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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Int and Cha based non-core party

    The best stats in DnD are Intelligence and Charisma

    Outside of abilities and spells, they only affect skills, so spells and abilities are balanced to give them more weight.

    Ex. Cha and Int based spells lists (Wiz and Sorc) have access to more intentionally absurd spells than Wis based lists.

    Int and Cha based classes have access to stronger abilities than other classes (at their tier, generally).

    Heck, mental stat based classes dominate the Tiers (mostly due to spellcasting, but still).

    Also, unchecked Int leads to madness, while unchecked Cha leads to sociopathy.

    How crazy/dangerous would a party be if it consisted of:

    Binder
    Warblade
    Factotum
    Beguiler
    Bard

    It's basically a pot of madness and unchecked self-regard!

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    Orc in the Playground
     
    Tingel's Avatar

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    Default Re: Int and Cha based non-core party

    Quote Originally Posted by Ardantis View Post
    Also, unchecked Int leads to madness, while unchecked Cha leads to sociopathy.
    They do?





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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Zanos's Avatar

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    Default Re: Int and Cha based non-core party

    Quote Originally Posted by Tingel View Post
    They do?
    You could argue that. A massive sense of self importance(CHA) or just incredible genius(INT) could lead to world outlooks that are very bizarre, especially when not balanced with a good amount of perspective(WIS).

    And the example party looks like a pretty solid tier 3 arrangement. They should be able to handle a very wide variety of challenges competently.
    If any idiot ever tells you that life would be meaningless without death, Hyperion recommends killing them!

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    HaikenEdge's Avatar

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    Default Re: Int and Cha based non-core party

    I'm not clear on what you're meaning to discuss, but if you're looking for a powerful and dangerous non-core Int- & Cha-based party, I'd suggest the following:

    Spell-to-Power Erudite
    Archivist with a splash of Beguiler and Alternate Spell Source
    Factotum
    Warblade

    I could make the argument that Warblade isn't even necessary, since the Archivist can use Divine Power, and the StP Erudite will have learned the Arcane version from the Archivist.

    And what you have regarding madness/sociopathy have nothing to do with the rules, so unless you're house-ruling it, it doesn't apply at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by (Un)Inspired View Post
    Contingency is like playing chess but you get to make several moves on your turn, several on you opponents turn and you're allowed to rearrange the board when he gets up to go to the bathroom.
    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
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    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Int and Cha based non-core party

    Thank you for your kind approach to my perspective, Zanos.

    Haiken, I suggested Tier 3 classes because it's fairly well accepted that Tier 1s are powerful and dangerous, core or non-core, and I wanted to investigate the cha and int based classes on a more sensible level.

    As far as what I was attempting to (successfully) discuss, it was the idea that the values behind the stats and on which they are based lead characters that are Int and Cha based (and yes, lacking Wis) to be a little crazy and unusual, not to mention generally being characters with stronger abilities but weaker chassis.

    I resent the implication that a discussion on the feel and values of the mechanics as they stand in the licensed material be dismissed as house-ruling.
    Last edited by Ardantis; 2014-04-21 at 08:07 PM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Alex12's Avatar

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    Default Re: Int and Cha based non-core party

    First off, since when are Bards non-core?

    Second, if you want unchecked madness and self-regard, look no further than the average Dread Necromancer. Pretty much everything they've got keys of Charisma. Spells? Charisma. Rebuking? Charisma. Number of undead controlled? Charisma (a level 8 DN can reasonably expect to be able to match or beat a level 16 cleric or wizard in terms of number of undead controlled). Concentration checks? Charisma (once they turn undead, anyway, which approximately all of them do or are aiming for)

    And I think it's reasonable to assume the average Dread Necromancer is a raging ball of arrogance and ego.

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    Titan in the Playground
     
    TuggyNE's Avatar

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    Default Re: Int and Cha based non-core party

    Quote Originally Posted by Ardantis View Post
    I resent the implication that a discussion on the feel and values of the mechanics as they stand in the licensed material be dismissed as house-ruling.
    But ... where in the licensed material are Int and Cha associated, directly or indirectly in any way, with either madness or sociopathy? What basis for this exists within the rules?

    If there is none, then the implication is in fact precisely and wholly accurate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    "Common sense" and "RAW" are not exactly on speaking terms
    Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.

    Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in · "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid" · Use of gray may indicate nitpicking · Green is sincerity

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Alex12's Avatar

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    Default Re: Int and Cha based non-core party

    Quote Originally Posted by TuggyNE View Post
    But ... where in the licensed material are Int and Cha associated, directly or indirectly in any way, with either madness or sociopathy? What basis for this exists within the rules?

    If there is none, then the implication is in fact precisely and wholly accurate.
    Heroes of Horror, taint rules.
    Undead and evil outsiders get depravity based on their Charisma.
    Furthermore, Wisdom determines your ability to resist that sort of thing.

    Not saying it's a lot (and I can't come up with anything for Int) but it's something.

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    Titan in the Playground
     
    TuggyNE's Avatar

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    Default Re: Int and Cha based non-core party

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex12 View Post
    Heroes of Horror, taint rules.
    Undead and evil outsiders get depravity based on their Charisma.
    Furthermore, Wisdom determines your ability to resist that sort of thing.

    Not saying it's a lot (and I can't come up with anything for Int) but it's something.
    Fair enough. To me that looks more like "Charisma magnifies the effect of certain disorders that are endemic among undead and evil outsiders", but I suppose it's possible to draw a different conclusion. However, I don't think it's possible to say in general that that evidence alone is proof that high Cha leads to sociopathy, since it only works on a one and a quarter creature types; nearly all playable races are left out of that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    "Common sense" and "RAW" are not exactly on speaking terms
    Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.

    Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in · "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid" · Use of gray may indicate nitpicking · Green is sincerity

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    HaikenEdge's Avatar

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    Default Re: Int and Cha based non-core party

    There are separate sanity rules in Unearthed Arcana where sanity itself is a separate attribute not based on any of the six base attributes, even if Insanity can lead to penalties to certain mental attribute-based checks, saves, etc.

    Taint itself is basically caused by exposure to evil, leading to corruption and depravity, and actually has little to do with a character's ability scores in terms of having them as a causal relationship; in the case of creatures of the Evil subtype and the undead type, that's a instance of specific overriding general, so it's the mentioned creatures that are instanced by the mention.
    Quote Originally Posted by (Un)Inspired View Post
    Contingency is like playing chess but you get to make several moves on your turn, several on you opponents turn and you're allowed to rearrange the board when he gets up to go to the bathroom.
    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Spite™! Obey your thirst...for VENGEANCE.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Int and Cha based non-core party

    Madness is more associated with low Wisdom if anything, what with Willing Deformity(Madness) and so on.

    Sociopathy does not, to my knowledge, have any direct link to Charisma - not in the sense of "high/low Charisma means you're a sociopath (or being a sociopath lowers/raises your Charisma", at least.

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