Was Miko treated unfairly by the narrative?

[Keltest]

Even in a Lawful society, replacing a feudal lord on competence grounds was harder than it would be today. It falls under "not done" territory. I suspect that Hinjo could have done it with the backing of the generals or other nobles, but no one outside the direct succession.

Furthering that point, while Shojo was outwardly senile, we have little reason to believe that his apparent senility extended to how he governed the city. The word eccentric might apply better to how he acted.

[Bulldog Psion]

Treated unfairly? Yes, kind of. But you can't have a "tragic fall" story without that happening. So, yes, she was treated unfairly, but she had to be. And the story wouldn't have been as interesting if she hadn't.

[UsaSatsui]

It's a Smite. By definition it's supposed to be MORE lethal to the things you use it on than whatever else you choose.

Or just do more damage. Again, I see nothing that says you can't smite with a nonlethal attack.

Dude, sarcasm. Seriously, the ":P" wasn't enough to give that away?

Apparently not.

Still, it was pretty clear that, by all appearances, Shojo was unfit for duty. To everyone in Azure City, he seemed pretty clearly insane. I would imagine the only reason that he didn't get replaced is that the nobles found that having an insane ruler made it easier for them to carry on with their schemes and that a more rational person might put a stop to their plotting.

He wasn't insane, just a bit senile. Why would the nobles want to replace him, when all he needs is the proper "guidance"?

There's no reason at all to remove Shojo, particularly when the replacement waiting in line is the far more competent and less manipulable Hinjo (at least by appearances)?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Furthering that point, while Shojo was outwardly senile, we have little reason to believe that his apparent senility extended to how he governed the city. The word eccentric might apply better to how he acted.

I doubt he would have been all that much better at government. If someone noticed the discrepancy between how he acted in public and how well he was able to govern I don't think his facade would have lasted very long. And it was more than just eccentricity, since Hinjo described it as a "mental affliction". He was probably only an okay ruler, or at least not one bad enough to be removed.

[Kish]

It occurs to me that it is, at best, problematic for any members of an order of paladins to take orders from a source they do not consider sane.

Never mind the fact that it was Miko, never mind the fact that to what extent she did not obey the orders she disobeyed them to be harsher than ordered, never mind the fact that Shojo was (unknown to all the paladins) faking it: the fact that the members of the Sapphire Guard were willing to go to another country and in any way bother people who had never heard of them on the orders of a nonsapient housecat was indicative of something deeply wrong with the Sapphire Guard. Shojo's deception should have resulted in the Sapphire Guard effectively ceasing to pay any attention whatsoever to his orders, as soon as it became "clear" to them that he was insane.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

He wasn't insane, just a bit senile. Why would the nobles want to replace him, when all he needs is the proper "guidance"?

There's no reason at all to remove Shojo, particularly when the replacement waiting in line is the far more competent and less manipulable Hinjo (at least by appearances)?

That's pretty much what I said.

having an insane ruler made it easier for them to carry on with their schemes and that a more rational person might put a stop to their plotting.

Also, mental senility or dementia can be described as insane, so saying he wasn't insane, just a little insane doesn't make much sense.

[David Argall]

can we please stop pretending that Miko had orders from Shojo not to kill the Order? Those orders quite explicitly came from Mr. Scruffy, whom Miko has sworn no oaths to obey :P

While the reason is invalid, the point is correct. Miko did not have orders not to kill the order. She merely had order to try not to, which, when given to the cop on the scene who can't be supervised, is pretty much meaningless. The cop has to make the call and is not restricted by orders that essentially say "use your best judgement."
Any fault here belongs to Shojo, who knew of Miko's ways and still sent her on the mission. Nor was there any hurry or need as far as he knew. X might have stayed inactive for a decade or more. He was the one who framed them as criminal. Since he sent paladins to investigate the destruction of the previous gate, he could also send them to investigate this destruction, and/or to gather witnesses such as the Order. It would have been inconvenient to his plans possibly, but as it was, he pretty much set them up.
But Miko has been thru this probably several times before. She has been told to go arrest Jones, and when she reported back that Jones had resisted arrest and was then killed, she was told to go and arrest Smith. [Not text of course, but do you see anything in text that makes you doubt this is what happened?] She had solid reason to deem words about "try hard to bring them in alive" to be close to meaningless and the efforts she made with the order fully satisfied her orders.

[theNater]

Okay, first things first. There seems to be a lot of confusion about Miko's obligation here, so let's check the source.

Shojo: Mr. Scruffy says that you should try hard to bring them back alive for trial.
Miko: As your cat wishes, Master, if it is possible.

She has agreed to the orders, so she is obligated to obey. But the orders are not to bring them back alive at all costs. They are to try hard to bring them back alive. These orders absolutely include the leeway to kill some or all of them, if it turns out that bringing them back alive is not realistically feasible.

My point is that Miko was in the wrong to attack them. Whether it results from disobedience (which, even if she assumes that the Order could identify her, is still occuring), is not the main point.

It may not be important to you, but intentional disobedience vs. gross incompetence is a difference that will determine whether she falls in veti's campaign, so it's well worth considering. If you and I can agree that incompetence is at least a plausible reason for her screw up, then we don't have to hash out whether it was the actual reason or not, if you don't want to.

It occurs to me that it is, at best, problematic for any members of an order of paladins to take orders from a source they do not consider sane.

For a Lawful person, there's some value in supporting the command structure for its own sake. As long as his orders aren't hurting anything, that perceived benefit can outweigh a pretty good amount of embarrassment or inconvenience.

EDIT:

But Miko has been thru this probably several times before. She has been told to go arrest Jones, and when she reported back that Jones had resisted arrest and was then killed, she was told to go and arrest Smith. [Not text of course, but do you see anything in text that makes you doubt this is what happened?]

Yes. The fact that she jumped straight to "my blades will be bathed in the blood of those responsible" rather than something more like "alive or dead?" suggests she doesn't get told to bring them in alive often, if at all.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

But she didn't try very hard. Of the course of a round, she jumped from surrender to attack. Her attempts at diplomacy were non-existent and she didn't even try to subdue Roy.

I will agree with David Argall that Shojo should have made better efforts when framing his orders so that Miko would not have the leeway that she interpreted in his statement and that he probably shouldn't have sent her out. However, fault still falls on Miko for assuming that this situation would be identical to all others and, as I said before, for not even trying to follow Shojo's wishes. Also, the fault falls on Miko, in this hypothetical situation, for being so willing to kill those resisting arrest. The commands of her superiors shouldn't be the only things restraining her.

[UsaSatsui]

Also, mental senility or dementia can be described as insane, so saying he wasn't insane, just a little insane doesn't make much sense.

Simply having a mental illness does not make you "insane". There is no actual medical definition of the term, it's a legal term, and it means your mental state is at a point where you can't function in society or tell right from wrong. Shojo, assuming he actually was senile, is not even close to that point. Maybe he couldn't be the most effective ruler, but hey, those are the breaks in a society with hereditary rule.

Any fault here belongs to Shojo, who knew of Miko's ways and still sent her on the mission. Nor was there any hurry or need as far as he knew.

This is a very good point. It is semi-justified in that Miko is likely the only Sapphire Guard member who is an effective tracker, and it's made pretty clear that she gets chosen for field missions frequently because she's kind of a pain in the ass. But Shojo absolutely knew about Miko's over-zealousness and it doesn't take much to conclude that Miko would try to kill the people he really, really needed to bring in (or even that they might kill her). This was probably a two-Paladin job, and honestly, by sending a second Paladin to assist, maybe all this could have been avoided.

[Koo Rehtorb]

She had no indication from Shojo that the people she was after were anything other than ruthless terrorists.
She had multiple witnesses accounts of various atrocities that the people she was after had committed recently.
She even had Detect Evil confirmation that the leader was strongly evil aligned.

The existence of extremely bad luck does not imply that she did not take reasonable precautions to determine guilt.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Simply having a mental illness does not make you "insane". There is no actual medical definition of the term, it's a legal term, and it means your mental state is at a point where you can't function in society or tell right from wrong. Shojo, assuming he actually was senile, is not even close to that point. Maybe he couldn't be the most effective ruler, but hey, those are the breaks in a society with hereditary rule.

I would say that Shojo would have difficulty functioning in society if he actually was like how he pretended to be. However, I will concede that calling him insane is a little extreme. Your last point I agree with.

Edit:

She had no indication from Shojo that the people she was after were anything other than ruthless terrorists.
She had multiple witnesses accounts of various atrocities that the people she was after had committed recently.
She even had Detect Evil confirmation that the leader was strongly evil aligned.

The existence of extremely bad luck does not imply that she did not take reasonable precautions to determine guilt.

And I say that those precautions were not enough. First, Shojo did no such thing. All he told Miko was the Redmountain Gate had been destroyed and that Miko knew what needed to be done (she didn't apparently, given Shojo's look of surprise, but that's besides the point. Shojo should have definitely been more specific here, but he didn't cal the Order "ruthless terrorists"). Then, when Miko was collecting witnesses, she never bothered to see the Order's side of the story or to confirm those witnesses*. Finally, the Detect Evil spell, as shown, is not the best way to determine the guilt of someone.

*I'd like to point out how Miko continues to state that Shojo ordered the Order's execution, despite him having done no such thing.

[orrion]

While the reason is invalid, the point is correct. Miko did not have orders not to kill the order. She merely had order to try not to, which, when given to the cop on the scene who can't be supervised, is pretty much meaningless. The cop has to make the call and is not restricted by orders that essentially say "use your best judgement."

Ok, but she didn't "try not to" at all. Even when Roy stopped actively fighting her and the rest of the Order was subdued, she still decided to go for the kill.

Any fault here belongs to Shojo, who knew of Miko's ways and still sent her on the mission. Nor was there any hurry or need as far as he knew. X might have stayed inactive for a decade or more. He was the one who framed them as criminal. Since he sent paladins to investigate the destruction of the previous gate, he could also send them to investigate this destruction, and/or to gather witnesses such as the Order. It would have been inconvenient to his plans possibly, but as it was, he pretty much set them up.

What do you mean there was no hurry or need? Shojo knew 2 of the 5 gates holding a world-eating and god-killing monstrosity (as far as he knew) were down. Of course there was reason to hurry.

[UsaSatsui]

I would say that Shojo would have difficulty functioning in society if he actually was like how he pretended to be. However, I will concede that calling him insane is a little extreme. Your last point I agree with.

He thought his cat was talking to him, and he occasionally took political advice from it. That's about the only outward sign of dementia he shows. And it's harmless. A little embarrassing to the state, maybe, but harmless.

It's not really about the delusion, it's about the behavior. "Mr. Scruffy thinks these people should have a fair trial" is very different from "Mr. Scruffy thinks we should develop nuclear weapons and use them on our enemies". One's quirky, the other is a serious problem.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

He thought his cat was talking to him, and he occasionally took political advice from it. That's about the only outward sign of dementia he shows. And it's harmless. A little embarrassing to the state, maybe, but harmless.

It's not really about the delusion, it's about the behavior. "Mr. Scruffy thinks these people should have a fair trial" is very different from "Mr. Scruffy thinks we should develop nuclear weapons and use them on our enemies". One's quirky, the other is a serious problem.

Fair enough. I can agree with that.

[theNater]

Miko did not have orders not to kill the order. She merely had order to try not to...

Ooh, that's subtle; so subtle I missed it the first time around.

Miko was not directed to try not to kill the Order. She was directed to try to bring them back alive. In reality, that's the same thing, but in a world where Raise Dead exists, it's not.

But she didn't try very hard. Of the course of a round, she jumped from surrender to attack. Her attempts at diplomacy were non-existent and she didn't even try to subdue Roy.

It's true that by any objective measure, her attempts to take them peacefully were laughably feeble. But given her social and psychological shortcomings, they may have been the best she could do.

As for subduing Roy, attacking someone until their HP are in negative numbers is one of the traditional ways of subduing people in D&D. Note that beating him into unconsciousness is more feasible for Miko than for most characters, because she can heal him a bit to keep him from bleeding to death.

She even had Detect Evil confirmation that the leader was strongly evil aligned.

I just want to clarify for those who may not be familiar with D&D rules: a creature which reads as strongly Evil is either extremely high level(like, near Xykon's level) or bolstered by supernatural powers. Creatures which give off such a reading may be much more dangerous than they otherwise appear.

Note that Xykon himself would give off an even greater reading, due to being both high level and bolstered by supernatural powers.

[orrion]

Ooh, that's subtle; so subtle I missed it the first time around.

Miko was not directed to try not to kill the Order. She was directed to try to bring them back alive. In reality, that's the same thing, but in a world where Raise Dead exists, it's not.

It's true that by any objective measure, her attempts to take them peacefully were laughably feeble. But given her social and psychological shortcomings, they may have been the best she could do.

As for subduing Roy, attacking someone until their HP are in negative numbers is one of the traditional ways of subduing people in D&D. Note that beating him into unconsciousness is more feasible for Miko than for most characters, because she can heal him a bit to keep him from bleeding to death.

I just want to clarify for those who may not be familiar with D&D rules: a creature which reads as strongly Evil is either extremely high level(like, near Xykon's level) or bolstered by supernatural powers. Creatures which give off such a reading may be much more dangerous than they otherwise appear.

Note that Xykon himself would give off an even greater reading, due to being both high level and bolstered by supernatural powers.

Ok, but even if Roy tested "strongly evil," Miko scanned Roy, Durkon, and Elan. Roy shows Evil (presumably Lawful), Durkon shows Lawful Good, and Elan shows Chaotic Good. More information required is what I would have thought.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It's true that by any objective measure, her attempts to take them peacefully were laughably feeble. But given her social and psychological shortcomings, they may have been the best she could do.

Well then, I would say that being unable to make any sort if diplomatic attempts is another large flaw of Miko's. She still didn't seem to try very hard, regardless of whether that was a result of how little she cared to follow commands or how little she was able.

As for subduing Roy, attacking someone until their HP are in negative numbers is one of the traditional ways of subduing people in D&D. Note that beating him into unconsciousness is more feasible for Miko than for most characters, because she can heal him a bit to keep him from bleeding to death.

She was most assuredly not trying to subdue. Her intent was to kill, as expressed by her saying "Die, evildoer!!" and "I execute you for crimes against existence!". I doubt she would have tried to Resurrect* him either, as that wouldn't make this much of an execution.

*Paladins cannot cast Raise Dead or the like, and given their distance from any Clerics at this point it is unlikely they would find any in time to cast it. I would like to point out that coming back from the dead is hardly costless, since (for resurrection) you lose a level, plus the 10,000gp of diamonds lost by the caster. Also, there is no guarantee that all of the Order (especially Belkar) would want to come back to face justice, like Shojo.

[Squark]

Ok, but even if Roy tested "strongly evil," Miko scanned Roy, Durkon, and Elan. Roy shows Evil (presumably Lawful), Durkon shows Lawful Good, and Elan shows Chaotic Good. More information required is what I would have thought.

No, Detect Evil only detects, well, evil. You'd need Detect good to know that half (2-thirds when the crown wasn't on Roy) of the Order is Good. Miko made the not unreasonable assumption that Durkon and Elan were Roy's unscrupulous but not evil accomplices. considering Miko didn't know which member of the order destroyed the gate, she probably assumed Roy was the culprit.

Granted, "One person pinged 'Evil' on my radar!" isn't reason enough to attack, but, then again, that's one of Miko's biggest problems- She's too quick to jump to conclusions.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

No, Detect Evil only detects, well, evil. You'd need Detect good to know that half (2-thirds when the crown wasn't on Roy) of the Order is Good. Miko made the not unreasonable assumption that Durkon and Elan were Roy's unscrupulous but not evil accomplices.

Granted, "One person pinged 'Evil' on my radar!" isn't reason enough to attack, but, then again, that's one of Miko's biggest problems- She's too quick to jump to conclusions.

Yes, this is the main thing that I don't like about Miko's use of detect evil: she used it to jump to the conclusion that everyone on the Order was evil or at least working with evil without trying to make certain this was true. Plus the jumping to conclusions thing.

[theNater]

Ok, but even if Roy tested "strongly evil," Miko scanned Roy, Durkon, and Elan. Roy shows Evil (presumably Lawful), Durkon shows Lawful Good, and Elan shows Chaotic Good. More information required is what I would have thought.

Detect Evil is not Know Alignment. It does not reveal the target's position on the Law-Chaos axis, and it does not distinguish between Neutral and Good on the Good-Evil axis.

Well then, I would say that being unable to make any sort if diplomatic attempts is another large flaw of Miko's.

Yes it is.

She still didn't seem to try very hard, regardless of whether that was a result of how little she cared to follow commands or how little she was able.

Again, we don't have to argue about the whys if you don't want to. You seem to be alternating between not caring as to the whys and wanting to prove it's not because she was unable, which is confusing me.

She was most assuredly not trying to subdue. Her intent was to kill, as expressed by her saying "Die, evildoer!!" and "I execute you for crimes against existence!".

Indeed. She may have concluded he is too dangerous to be taken alive, given how far she'd have to drag him.

I doubt she would have tried to Resurrect* him either, as that wouldn't make this much of an execution.

It is not clear how final an execution has to be, in a world with resurrection. We can't conclude that she must intend his death to be permanent.

Paladins cannot cast Raise Dead or the like, and given their distance from any Clerics at this point it is unlikely they would find any in time to cast it.

The town they left on the way to the forest had a temple to Freya in it. The gentleman manning it is probably a Cleric. Azure City also has clerics who can cast Resurrection, which can work on someone who's been dead for years.

I would like to point out that coming back from the dead is hardly costless, since (for resurrection) you lose a level, plus the 10,000gp of diamonds lost by the caster.

So? She isn't even encouraged to bring them back with all their class levels, or unharmed, or anything. She would presumably pay for the diamonds out of her stipend(or loot confiscated from Roy's corpse).

Also, there is no guarantee that all of the Order (especially Belkar) would want to come back to face justice, like Shojo.

Firstly, you've jumped from "she tried to kill Roy" to "she would obviously kill every member of the Order", and secondly you've forgotten Xykon's "anything to avoid the big fire below" speech. Shojo, of course, was not at any risk of the big fire below, as he was Good.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Indeed. She may have concluded he is too dangerous to be taken alive, given how far she'd have to drag him.

This had nothing to do with how she wanted to capture him. She was explicitly executing him.

It is not clear how final an execution has to be, in a world with resurrection. We can't conclude that she must intend his death to be permanent.

I don't see why she would execute him only to resurrect him to possibly execute him again.

The town they left on the way to the forest had a temple to Freya in it. The gentleman manning it is probably a Cleric. Azure City also has clerics who can cast Resurrection, which can work on someone who's been dead for years.

The town was far away enough at this point that it might as well be Azure City that they travel to.

So? She isn't even encouraged to bring them back with all their class levels, or unharmed, or anything. She would presumably pay for the diamonds out of her stipend(or loot confiscated from Roy's corpse).

Roy wouldn't have 10,000gp of diamonds on him, which is a theoretically high price. It is certainly one that Miko couldn't pay of she could barely afford that inn. My point is that even in this world where Raise Dead exists, there are still costs to killing your prisoners and then raising them.

Firstly, you've jumped from "she tried to kill Roy" to "she would obviously kill every member of the Order", and secondly you've forgotten Xykon's "anything to avoid the big fire below" speech. Shojo, of course, was not at any risk of the big fire below, as he was Good.

I don't see why she would stop at Roy. At the very least, she would presumably move onto Belkar, yet another evildoer. Are you trying to say that Belkar has the same knowledge and goals as Xykon?

Edit: My overall goal in this part of the discussion is to show that Milo messed up in her first confrontation with the Order.

[Gnoman]

Let's put Miko's actions in a more familiar context.

Chief: An important installation was destroyed, this is who we think did it. Take care of it.

Cop: I'll kill them all.

Chief: No, bring them in for trial.

Cop: As you wish.


Cop: I'm looking for this group.

Witness: They're over there.

Cop: DEAD OR ALIVE YOU ARE COMING WITH ME

Party: What? Who are you, and what are you talking about? I have no reason to go with you.

Cop: YOU HAVE CHOSEN "DEAD".

Such a reasonable way to deal with the situation.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Let's put Miko's actions in a more familiar context.

Chief: An important installation was destroyed, this is who we think did it. Take care of it.

Cop: I'll kill them all.

Chief: No, bring them in for trial.

Cop: As you wish.


Cop: I'm looking for this group.

Witness: They're over there.

Cop: DEAD OR ALIVE YOU ARE COMING WITH ME

Party: What? Who are you, and what are you talking about? I have no reason to go with you.

Cop: YOU HAVE CHOSEN "DEAD".

Such a reasonable way to deal with the situation.

Chief: These people blew up a dam, the resulting flooding threatens a sizable metropolitan area.
Cop: I'll kill them all.
Chief: Try to bring them in alive if you can.
Cop: I'm looking for these people.
Witness: They're over there. Also they're guilty of blowing up the dam, kidnapping, and multiple counts of murder.
*cop confronts armed and dangerous criminals, alone*

[veti]

It occurs to me that it is, at best, problematic for any members of an order of paladins to take orders from a source they do not consider sane.

Whatever the answer to that conundrum is, I would assume it's something that the Sapphire Guard had considered and reached a decision about long, long before it became an issue in this case. Let's imagine senior members of the SG getting together, and discussing whether they should continue to take orders from Shojo/Mr Scruffy.

Maybe they considered the orders, rather than the manner in which they were delivered, and found that they were still quite sound. Maybe they just accepted their duty to take the orders in blind faith, and would continue to do so unless they became physically or morally impossible. Maybe they used some sort of magical divination to seek guidance from the Twelve Gods on whether they should replace Shojo, and got the answer "no". We don't know.

But whatever happened, it happened years ago. It's not something that was new in this scenario, and required Miko to make up new policy on the fly.

[super dark33]

Chief: These people blew up a dam, the resulting flooding threatens a sizable metropolitan area.
Cop: I'll kill them all.
Chief: Try to bring them in alive if you can.
Cop: I'm looking for these people.
Witness: They're over there. Also they're guilty of blowing up the dam, kidnapping, and multiple counts of murder.
*cop confronts armed and dangerous criminals, alone*

Cop goes to criminals:

Cop: You are coming with me or you die.

Criminals: On what claims?

Cop: Die!

[Koo Rehtorb]

Cop goes to criminals:

Cop: You are coming with me or you die.

Criminals: On what claims?

Cop: Die!

I don't find that particularly unreasonable? The criminals presumably know that they're guilty of multiple crimes and any attempts at denying it are likely an effort to stall for time while they get ready to murder you or flee the scene. These aren't petty criminals that you're arresting for shoplifting.

Miko really just had extraordinarily bad luck that all the evidence pointed in precisely the wrong direction.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I don't find that particularly unreasonable? The criminals presumably know that they're guilty of multiple crimes and any attempts at denying it are likely an effort to stall for time while they get ready to murder you or flee the scene. These aren't petty criminals that you're arresting for shoplifting.

Miko really just had extraordinarily bad luck that all the evidence pointed in precisely the wrong direction.

The cop should at least identify themselves as such. Otherwise it looks like a random stranger is telling you to come with them, in which case protesting is quite reasonable.

[Koo Rehtorb]

The cop should at least identify themselves as such. Otherwise it looks like a random stranger is telling you to come with them, in which case protesting is quite reasonable.

Well I agree that something like "FREEZE, POLICE(paladin)!" would probably have been the most correct way to go about it. That's really a pretty minor quibble, though, and easily something overlooked by someone who isn't used to following correct police procedure for arresting people.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well I agree that something like "FREEZE, POLICE(paladin)!" would probably have been the most correct way to go about it. That's really a pretty minor quibble, though, and easily something overlooked by someone who isn't used to following correct police procedure for arresting people.

Not really a minor quibble, as it alters the reaction of the targets. And Miko, being the person who usually goes on assignments like this, should know what the proper procedure is.