Junkyard Wars in the Playground II

[PraxisVetli]

I'm so in!

[NoACWarrior]

Although I'd like to do this one, I simply don't have the time to review ToB (I just bought it). I'd like to judge though, and the extra time would give me enough time to review maneuvers and stances.

Regarding non-qualifying for PRCs... is that a new thing for ToB which allows you to semi qualify for a PrC then do a rebuild and still keep the PrC without having the prerequisites?

And speaking of which, with not having to qualify for RKV in order to keep the levels on a rebuild, are rebuilds allowed?

Something I was thinking about was 5 levels in paladin, then taking RKV and then rebuilding to a favored soul and getting turn / rebuke elsewhere.

[Kazudo]

Actually the only books that say that it's required for you to maintain the prerequisites or lose the class are in Complete Arcane and Complete Warrior. The rest don't have anything that say anything along those lines at all. Unless you can provide RAW that generalizes to all Prestige classes.

[NoACWarrior]

Actually the only books that say that it's required for you to maintain the prerequisites or lose the class are in Complete Arcane and Complete Warrior. The rest don't have anything that say anything along those lines at all. Unless you can provide RAW that generalizes to all Prestige classes.

How very neat!

Rebuild quests ftw then.

[Seerow]

Actually the only books that say that it's required for you to maintain the prerequisites or lose the class are in Complete Arcane and Complete Warrior. The rest don't have anything that say anything along those lines at all. Unless you can provide RAW that generalizes to all Prestige classes.

Huh.

If that's the ruling the competition is going with, this just got much more interesting. I've always seen it used that the referenced rule is applied universally, but I'm not going to argue the point.

[Kazudo]

I had typically done the same. I would consider Retraining and Rebuilds and such as "associated material" or "additional notes", since relying on it for a build may not be PARTICULARLY stable. A build that has a 5 in originality, power, and UoSI with a 1 in Build Stability will place higher than a build which scores a 3 in all fields.

[Ikeren]

Table code has gone funny in first post.

[PraxisVetli]

I'm hoping this goes better than my Iron Chef.
This seems more up my ally though.

[WhamBamSam]

I've... got a hilariously bad idea for this. If nothing else it'll get me "What the hell was he smoking?" points.

I wonder if we're doing something similar. I've got a rough draft of a build stubbed out on scratch paper which is clearly the product of a diseased mind.

I have second idea as well, which is more stable, but less interesting. It's finals time though, and I would kind of like to graduate, so that one may not end up being submitted.

[NoACWarrior]

I've... got a hilariously bad idea for this. If nothing else it'll get me "What the hell was he smoking?" points.

This is precisely why I'll be judging this round as well and not participating. I just can't get over the crazy stuff I might do which is going to look cool but be mechanically bad. On the other note, I couldn't figure out how to end up with dual casting with access to 8-9th level spells, with infinite turning, and using maneuvers.

And before anyone else says its possible, if you think it is just submit a build instead
And please don't speculate how to do what I wanted to do, build speculation isn't allowed here

[Ikeren]

with infinite turning,

Once the competition is complete, I'd like an explanation of this, unless it's just traditional infinite stat tricks.

[OMG PONIES]

Although I'd like to do this one, I simply don't have the time to review ToB (I just bought it). I'd like to judge though, and the extra time would give me enough time to review maneuvers and stances.

Are you saying you don't have time to review the source that you'll be judging us on, or that you don't have time to review it by the cooking deadline but you do have time to review it by the judging deadline? The latter makes sense, but the former seems a bit iffy.

Regarding non-qualifying for PRCs... is that a new thing for ToB which allows you to semi qualify for a PrC then do a rebuild and still keep the PrC without having the prerequisites?

And speaking of which, with not having to qualify for RKV in order to keep the levels on a rebuild, are rebuilds allowed?

Something I was thinking about was 5 levels in paladin, then taking RKV and then rebuilding to a favored soul and getting turn / rebuke elsewhere.

Actually the only books that say that it's required for you to maintain the prerequisites or lose the class are in Complete Arcane and Complete Warrior. The rest don't have anything that say anything along those lines at all. Unless you can provide RAW that generalizes to all Prestige classes.

You rang?

If reallocating your character's class levels disqualifies him for a prestige class in which he already has one or more levels, he loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by that prestige class. He retains the hit points gained from advancing in that class, as well as any improvements to base attack bonus and base save bonuses that those levels provided. However, you can always use the class level rebuilding option to replace the now-useless prestige class levels as well--and you probably should, unless you're sure that the character will be able to meet the requirements again soon.

So rebuilding cannot be used to wrangle yourself out of PrC prerequisites while keeping PrC abilities.

[Kazudo]

And there it is! PONIES to the rescue!

...However, that only covers the one method.

[NoACWarrior]

Are you saying you don't have time to review the source that you'll be judging us on, or that you don't have time to review it by the cooking deadline but you do have time to review it by the judging deadline? The latter makes sense, but the former seems a bit iffy.

You rang?

So rebuilding cannot be used to wrangle yourself out of PrC prerequisites while keeping PrC abilities.

The second. I can review the general mechanics in time, but figuring out cool combos and the like isn't something I have time for. If I try to read the passages for the ability descriptions I'll end up getting stuck on just the abilities and compulsively try to find combos.

The question I have about rebuilding is that when you still meet the prerequisites a rebuilt is valid right?
But the progression of abilities through a rebuilt is unimportant as its not the same as leveling / building a character, thus you can drop turn/rebuke/channel in your first 3 levels, picking up something else, and pick up turn/rebuke/channel in levels after the PrC.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I actually have a couple of extremely... out of the box... ideas. In fact, I may well end up using [REDACTED], which should be quite the surprise. The other is less surprising and more 'wut'.

Time to pull out my [SPLATBOOK] and see if I can't get this thing going.

[Jeff the Green]

Is the RKV variant that doesn't worship Wee Jas allowed? I have a couple ideas but at least one would require worshipping a different deity.

[Kazudo]

I am going to go with the "fluff is mutable" answer there. You can use the RKV variant that doesn't worship Wee Jas.

[NoACWarrior]

I personally think that Wee Jas is a nice idea for RP given the sources for turn / rebuke / channel.
Otherwise, having Wee Jas is kinda meh other than an author's note which gives her the pride domain for clerics (though clerics are a banned ingredient here)

[Ikeren]

I am going to go with the "fluff is mutable" answer there. You can use the RKV variant that doesn't worship Wee Jas.

Wee Jas dangnabbit!

I just came up with a clever build that used obscure items from everywhere to make the worshipping Wee Jas thing work.

[Ikeren]

And submitted. Now to work on a Dwarven Defender!

[vhfforever]

I may have something for this one...it may bomb completely, but hopefully it's out of the box enough to merit some raised eyebrows.

[dysprosium]

Consider me a participant in one way or the other.

It will probably boil down to if I get to submit for Iron Chef I will judge Junkyard and vice versa.

[Somensjev]

i might try to participate, depends on whether or not i can make an entry

don't expect too much

[sakuuya]

And submitted. Now to work on a Dwarven Defender!

That was probably a smart order to tackle these in. I'm bogged down in Dwarven Defender right now (I can't believe I thought Shadowdancer was a terrible class!), which'll probably lead to another last-minute submission here. My lofty goal is to get a build in a full half hour before this closes.

[Seerow]

That was probably a smart order to tackle these in. I'm bogged down in Dwarven Defender right now (I can't believe I thought Shadowdancer was a terrible class!), which'll probably lead to another last-minute submission here. My lofty goal is to get a build in a full half hour before this closes.

I actually had a much easier time (and more ideas) for Dwarven Defender than Shadowdancer.

And I'm actually having second thoughts about competing in this one. With RKV the power expectation is going to be somewhere just shy of "solo the entire monster manual simultaneously in a single round", and I'm not sure I can meet that. I'm also having trouble coming up with anything that I would score high in originality that doesn't gimp power dramatically. I'll stew on it for the next week or so, but I may end up sitting it out.

[sakuuya]

I actually had a much easier time (and more ideas) for Dwarven Defender than Shadowdancer.

And I'm actually having second thoughts about competing in this one. With RKV the power expectation is going to be somewhere just shy of "solo the entire monster manual simultaneously in a single round", and I'm not sure I can meet that. I'm also having trouble coming up with anything that I would score high in originality that doesn't gimp power dramatically. I'll stew on it for the next week or so, but I may end up sitting it out.

If you don't compete, be a judge with lower power expectations!

...I'm definitely not suggesting this just because I have the same power/originality concerns you do. Nooo.

[Ikeren]

In the end, my intuitive idea for Dwarven Defender seems better and cleaner than my intuitive idea for Shadowdancer did, but in each of these competitions I've just built the first thing that came to my head, looked up appropriate things and tweaked as necessary.

Though it did take some 4 hours to do my feats...

[Xerlith]

This... Is a subtle question - Is chaining variants from Unearthed Arcana considered legal? I mean, for example, Prestige Paladin of Freedom. If so, if there was (still example only!) a Prestige Paladin of Freedom who traded his Mount for Charging Smite legal?

[Seerow]

This... Is a subtle question - Is chaining variants from Unearthed Arcana considered legal? I mean, for example, Prestige Paladin of Freedom. If so, if there was (still example only!) a Prestige Paladin of Freedom who traded his Mount for Charging Smite legal?

I don't see any reason why not, as long as you're still a Paladin and still trading the special mount (read: Whatever variant you actually plan on using doesn't remove/replace the feature you're trading for the second ACF).

[OMG PONIES]

And there it is! PONIES to the rescue!

...However, that only covers the one method.

Right, rebuilding was the only method under discussion, wasn't it?

The second. I can review the general mechanics in time, but figuring out cool combos and the like isn't something I have time for. If I try to read the passages for the ability descriptions I'll end up getting stuck on just the abilities and compulsively try to find combos.

Ah, cool, makes sense then.

The question I have about rebuilding is that when you still meet the prerequisites a rebuilt is valid right?
But the progression of abilities through a rebuilt is unimportant as its not the same as leveling / building a character, thus you can drop turn/rebuke/channel in your first 3 levels, picking up something else, and pick up turn/rebuke/channel in levels after the PrC.

I think that part is up to the individual DM/judge. The text on rebuilding never mentions anything about regaining lost class features, but it does say

...you can always use the class level rebuilding option to replace the now-useless prestige class levels as well--and you probably should, unless you're sure that the character will be able to meet the requirements again soon.

I'm unclear on whether that means you ever regain your lost abilities, since nothing is explicitly stated about it. However, assuming you do, I don't know if the quoted text is referring to additional rebuilding to meet requirements prior to the first level of the PrC or meeting requirements in levels after the PrC. In any case, if it's legal it would take a lot of discussion with the DM. YMMV, but I've always found that sort of thing to cause headaches in Elegance (or, in this competition, Build Stability). I remember the high blood pressure I got trying to convince folks how a Savant could qualify for both Unseen Seer and Black Flame Zealot .

This... Is a subtle question - Is chaining variants from Unearthed Arcana considered legal? I mean, for example, Prestige Paladin of Freedom. If so, if there was (still example only!) a Prestige Paladin of Freedom who traded his Mount for Charging Smite legal?

You have to be very careful about which variants are chained. The example provided would not be legal, since Paladin of Freedom is a variant to the paladin base class while prestige paladin is only for use in games that don't allow the paladin base class.

These paladin variants aren't meant to be unique classes in and of themselves, but rather alignment-based variations of the paladin. They have the same Hit Die, skill points per level, weapon and armor proficiencies, and spells per day as the standard paladin. Their class skill lists are nearly identical, with exceptions noted below. Their spellcasting functions identically to that of the standard paladin (though their spell lists are somewhat different). When a class feature has the same name as a paladin class feature, it functions the same as the one described for the standard paladin.

If you use any of the variant classes presented here, the standard version of the class should be unavailable. For instance, you shouldn't include both the standard paladin character class and the paladin prestige class in the same game.

Thus, while some variant chains may be allowed, this one does not follow RAW.