The Pub: Off-topic chat for forum gamers

[Askthepizzaguy]

Proposed game elements: Toy Story game

Spoiler: Game elements and mechanics

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Narrator: Askthepizzaguy

Askthepizzaguy will be taking on the role of Andy Davis' mom, Mrs. Davis.

• Essentially, "Mom" makes the rules, purchases all the toys, and invites people over to the house to play.
• Mom also replaces toys that are no longer being played with (inactive players)
• Or gathers them up and tosses them out in a Yard Sale if they have broken the rules. (Wrath of Mrs Davis)
• Andy's Mom also tells you if the toys have been damaged during play. (Broken toys)
• Andy's Mom also tells you if the toys are so badly broken that they had to be removed from play (Murdered)
• Andy's Mom will also inform you if any of your toys have gone missing.

Mrs. Davis: The narrator, Askthepizzaguy. Not a player in the game, cannot win the game by any means, and Mrs. Davis is not a role given to any player character. Be warned.

Damaged toys: Have been broken or mishandled during play and are no longer capable of using any special powers that they might have, other than immunities. It's possible that toys can be repaired.

**Caution: Broken toys who are then Lynched will not have their alignment revealed!**

Lynched: To be removed from play by a vote during the Day phase, the lynchee is chosen based on who received the most votes, in the event of a tie, secret tie-breaking mechanics will be used. If toys are not broken, their alignment will be truthfully revealed upon lynch.

Repaired: To restore a broken toy to proper working order: ("Not broken" or "Undamaged")

Removed from play: To be either murdered or lynched. There's no coming back from this, it is a permanent state of affairs, and you may no longer vote or discuss things with your fellow players, with the exception of the Antagonists. You are out of the game and must respect the rules regarding communication about the game post death.

**Roles which are removed from play by a murder will not have their alignment revealed.**

Missing Toys: It is possible that some toys could be removed from play in a manner that is not permanent. The exact circumstances of this phenomenon are unknown. Missing toys may continue to discuss with the other toys, but they cannot vote. (They can try, but their vote will not count)

Missing Toys cannot be targeted with night actions (if they are, there will be no effect).

Alignment: Five categories will be given:

• Antagonists (Mafia)
• Protagonists (Town)
• Neutrals
  
• Third Party
  
• Unknown (no data)

Antagonists: This refers to the Mafia team in this game, also known as the werewolf team in werewolf games. They are specifically anti-town, and they win if the Town doesn't win.
"Not Broken" Antagonists will be clearly identified as such upon Lynch.

Protagonists: This refers to the Town team in this game, also known as the villager team in werewolf games. They are specifically pro-town, and they win if they remove all threats to Town, meaning the Antagonists and any other anti-town forces that are a requirement to be removed.
"Not Broken" Protagonists will be clearly identified as such upon Lynch.

Neutrals: It is possible that some roles are neutral. Neutral roles have specific victory conditions which do not prevent either the Antagonists or Protagonists from winning, and are therefore not specifically a threat to either side's victory. Neutrals may be able to join the Protagonist or Antagonist team under specific, rare circumstances, but there is no such thing as Forced Recruitment in this game. Neutrals cannot be forcibly converted to the Antagonist team or Protagonist team, and if they wish, can always remain neutral. There may or may not even be any Neutrals in this game. Sometimes I include this category merely as a possibility.
"Not Broken" Neutrals will be clearly identified as such upon lynch.

Third Parties: It is possible that there are other-aligned roles in this game, who are playing for keeps, and thus a threat to the Antagonists and the Protagonists, or are otherwise neutral and have their own secret win conditions which are not a threat to the Antagonists or the Protagonists. There may or may not even be any Third Parties in this game. Sometimes I include this category merely as a possibility.
"Not Broken" Third Parties will be clearly identified as such upon Lynch.

Andy's Toys: The bulk of the characters in this game will be made of of Toys owned by Andy Davis, but not all characters in this game will be Toys owned by Andy Davis.

Cover roles: Some players might be provided with additional viable fake/cover roles which they can claim. This is designed to prevent the game from being broken or for the Protagonists to be given an unfair advantage if they decide to mass claim. The host-provided cover roles may have other additional affects which are not spelled out here.

Forced Recruitment: Does not exist in this game. Neutrals are therefore not a threat to either side unless they specifically choose to become one. Any alignment changes are therefore voluntary.

~~~~~~~~~~

Day Phase (72 hours)- Vote to lynch, discuss strategy with the whole group in the public thread.

Night Phase (48 hours)- Night actions must be in before the Night Phase is over. They may be sent in advance, but cannot be sent late. Discuss strategy with the whole group in the public thread.

Restricted Private Communication:

Spoiler: Private communication rules

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The only private communication that is allowed in this game are quicktopics that are set up and explicitly granted to players by the game host. For example, the Antagonists will have a quicktopic. These quicktopics are not allowed to be revealed in the thread under any circumstances or for any reason until the Narrator has declared the game to be over, and posted them personally.

Users who are not participants in the game (Spectators) may not contact active players about the game while the game is in play, please. If you want to play, sign up to be a player.

Exceptions: I will set up a quicktopic for spectators and players who have been permanently removed from play, which will generally not contain spoilers. I will also set up another quicktopic for people who wish to be completely spoiled, and are advised that they cannot share the link with anyone.

To gain access to these quicktopics, you must PM the game moderator / Narrator, Askthepizzaguy. Do not ask for the link from anyone else, because all participants in the quicktopic need to be approved by Askthepizzaguy first.

I cannot police activity that happens outside of the rules, but I trust players and spectators based on the honors system to uphold such rules.

Rules that must not be broken:

Spoiler: Rulebook

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1) Do not reveal quicktopics, and do not communicate about the game outside of the public thread with the above exceptions, do not communicate about the game after you have been removed from play except in a manner authorized by the game host (see above: exceptions)

2) Please do not post screenshots of your role PM, or take a similar action. Copy and pasting information from your role PM is acceptable.

3) Please do not sign up to this game using multiple accounts.

4) Please do not share your account password with anyone, to allow anyone to gain access to your privileged information about the game. Please do not allow a fellow player to observe you playing the game if you know each other IRL (protect the game integrity).

5) Please continue to follow all Forum rules, they still apply. Please follow all requests made by official forum Moderators.

6) Please follow the Narrator's instructions- if you have been advised to stop posting about the game, please do so. If you have been removed from play due to inactivity or have been replaced, please do not post in the thread any more, and please maintain game integrity by confining your commentary to the spectator's unspoiled or spoiled quicktopics if applicable.

7) Please wait until the game is completely over to offer criticisms of the game setup or the narrator's hosting decisions. It's only fair on the Narrator that you withhold judgment until everything has been revealed.

8) Please be friendly and civil toward your fellow players, and follow all narrator instructions to tone things down if they get heated.

9) All known rulebreaks must be reported immediately to Askthepizzaguy via PM.

10) In the event the rules have been broken for an extended period of time without the game host's knowledge, the game may be declared a no contest and closed. Reporting all accidental rulebreaks is important because the game host may need to re-balance the game or offer a penalty to restore balance. It is just a game, but the referee still needs to enforce the rules and keep the game fair.

Additional rules, mechanics, and information may be given at start of play, but these will be the most important rules. The rules may be amended during play if the game host deems it to be necessary.


Comments/feedback?

- - - Updated - - -

Considering past experience, I don't think the inactivity can be completely avoided. Especially with a larger game, where people will subconsciously feel less responsible if they quit. You might have to make peace with a few losses swinging things out of alignment, or design something less fragile. (I realized the latter is not easy)

In my opinion, no. Even the best narrators, keeping to a good schedule and with a good balanced game, have a couple ALs. I suggest loosening the reigns a little, allow for 1 or 2 ALs that won't be fixable with AL Replacements.

I mean, Typical I've resorted to, "Okay, who's getting autolynched and has a pretty superfluous role?"

I will probably have a couple replacement players on standby, and I may ask perhaps the first persons to be lynched or nightkilled if they would be okay with being a replacement player.

This will be allowable if they have no role-based knowledge about the game that hasn't already been made public.

I will keep in mind that even with these measures, I may be forced to auto-lynch someone.

[Aric Kale]

I would be interested in a Toy Story game. I love how much thought you've put into this.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I would be interested in a Toy Story game. I love how much thought you've put into this.

I am honored.

According to the calendar it's just a few weeks away.

[Duck999]

I am honored.

According to the calendar it's just a few weeks away.

According to the calender, a game was supposed to start yesterday.
Make sure you get it in for approval before the start date.
Also, should this thread get the WW/Mafia tag?

[Disc Lorde]

Ah, yeah, that's my game... Sorry about that. I've been really busy, and I'm still trying to decide wheter to throw something simple together and try not to spend too much time on it, or to cancel it outright. I'm leaning towards the former, but I'll definitely decide one way or the other tonight.

[BasketOfPuppies]

To Story WW would be interesting. I'll join if I'm not in too many games at the time.

[Askthepizzaguy]

There's going to be a lot of stuff going on, and therefore, it will be in the best interest of the village if they take the time to discuss different possibilities. Based on the design of the game being a far cry from vanilla and much more heavily into the strawberry-flavor than usual, I would advocate players anticipate that they'd want to log in and read and discuss what is happening more than once per Day phase. The three day Day phase is probably going to be crucial for the village.

Strawberry flavored games tend to be quite puzzling.

[Penguinator]

I will probably have a couple replacement players on standby, and I may ask perhaps the first persons to be lynched or nightkilled if they would be okay with being a replacement player.

This will be allowable if they have no role-based knowledge about the game that hasn't already been made public.

I will keep in mind that even with these measures, I may be forced to auto-lynch someone.

I have reused one player.

Thing is, I've already replaced four and I'm about to lose four more. People just don't seem to care.

[Legato Endless]

Sorry Penguinator

[Penguinator]

Sorry Penguinator

Hey, you've been playing.

But when someone is posting in other werewolf games and I've sent three or four PMs saying, "hey, you're about to autolynch, you wanna do something about it?" and then nothing happens, it becomes hard not to take it personally.

I mean, it's one thing to be gone from the forum entirely. I get it, things happen. But when you're blatantly ignoring my game - and all the PMs I've sent - in favor of another game(s), that's aggravating.

[Saposhiente]

Hey, you've been playing.

But when someone is posting in other werewolf games and I've sent three or four PMs saying, "hey, you're about to autolynch, you wanna do something about it?" and then nothing happens, it becomes hard not to take it personally.

I mean, it's one thing to be gone from the forum entirely. I get it, things happen. But when you're blatantly ignoring my game - and all the PMs I've sent - in favor of another game(s), that's aggravating.

I speculate that you're running into this because afaik you're running Typical WW as essentially FFRP with a rules-based narrative and schedule. The narrative helps the RP by providing a steady stream of things to talk about, but the schedule is problematic for people that don't always have inspiration to RP, and without wanting to RP there's not much game to play (see also Disc Lorde's comments).

[Penguinator]

This isn't the only game where I've had similar issues, though.

And yes, I've seen Disc Lorde's comments, and frankly, they bother me. If you're going to sign up as an autolynch replacement, take a look at the game in question first. That's not my responsibility. There's also the fact that a player is keeping a list of who is roleplaying as what. And the thing is, people are treating it like a standard game and voting for whoever the heck they want with little-to-no reason anyway.

But the main one that gets to me was "I'm not going to help with your game." No. I don't run games for my own benefit. If you join games thinking you're doing the narrator a favor... that's silly.

As well as the attitude of "my time is worth more than yours."

[Askthepizzaguy]

Well folks, I gotta comment- WOGs due to inactivity are exceedingly rare where I come from. We get maybe one a game, if that. Not only that, but there's almost a gentleman's agreement between all the players to lynch or murder off the inactive parties ourselves.

I forecast that I will probably need to invite some persons from where I come from in order to fill ranks, and the other benefit of that is, it's quite possible some of those people will stay and play more games here.

I can vouch for pretty much anyone I bring over, you'll have problems needing to auto-lynch them maybe once out of every 20 games or less.

I can also say that almost none of them are quite as chatty as me. So there's that.

- - - Updated - - -

I have reused one player.

Thing is, I've already replaced four and I'm about to lose four more. People just don't seem to care.

I may go gather data myself, but would folks help me out on this:

Fellow game hosts:

Can you, if you're hosted a game in the past year, shoot me a PM indicating the names of players who you were forced to auto-lynch, that never explained why they went inactive- you know, gave absolutely no reason during or after the game?

Or especially in situations you refer to Penguinator, where they were playing other games and deliberately didn't show for the one you ran, as far as you can tell?

I want to say up front, I am not into public shaming or anything like that, it's not worth all that and I don't intend to foster an unfriendly atmosphere.

I just want a heads up, between fellow game hosts, that if I give this person a role in my game, they're likely to not even bother to use it. It would be most helpful to me.

I'm not saying I won't rand them an important role, but it's possible I give someone a backup role that immediately assumes their duties if they do go inactive.

I could literally design the game around the risk of their inactivity and plan accordingly.

Or if I get like 3 people all saying this person never played after signing up, no explanation given, I likely will gently inform them that I probably won't have space for them in my game. Especially if I can get 30 or more players otherwise. Nothing personal and all that.

[Disc Lorde]

Felt the need to respond to some things here.

And yes, I've seen Disc Lorde's comments, and frankly, they bother me. If you're going to sign up as an autolynch replacement, take a look at the game in question first. That's not my responsibility.

No argument here. I said in my comments that I'll look at games before signing up as an AL replacement in the future, and that I'm sorry for any inconvenience I may have caused for not doing so this time. If you're wondering why I didn't do so this time, it's because I didn't anticipate this problem. Again, lesson learned.

But the main one that gets to me was "I'm not going to help with your game." No. I don't run games for my own benefit. If you join games thinking you're doing the narrator a favor... that's silly.

Huh? I never said nor implied that you run games for your own benefit, or that I join games thinking I'm doing the narrator a favor. I don't know how you got that out of that one sentence, but it doesn't follow logically that I know of. However, I do try to be an ALR because I think it helps out the people in those games, both players and narrator, because Auto-Lynches stink.

As well as the attitude of "my time is worth more than yours."

I never said that, nor implied it, nor do I think it.

[Legato Endless]

No Disc Lord, the second two comments aren't directed at you. The first was, the next ones are general notes of frustration Penguinator feels about common responses he's run into. When he segues into talking about people not voting in character, he's no longer ascribing things to you.

[Penguinator]

No Disc Lord, the second two comments aren't directed at you. The first was, the next ones are general notes of frustration Penguinator feels about common responses he's run into. When he segues into talking about people not voting in character, he's no longer ascribing things to you.

Yes, that.

Although, the first one extends past Disc Lorde as well, as he's not the only person, nor is this the only game, where someone has offered to be an autolynch replacement then opted out of it. (Nor am I the only narrator to see this)

[Aric Kale]

Penguinator, I love your game. It's been especially interesting since I haven't died yet. I've just been having some difficulty figuring out how to play this character in this setting, and I'm inexperienced with these games. Since this is only my second game ever, I have trouble analyzing data that may be considered obvious or putting an analysis in my posts. :b

The game itself is still fun, though.

[Lex-Kat]

I've enjoyed all the games you run, that I have played in, Penguinator. I consider you one of the best narrators on the forums. I'd play most any game you run, aside from Witch Hunt.

[Penguinator]

I, um, wasn't trying to make this about me.

@Lex-Kat: Well, that's fine. I've never run Witch Hunt, that's always Gray Mage.

[Duck999]

Hello all! I have come up with a non game WW idea. Weird, right? You must be thinking what is he thinking?
With cheesy introductions over, I present... MY IDEA!

I was thinking of a cross game achievement system. In it, people would earn WW related achievements. There would be a list of achievements thought lf by me and fellow playgrounders. I would like to have banners/trophies for each, though I can't do good art (or grammar, apparently). Maybe some bigger/better achievements have a banner or trophy. Each achievement would get you achievement points (AP). You could compete with friends to have more points. You could get a feeling of satisfaction. You. Could. Get. AFHIEVEMENTS!

Feedback, advice, etc is kind and wanted. Please give me ALL of the feedback!

(Wow I would suck at writing good speeches with infused humor...)

[Disc Lorde]

Ooooh, me like. I'm a bit of a huge achievement hunter! Some ideas:

This is our town! - Win as a villager. (10 points)
Master scumhunter. - Win 5 games as a villager. (25 points)
Who let the dogs out? - Win as a wolf. (10 points)
Master of deception. - Win 2 games as a wolf. (25 points)
Hunter and hunted. - Win as both villager and wolf. (25 points)
Seasoned veteran. - Win 10 games. (50 points)
Non-standard win condition. - Win a game as a neutral role, or complete a secondary win condition. (25 points)

Just for starters.

[Duck999]

I was thinking a little more challenging ones. Those could be easy ones, maybe sorted by tiers.
Here are some of my ideas
Be the last wolf and win
Be one of the 2 last villagers and win
Win as a neutral
Things that you aren't going to do at some point. Not just win as village/wolf, hough those could be lower "tier".

[EmeraldRose]

Well...in the past there've been trophies for Mafia (in particular) as well as _____ in the Playground contests. Something like this could work, but would require some planning. Also...would it be with a certain cut off date to start? Because these games have been around for quite some time even on the Playground. Will it be like...going forward from...NOW! or more of a lifetime achievement award?

[Disc Lorde]

Hmm. I'm all for more difficult ones but I'd be against achievements that would require you to take risks with winning and/or get really lucky and/or play hundreds of games to get.

- - - Updated - - -

Okay, maybe not the last one. It's not like they're required, so having some really rare ones is totally fine.

- - - Updated - - -

Also EmeraldRose raises a good point. Would they apply retroactively?

[EmeraldRose]

Also. I really resent this new labeling of Wolves as scum. Why are they scum? In many of the Mafia games, there were multiple groups of Wolves, and even the Masons weren't necessarily the "Good Guys". I will admit that I feel this is a change I could do without. Frankly, it makes me angry. Regardless of my role in a WW game.

[Saposhiente]

"Scum" is used as a generic term for wolves/mafia/whichever team the majority team wants to lynch. It's more common on other forums, but really, it's just a name. Insert relevant Shakespeare quote here.

[reaverb]

I was thinking of a cross game achievement system.

There's a massive problem with this: What if you can score an achievement by screwing over your teammates?


Simple example: Look at the "Win as the last wolf" goal:

Let's say there's a Wolf (Wolf A) who wants this achievement, who is working with Wolf B against the last 3 villagers. Villager A and Villager B are voting for Wolf B, while Villager C and Wolf B are voting for Villager A. Normally, the correct thing to do would be to vote for Villager A and win the game.

However, if Wolf A wants the achievement, the best thing she could do is vote for Wolf B! Then Wolf A can nightkill Villager A and convince Villager B to lynch Villager C the next day. This is incredibly unsatisfying for Wolf B - they managed to get to the endgame as a wolf only for them to be backstabbed by their own teammate for an achievement. Worse yet, what if Villager B catches on and lynches Wolf A with Villager C the day after Wolf B is lynched? Wolf A just threw away a clean wolf win to try for an achievement.

The only achievement which makes sense is just tallying wins. Even this is possibly exploitive - Maybe somebody could sign up for too many games, planning to Autolynch any where they draw Villager for their 10th, achievement winning, Wolf game.

Overall, creating these side incentives will create a worse team experience. This will not work.

[EmeraldRose]

Also...while I like watching Family Guy and Southpark as much as the next person, I think I'd be much more likely to play a Simpsons based game. I think the character opportunities are greater. Or maybe Futurama. I don't know if they've been done before...very likely.

Also, I'm speaking as a player and not someone who will run a game. Having watched Andre run multiple Mafias...I have no desire..ever...to run a WW game.

[Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins]

Also. I really resent this new labeling of Wolves as scum. Why are they scum? In many of the Mafia games, there were multiple groups of Wolves, and even the Masons weren't necessarily the "Good Guys". I will admit that I feel this is a change I could do without. Frankly, it makes me angry. Regardless of my role in a WW game.

I've had a similar reaction, honestly. I find the word scum to have a much more vitriolic tone than the other available terms. It's not the word I'd choose, certainly.

[Helgraf]

Day baners who are paying attention, and survive until late game are vicious, whichever side they're on. I tend to only use them in silly games such as Cat Fight and Fatbelly, where they're not likely to have as much effect.

So, not South Park then. That's a relief, it was more of a passing whim than anything else.

I'm down to run another iteration of Advent Children next on the schedule, which I still definitely plan to do. But, I've been thinking about a slightly more esoteric approach to WW games that I'd like to experiment with at some point. This seems like an ideal place to air them and see what folks think of it:

Multiple Location WW (loosely based on Freshmeat's World Espionage): Runs like fairly normal WW game, with close to standard roles, villager vs wolves, possibly with a third faction, neutral or evil. Players start off in one of four (three? five?) in-game locations, and can travel to a different location during the night phase. This would be specified in the end of night narration, and any player travelling would be unable to use any night action they may have. Masons start off knowing where each other are, as do the wolves (not certain on this yet, might start them off blind), but other than that, players will begin the game only knowing where they themselves are. Day phases are a vote for a lynch as normal, but votes from anyone in the same location count double. Night actions such as banes, scries, and kills only work on players in the same location. Wolves would each get a kill vote, which would only count if they voted for someone in the same location. Both teams would have one or more roles who can identify where a player is located, and there'd probably be a wolf and villager role who could move between locations without being identified in narrations. This would probably require a smaller wolf team than normal, unless starting off blind, as they would have a strong advantage early game. End game, when they're down to fewer wolves than locations, well, I think the balance might slip too far the other way?

I did something similar to this in Vampire II with the residence halls the players slept in. It wasn't quite this involved, but it included roles that could watch a given location and see who did things there (but not what or to whom), or booby trap locations.

However, I've also seen certain implementations (Werewolf: Hogwarts Havoc) where it completely destroyed the play balance. It needs to be handled delicately.