Waverider

[Shadowscale]

Is this Savage Species Prc worth taking in an aquatic campaign? I really wanted a powerful mount for my Sea Elf knight, and this seemed to be a good class to take all 10 levels of?

[torrasque666]

Well, first off they(not me, i'm still kinda new to any sort of optimization except in regards to Warforged Components) would probably want to know the rest of your build. What level are you? What classes have you taken? What feats do you have? How close are you to meeting the prereqs? Do you have any ToB material, as apparently without it most martials do less than stellar after a while?

[GilesTheCleric]

Is this Savage Species Prc worth taking in an aquatic campaign? I really wanted a powerful mount for my Sea Elf knight, and this seemed to be a good class to take all 10 levels of?

Yes, this looks like a very fun class. The Sound ability is useful (with other multipliers, you can get up to something like a x7), and you get pounce with the Full Mounted Attack ability. Also, Wavedancing looks like it will let you take your mount onto land, which is pretty awesome and only a little silly.

If you want specific tips on stuff to grab, there's a mount handbook, and Dictum Mortuum's ever-useful guides. I recently made an Ashworm Dragoon (Ss), so if you wanted a few tips beyond what's in the guides, I might be able to help you out a bit.

I think the most important thing to think about when grabbing this class is that you're not limited to the mounts presented within it. Buff your handle animal skill, grab leadership/thrallherd/similar, or be a paladin/druid/ranger, and you can have your pick of mounts. For paladins, you can grab anything you want whose CR is 3 less than your own, and of course there's the variant paladins in UA if LG isn't your bag.

Well, first off they(not me, i'm still kinda new to any sort of optimization except in regards to Warforged Components) would probably want to know the rest of your build. What level are you? What classes have you taken? What feats do you have? How close are you to meeting the prereqs? Do you have any ToB material, as apparently without it most martials do less than stellar after a while?

Welcome to the playground; I'm sure you'll improve your optimization skills just by hanging around. Finding a niche for your expertise might be worthwhile, if the idea of knowing absolutely everything all the time is daunting. That's certainly what I do.

The reason that ToB helps out martials is that without "spells" (maneuvers, magic items), martials are unable to effectively fight encounters at higher CRs. Creatures that can eg. fly, teleport, turn invisible, force ref/will saves just tear apart characters whose only ability is "I walk closer to it, and swing my sword". Add to that the fact that attack bonuses scale way faster than a PC's AC, and martials' only resource -- HP -- starts to be very thin.

Edit: Re # of levels: I would stop at 9 levels in this class. Getting water elementals is okay, but not amazing, esp. if you have spellcasting. If you want to be self-sufficient or maybe go down a precision dice route, then it's a good way to always have a flanker, and thus would be great to pick up.

[ddude987]

Well if it IS a aquatic campaign, water elementals are invisible underwater IIRC which makes them a lot more effective.

[Shadowscale]

Yes, this looks like a very fun class. The Sound ability is useful (with other multipliers, you can get up to something like a x7), and you get pounce with the Full Mounted Attack ability. Also, Wavedancing looks like it will let you take your mount onto land, which is pretty awesome and only a little silly.

If you want specific tips on stuff to grab, there's a mount handbook, and Dictum Mortuum's ever-useful guides. I recently made an Ashworm Dragoon (Ss), so if you wanted a few tips beyond what's in the guides, I might be able to help you out a bit.

I think the most important thing to think about when grabbing this class is that you're not limited to the mounts presented within it. Buff your handle animal skill, grab leadership/thrallherd/similar, or be a paladin/druid/ranger, and you can have your pick of mounts. For paladins, you can grab anything you want whose CR is 3 less than your own, and of course there's the variant paladins in UA if LG isn't your bag.



Welcome to the playground; I'm sure you'll improve your optimization skills just by hanging around. Finding a niche for your expertise might be worthwhile, if the idea of knowing absolutely everything all the time is daunting. That's certainly what I do.

The reason that ToB helps out martials is that without "spells" (maneuvers, magic items), martials are unable to effectively fight encounters at higher CRs. Creatures that can eg. fly, teleport, turn invisible, force ref/will saves just tear apart characters whose only ability is "I walk closer to it, and swing my sword". Add to that the fact that attack bonuses scale way faster than a PC's AC, and martials' only resource -- HP -- starts to be very thin.

Edit: Re # of levels: I would stop at 9 levels in this class. Getting water elementals is okay, but not amazing, esp. if you have spellcasting. If you want to be self-sufficient or maybe go down a precision dice route, then it's a good way to always have a flanker, and thus would be great to pick up.

Yeah, I was starting off at a knight with a swashbuckler dip and then later picking up the waverider class for the 10 levels on the account of it being the flavor I was looking for and being really good with an aquatic elf. I had planned to use a trident and crossbow as the build's main weapons. As well as a hippocampus for the mount. I know all this is far from optimal. (As I am reminded any time I ask questions as instead of actually being addressed I'm told why it's not optimal.)
I'm really just curious on what would be a good class after the 10 waverider levels (and 5 or so knight levels from the look of the requirements. Knight granting mounted combat and bonus feats what not. 1st level swashbuckler too for the skill requirements.)

Would it be better to keep taking knight levels or maybe try for something like knight protector or crusader?

[GilesTheCleric]

Well if it IS a aquatic campaign, water elementals are invisible underwater IIRC which makes them a lot more effective.

I didn't realize that. That's actually a pretty neat ability! Note to self: become a water elemental any time I'm underwater. Which isn't often, since water is the antithesis of clerics.

Yeah, I was starting off at a knight with a swashbuckler dip and then later picking up the waverider class for the 10 levels on the account of it being the flavor I was looking for and being really good with an aquatic elf. I had planned to use a trident and crossbow as the build's main weapons. As well as a hippocampus for the mount. I know all this is far from optimal. (As I am reminded any time I ask questions as instead of actually being addressed I'm told why it's not optimal.)
I'm really just curious on what would be a good class after the 10 waverider levels (and 5 or so knight levels from the look of the requirements. Knight granting mounted combat and bonus feats what not. 1st level swashbuckler too for the skill requirements.)

Would it be better to keep taking knight levels or maybe try for something like knight protector or crusader?

My apologies if my post leaned too much on optimization. I think that's a result of both this forum's culture, and also the fact that it's difficult to suggest "fun" to other people. Rules and min-maxing are more concrete and less personal.

I think your plan of going with Knight/Swashbuckler/Waverider seems good; it's even more efficient feat-wise than paladin, since pally only gets 1 mounted combat feat. I'm not sure that grabbing swashbuckler 1 is necessary, though -- waverider requires 5 BAB and 6 ride, both of which you have from knight at level 5. That leaves you with 5 more levels.

As to what is the best, I don't really know -- what's your goal? Without knowing, I'll list some classes assuming that flexibility and improving the mount are possible goals.

Knight: shield ally at 6 is good, but all of the rest of the best abilities in this class are higher than 10, so grabbing 6-10 may not be worthwhile.

Knight Protector: supreme cleave is cool, especially if you are allowed to use it while mounted. No mercy and retributive strike unfortunately come at too high a level. But, this would be easy to dip into just for the cleave, if you wanted.

Crusader: Can't go wrong with ToB. And of course your other class levels count towards 1/2 initiator, so you can get up to 6th level maneuvers.

Other options:
Zhentarim Skymage: Depending on the other component of your alignment, this may or may not be a good pick. The knight's cha synergizes well here, and this PrC will let you pick up a second mount -- maybe some sort of sea drake to stay thematic -- which increases your versatility. The reqs are difficult to deal with, but if you want in, I've got at least two solutions for non-casters.

Prestige Paladin: Buff your mount even further, and add some healing to your ways of helping out your allies. Huge buff to your saves.

Prestige Ranger: This might actually be a really good pick, if you can allow the combat style to apply to trident+xbow.

Bone Knight: For further enhancing the knight's focus on armor. Grants a land mount. Grabbing the 5th level ability may not be your jam, which means you've got a free level to use to grab the prereqs.

Beastmaster/Cavalier/Halfling Outrider/Wild Plains Outrider/Vadalis Beastkeeper/Silverwood Outrider: for buffing the mount. Cavalier seems pretty appropriate; see if you can swap weapon focus from lance to trident.

Legacy Champion: For more levels in Waverider.

[Shadowscale]

I didn't realize that. That's actually a pretty neat ability! Note to self: become a water elemental any time I'm underwater. Which isn't often, since water is the antithesis of clerics.

My apologies if my post leaned too much on optimization. I think that's a result of both this forum's culture, and also the fact that it's difficult to suggest "fun" to other people. Rules and min-maxing are more concrete and less personal.

I think your plan of going with Knight/Swashbuckler/Waverider seems good; it's even more efficient feat-wise than paladin, since pally only gets 1 mounted combat feat. I'm not sure that grabbing swashbuckler 1 is necessary, though -- waverider requires 5 BAB and 6 ride, both of which you have from knight at level 5. That leaves you with 5 more levels.

As to what is the best, I don't really know -- what's your goal? Without knowing, I'll list some classes assuming that flexibility and improving the mount are possible goals.

Knight: shield ally at 6 is good, but all of the rest of the best abilities in this class are higher than 10, so grabbing 6-10 may not be worthwhile.

Knight Protector: supreme cleave is cool, especially if you are allowed to use it while mounted. No mercy and retributive strike unfortunately come at too high a level. But, this would be easy to dip into just for the cleave, if you wanted.

Crusader: Can't go wrong with ToB. And of course your other class levels count towards 1/2 initiator, so you can get up to 6th level maneuvers.

Other options:
Zhentarim Skymage: Depending on the other component of your alignment, this may or may not be a good pick. The knight's cha synergizes well here, and this PrC will let you pick up a second mount -- maybe some sort of sea drake to stay thematic -- which increases your versatility. The reqs are difficult to deal with, but if you want in, I've got at least two solutions for non-casters.

Prestige Paladin: Buff your mount even further, and add some healing to your ways of helping out your allies. Huge buff to your saves.

Prestige Ranger: This might actually be a really good pick, if you can allow the combat style to apply to trident+xbow.

Bone Knight: For further enhancing the knight's focus on armor. Grants a land mount. Grabbing the 5th level ability may not be your jam, which means you've got a free level to use to grab the prereqs.

Beastmaster/Cavalier/Halfling Outrider/Wild Plains Outrider/Vadalis Beastkeeper/Silverwood Outrider: for buffing the mount. Cavalier seems pretty appropriate; see if you can swap weapon focus from lance to trident.

Legacy Champion: For more levels in Waverider.

Thank you, I feel I can build a really fun to build character with
Knight 6
Waverider 10
and Knight Protector 4

I really appreciate all the help. ^^ If you or anyone else has any ideas or suggestions let me know. :D