Does Furious Bolts Need to be "Fixed?"

[Daracaex]

To start: IF YOU ARE IN MY SCALES OF WAR CAMPAIGN, STOP READING.


Now that that's taken care of, I've noticed a fairly common occurrence almost every encounter, and it's become more noticeable recently when I had an encounter featuring minions. The encounter starts, the storm sorcerer player uses Furious Bolts, and deals significant damage to every creature and destroys every single minion, then auto-hits whatever attack she uses the next turn.

Honestly, the auto-hit for the next attack isn't too big a deal, as I've noticed the party misses rarely anyway and have kind of accounted for it. What does concern me is this one attack making me almost unable to use minions and making all the other monsters less effective just by virtue of every one of them being hit so they don't stick around to do their thing as long. And since Furious Bolts has no restriction on range (10 squares between each target almost always hits all of them) and she has stacked to-hit bonuses (halfling bonus against anything medium or larger, combat advantage in first round, other various things), it rarely misses until it gets every target it can.

Perhaps I'm blowing the problem out of proportion and it's not as bad as I think. BUT, there IS a situation coming up in my campaign where it may cause major problems. If anyone is familiar with the Scales of War adventure path, we're currently in Alliance at Nefelus. The final encounter of the adventure involves a bunch of mirrors that, if destroyed, disable a trap that's a major part of the encounter's difficulty. I can easily see the player using Furious Bolts early in the encounter, hitting every single mirror and destroying them, and disabling the trap without a fuss.

In any case, the power seems abnormally powerful and I WOULD like to be able to use minions when appropriate without them simply serving as little pictures cluttering the map in the beginning of an encounter. Is there a good way to fix this power?

[Inevitability]

Don't know much about the power, but instead of minions, you may want to use swarms. They still capture that 'horde of monsters' feel, and while a swarm will still take extra damage from area attacks, these attacks don't destroy them in one hit.

Or use waves. First wave of monsters attacks, and the sorcerer attacks them with FB. Then a wave of minions attacks. It also teaches the players to be more careful with attacks.

[tcrudisi]

Furious Bolts is certainly a good power, but its not to the level of being broken. My personal experience with it (both having it and a party member having it), is that it'll work really well about once in every four combats. We run into the problem that there are only so many attack bonuses available (and our leaders don't tend to hand them out unless one of the two of us is playing one) and we play in high-op games where the monsters are usually level +5, so we hit on 8's or 9's.

In low-op games, if the Sorc is optimized, then I can see it being a bit of a problem. Superior Reflexes, Accurate Implement, blah blah, all add up to where he's probably hitting on a 3 or 4. There are ways to fix this, though.

1. Bring a second wave of monsters in after turn 1. He'll blow the power on round 1, more show up in round 2.
2. I've seen monsters that can force a miss. They teleport as an immediate interrupt, force a reroll via halfling racial, give a penalty to attack rolls, etc.
3. Remember that this isn't a burst or blast. It's a ranged attack. That leaves it vulnerable to things like stealth and invisibility.
4. Ignore it. It's a strong power, but its not game-breaking. Sometimes a power just has its moments of glory.

[Kurald Galain]

it rarely misses until it gets every target it can.

This right here is your issue.

The game expects the players to hit 65% - 75% of the time; as long as they are in that range, there's nothing wrong with Furious Bolts. If they hit significantly more often, your simple solution is to use higher level enemies. If only the sorcerer hits significantly more often then you've potentially got a problem with power difference between PCs at your table.

Aside from that, the obvious counter is to use reinforcements, i.e. troops that don't appear on the battle map until the second or third turn. Or troops that are out of sight or behind cover; it's a ranged attack so it has big penalties against anything you can't see.

Another thing to consider is that the power targets creatures rather than enemies, so just like Chaos Bolt, you may rule that it starts hitting PCs once you run out of enemies. I'm aware that RAW is ambiguous on this and not all groups play it that way.

[NecroRebel]

Don't know much about the power, but instead of minions, you may want to use swarms. They still capture that 'horde of monsters' feel, and while a swarm will still take extra damage from area attacks, these attacks don't destroy them in one hit.

Furious Bolts isn't an area attack; it's a ranged attack that lets you do a secondary attack against a different target if you hit, and the secondary attack lets you repeat itself if it hits. If you always hit, it works much like an area bust 10.

Um. I might be wrong about this, but the target line on both the primary and secondary attacks reads "one creature" and not "one enemy." As such, if there's party members in range of the secondary attack when it triggers and no other valid targets, the sorcerer should be compelled to attack them. I don't remember if a creature is required to make a ranged attack if they use one and don't want to, though, if that makes sense.

Do note that the sorcerer needs to have line of effect to all targets; the LoE on the secondary attacks isn't drawn from the primary target because the power doesn't say that it is. As such, if there's a big tough monster in the enemy's front line, everything behind it relative to the sorcerer will have cover. Since Furious Bolts is a ranged attack, it takes the -2 penalty from cover. If there is just outright obstacles between the sorcerer and a would-be target, the sorcerer just simply can't hit them with it.

You might also try altering the enemies tactics. If an enemy group knows of this powerful ability and its limitations, they might try consistently forcing the party into pincer attacks. If half the encounter is 11 tiles or more from the other half, the power will not be able to hit more than half of the enemies. Having enemies come in waves will also significantly reduce the power of that power.

Finally, if your PCs are always hitting and generally having an easy time in battle, consider simply using higher-level enemies and harder encounters.

[Sol]

Mostly I'd say no, it doesn't need to be fixed. Minions are a nuisance that are either trivial for your party to wipe the floor with, or decimate efficacy by forcing parties with severely limited AoE to "waste" at least one standard action per minion to remove. The latter is terribly unfun for everyone involved, so be thankful that it's the former in this case.

The storm sorc is perhaps better at said minion popping than some, but he's no better than a wizard, invoker, cleric, or swordmage who put some consideration into their build. Sure, most of the others would do it with Burst/Blast 5s instead of a repeating R10, but in the end that difference is semantics, and Furious Bolts has a repeating chance to terminate early, while a morninglord could use Pure Glow to not only guarantee an attack against everything in at least a burst 5, but it also deals autodamage to everything in that burst when they start their turn, which defends against round 2 minion spawning and pops any minions that were missed.

If you are following Scales of War rote, you're somewhat limited in terms of levelling up monsters or boosting their defenses or spreading them out more or bringing some of them in on round 2, but most players don't necessarily expect or want you to play the campaign exactly as-written, so you do have some flexibility.

In regards to attacking players with it, well, the verbiage specifically says that you "can" repeat the attack so long as you hit and have more targets you have not yet hit. It does not say that you "must." It's a potential houserule route you could go, but I probably wouldn't.

Scales of War gets pretty brutal at times, and is a cakewalk at other times, and which times those are probably depends a lot on party composition. I'd just let him have his fun!

[Kurald Galain]

In regards to attacking players with it, well, the verbiage specifically says that you "can" repeat the attack so long as you hit and have more targets you have not yet hit.

Actually, it simply says "Repeat the attack". But I suppose you could houserule that he doesn't have to attack, if you don't like that

[WickerNipple]

Our Sorcerer rolls a 1 about 50% of the time with Furious Bolts, so from my anecdotal experience it ain't broken at all.

[Sol]

Actually, it simply says "Repeat the attack". But I suppose you could houserule that he doesn't have to attack, if you don't like that

I guess the language is sort of conflicting. It does say "Repeat the secondary attack against any single creature you have not yet hit with this attack," which could easily be read as mandatory. But it then goes on to say the following parenthetical, "(You can continue attacking as long as you keep hitting and still have targets you haven’t attacked yet.)," which has that magical "can" in there.

At my table, in any event, I'd read that as optional, because a mandatory attack should specifically say, "You must continue attacking....".

But you're right, it's closer than I was giving it credit for.

[NecroRebel]

But it then goes on to say the following parenthetical, "(You can continue attacking as long as you keep hitting and still have targets you haven’t attacked yet.)," which has that magical "can" in there.

I always assumed that that bit was there to clarify that you don't stop after the second secondary attack. If it wasn't there, some people might think that you only got two secondary attacks even if you kept hitting. So that "can" in the parenthetical isn't saying that you have the ability to stop attacking, but rather that you have the ability to continue attacking non-stop.

It is open to interpretation, however, as you say. It's a complicated power considering how simple it is

[Kimera757]

Minions die too easily anyway. Use zombies (avoid death once), halflings (no reason a halfling minion can't have Second Chance) or orcs (charge when they die). Or minions that explode and deal damage.

I especially like orcs for this, because it's almost worse to kill a bunch of them. Note that orc archers can make ranged attacks when killed. Focus fire? Perhaps on the sorcerer? Or whoever is at lowest health?

[Epinephrine]

Outside the topic of Furious Bolts, I wouldn't worry about the mirrors (I am running the Scales of War as well, though farther along).
Recall that if they destroy all the mirrors, the whole of Icehome begins to crumble away, leading to the exciting possibility of having to escape the sinking/collapsing iceberg (complete with skill challenge) while being attacked by a solo exarch of Tiamat.

Could get nasty, fast.

If you want to see how I rewrote the solo (to bring it up to MM3 stats) let me know.

[Daracaex]

Outside the topic of Furious Bolts, I wouldn't worry about the mirrors (I am running the Scales of War as well, though farther along).
Recall that if they destroy all the mirrors, the whole of Icehome begins to crumble away, leading to the exciting possibility of having to escape the sinking/collapsing iceberg (complete with skill challenge) while being attacked by a solo exarch of Tiamat.

Could get nasty, fast.

If you want to see how I rewrote the solo (to bring it up to MM3 stats) let me know.

Ooh, that's a good point. I hadn't thought of that. Here I was, thinking it'd be best to give the mirrors some kind of energy redirection property to protect more than one from being targeted with Furious Bolts. I think I like that idea, though.

And I'd love to see how you reworked Chillreaver. I've been looking at different ways myself, outside of updating damage values. Considered making it into a multi-form boss, but not sure if my skill is up to the challenge.

Anyway, thanks for the help all. This was just triggered by a recent event where the battlefield was halved by her single attack and everyone went, "wow." I'll just try ramping creatures up a bit more in the future, I suppose.

[Sol]

This was just triggered by a recent event where the battlefield was halved by her single attack and everyone went, "wow."

Having a player roll luckily to great effect and have everyone go, "wow," is awesome, not something to try and prevent.

If it's happening so often that it's destroying the game, or making everyone else feel underpowered by comparison, the solution isn't to increase game difficulty, because then the game will be balanced only for the overpowered character, and depressingly difficult for everyone else. So, really, either it was a lucky streak, which, again, is awesome, or you should discuss toning down that particular character's attack/damage mods a little bit with that player.

And, again, obliterating minions isn't a balance problem. Inability to obliterate minions absolutely creates a balance problem, but that's a completely different story. Minions are there to be obliterated, and in doing so to make your party feel warm and fuzzy inside.

[Kurald Galain]

Minions are there to be obliterated, and in doing so to make your party feel warm and fuzzy inside.

Yeah, this. It's pretty normal that halfway through the first round there's no minions left on the board, especially if there's a good controller in the party. Several spells come to mind that e.g. automatically destroy all minions in a 7x7 area, no roll required.

[Daracaex]

Having a player roll luckily to great effect and have everyone go, "wow," is awesome, not something to try and prevent.

Well, it wasn't, "Wow, that's awesome." It was more, "Wow, that seemed very powerful." I do not object to my players being awesome. I usually encourage it with bonuses for things like jumping off balconies to cleave an enemy's skull.

In any case, I'm not gonna touch the power. Maybe reestablish RAW since I thought cover would be calculated from the position of the last attack instead of the caster's square, but not much else.

Minions are there to be obliterated, and in doing so to make your party feel warm and fuzzy inside.

Eh, I feel differently. Minions exist to provide a minor challenge that can be taken out quickly and easily. Emphasis on "minor." If they're no challenge, there is no warm fuzzy feeling. Minions should at least be speed bumps, not just the divider lines you drive past without feeling and don't remember once they're behind you.

[GPuzzle]

I use minions in a very "necromancer-y" way - get a ton of them, get a commander (or perhaps a commander and some bodyguards), and throw them in waves. One of the most fun and deadly battles I DM'ed was versus Hobgoblins. They used some basic military tactics, so we had phalanx formations made of tons of minions and the only guy that managed to breach the defenses and kill the leader was the Halfling Storm Sorcerer that got a crit with Howling Tempest, and then he AP'ed, and used Flame Spiral (he had a Lightning Dagger), sliding them to the autodamage zone (he moved to the middle of the Howling Tempest zone). When he got hit, he used Dragonflame Mantle and suddenly he had destructed one of their formations, on top of making the Leaders very exposed.

The player felt AWESOME.

[squiggit]

A double tap that can turn into an AoE is pretty damn awesome, but the chaining hit requirements balances it out a bit and ultimately a wizard or invoker could tear down minions just as fast or faster.

Re: can/must. I thought in 4e effects like that were always optional unless stated otherwise. If not.. it turns it into a pretty brutal friendly fire spell and means an extremely successful Furious Bolts would always end up hitting the caster, which doesn't seem RAI.

Re: Minions. Using them as challenges and swarms is cool, but ultimately I have to agree that they're there to make players feel more awesome. In an action film the hero mows down a small army of mooks with relative ease and then spend longer fighting the tough enemy. You couldn't really do that in older DnD because you'd have to use extremely low level enemies (who'd in turn not be a threat at all and completely ignorable), which is the idea behind minions AFAICT.

[Kurald Galain]

You couldn't really do that in older DnD because you'd have to use extremely low level enemies (who'd in turn not be a threat at all and completely ignorable),

Tucker's Kobolds would like a word with you

[Sol]

Well, it wasn't, "Wow, that's awesome." It was more, "Wow, that seemed very powerful." I do not object to my players being awesome. I usually encourage it with bonuses for things like jumping off balconies to cleave an enemy's skull.

Okay, good. What about this use felt too powerful, especially compared to something like Pure Glow (the morninglord E11), which would have guaranteed attack rolls against everything in an 11x11 square, and popped all minions in range without an attack roll?

Is it because it's on a striker chassis, while large AoEs are generally a controller thing? Sorcerers and Monks break that generalization a lot.

Eh, I feel differently. Minions exist to provide a minor challenge that can be taken out quickly and easily. Emphasis on "minor." If they're no challenge, there is no warm fuzzy feeling. Minions should at least be speed bumps, not just the divider lines you drive past without feeling and don't remember once they're behind you.

Even if the player had a 75% chance to hit - that is, he needed a 6 to hit, each minion added to the pool was another 25% chance to break the chain. A traditional AoE here would have guaranteed an attack against each target, rather than just had a possibility at an attack against each target. This is a lot of what I meant by this particular resounding success being awesome -- it required a lot of luck, even with a high success rate.

[Epinephrine]

And I'd love to see how you reworked Chillreaver. I've been looking at different ways myself, outside of updating damage values. Considered making it into a multi-form boss, but not sure if my skill is up to the challenge.

I didn't modify him much, but used the MM3/Monster Vault type damage and condition shedding for dragons.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1q...it?usp=sharing
I actually ran it a little differently, tracking a breath weapon recharge for each head separately (it gave me additional uses in the fight, and played to the whole two-headed thing).

One of the nastiest fights they've had all campaign was the encounter "Icy Sappers" which I upped to 4 enemies
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1q...it?usp=sharing

In terms of multi-form badguys, I had to completely re-write Virizan (in a later chapter), which was great fun.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1E5m...it?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VLw...it?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1f7L...it?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1srL...it?usp=sharing

[Laserlight]

In low-op games, if the Sorc is optimized, then I can see it being a bit of a problem. Superior Reflexes, Accurate Implement, blah blah, all add up to where he's probably hitting on a 3 or 4.

Let's say you throw five minions. The probability of getting all of them, if the sorc hits with a roll of:

2: 77%
3: 59%
4: 44%
5: 33%

So just a bit of extra defense will probably solve it for you.

[Sol]

Let's say you throw five minions. The probability of getting all of them, if the sorc hits with a roll of:

2: 77%
3: 59%
4: 44%
5: 33%

So just a bit of extra defense will probably solve it for you.

"Solve" implies that a 33% chance to kill 5 minions is a problem.

[Laserlight]

"Solve" implies that a 33% chance to kill 5 minions is a problem.

/shrug
OP was saying that the problem was that the sorc hits all the minions. Two solutions: more minions so you have some left (but what if the sorc rolls a 1 as the first shot?) or increase the defense. The percentages tell you how much to increase, for the effect you want--it's not necessary to bump it to "miss on a 4" unless that's the effect the GM wants.

Of course, if the player happens to roll a string of 20s, then c'est la vie.