create new fluff that fits the mechanics. I don't think there's a single realistic build you couldn't fluff, but it needs to exist and some builds need it laid out for the judges. For example, say you go from Anima Mage (requires nongood) to Paladin. It's viable, but you do need to explain the character's backstory and outlook to explain why this paladin is using these morally-suspect abilities or refluffed the abilities to be less morally-suspect to make it something you could actually play.

[WhamBamSam]

Judges are free to ignore fluff if they feel like it, but I personally like having it, and think it actually makes it easier to read through large numbers of builds in succession if I can alternate back and forth between story time and mechanical stuff rather than slogging through build after build of just crunch and nothing else.

Some of the fluff is certainly take it or leave it, but there's some really good stuff to be found as well. Some of the old IC entries' fluff was what got me to start lurking in the competition, which in turn was basically how I ended up learning optimization.

[Ikeren]

*shrug*. Fair enough. People like their fluff here.

[Kazudo]

If done right, it's the difference between "pretty fast car" and "really popular pretty fast car".

At any rate, I've gotten in some choice submissions, and we've only got *checks watch* 3 days(ish) left in the entrant stage before we go onto the judging stage!