The Pub: Off-topic chat for forum gamers

[Askthepizzaguy]

1. In Stage One, you said the amount of nightkills will be little to none, and that lynches will be so unlikely to succeed that it might be better to not lynch anyone at all. Some people may therefore find this stage of the game boring and/or pointless. Not me, but some or a lot of people.

If people get that bored, then perhaps they should try to add a little excitement to their lives, and follow the Dark Path, which involves killing off their classmates for fun and profit. It might not work, but it will at least be fun for the gambling types who need action or they die of boredom. They don't have what it takes to master the Light Side anyway.

Patience, patience, you must learn patience.

The Dark side is quicker, easier, and more seductive for a reason.

2. What happens if a light-side Jedi becomes Grandmaster, then starts to drift to the dark side? Is this even allowable for a light-side grandmaster? And vice versa?

There will be the usual point of no return for either side- Follow the Light Side long enough, and you will achieve Light Side Enlightenment, and therefore can never be turned from the Light Side.

However, there will be a cost involved- vigilantism is no longer possible. Aggression is not the path of the Light Side, for those who are serious about it.

Follow the Dark side long enough, and there is no redemption possible. You will achieve Dark Side Enlightenment, and can never be turned from the Dark Side.

The offensive potential of a Dark Side Enlightened Dark Jedi, or Sith Lord, is incredible.

The defensive potential of a Light Side Enlightened Jedi Grandmaster, is equally incredible.

It is possible to achieve both, but only a Dark Sider can.

3. Can dark-siders come back to the light?

See above: Point of no return.

Almost all can be redeemed, but once you become a Sith, or achieve Dark Side Enlightenment, "almost" means not you anymore.

4. Do you promise there's no Force Breath?

No Force Breath, or Nomi Sunrider was neither an interesting role for me to play, nor an excellent Narrative device.

5. Please tell me there's no Force Breath.

If I include Force Breath in this game, I will stick to one-word posts and never change my vote in mafia games again.

Force Breath is gone. Deader than dead.

Even deader than the Jester or Joker role. Gone. Kaput. Finito. Hasta la bye-bye. That's all she wrote.

Worst... power.... ever!

[Zack]

So the question becomes - is it possible, at least theoretically, for someone to become Grandmaster while having neither light or dark side enlightenment? Or by the time you're that powerful, will you generally have achieved enlightenment of some kind?

I guess what I'm asking is really how this affect victory conditions.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I would be willing to make Day and Night of Stage One into a single phase, 48 hours long, and require there to be a successful murder the previous night in order for voting to lynch to even be allowable, and even then, only allowable for that phase. Once someone is accused and lynched, all Jedi will return to their studies.

This should expedite things, because the nature of the lynch will be mostly anti-Jedi during Stage One, unless you've actually caught a Sith already, which would be the Apprentice failing to make the attempt and getting caught by the Jedi in the attempt.

No Lynch would ordinarily be the default option for a group of Light Sided Jedi who gain abilities and defenses over time anyway.

But, the players can override this and vote to begin normal (separate) day and night phases at any time by a simple majority.

- - - Updated - - -

So the question becomes - is it possible, at least theoretically, for someone to become Grandmaster while having neither light or dark side enlightenment? Or by the time you're that powerful, will you generally have achieved enlightenment of some kind?

I guess what I'm asking is really how this affect victory conditions.

You can become Grandmaster without achieving Enlightenment. Thus, a Grandmaster who hasn't achieved Light Side Enlightenment is potentially dangerous to the Jedi.

[Zack]

It's probably fine as is, it's just something to think about.

[Askthepizzaguy]

It's probably fine as is, it's just something to think about.

I liked Sigurd's original design with two differences-

1, players without powers should be able to work to gain them, rather than be inert.

2, players should be informed that there is a competition between all players, to become the Jedi Grandmaster, regardless of your alignment.

It's not game-losing for the Jedi to eliminate the Sith and have someone else be the GM, but every Jedi who is on the light side should be aware that they are the best person for the job... not some unknown quantity who might be a Sith Lord or Dark Side Jedi or Jedi who is not fully Enlightened.

And of course, the level of complexity found in my game.

Half mafia game, half last man standing game. Any player can go Dark Side and attempt to win it all by being Last One Standing. But still a winnable mafia game for the Jedi.

[Saposhiente]

Even though lynches are unlikely to hit the Sith, wouldn't the Jedi still be statistically better off lynching people in the first stage?

[Zack]

Even though lynches are unlikely to hit the Sith, wouldn't the Jedi still be statistically better off lynching people in the first stage?

Generally, I would say yes, but when only 2 people out of 60+ are a good lynch target? That's a 97% chance of a bad lynch, and even higher with more players. Those are really really bad odds, and I'm normally someone who argues that town should always lynch and vigilantes should always kill.

As more people go dark side, the lynch becomes a lot more viable.

[Murska]

Especially when the Sith are unlikely to nightkill and the Jedi gain more powers over time.

[Saposhiente]

On the other hand, if you lynch someone, that person obviously can't convert to the Dark Side later. I would advocate for a strategy of lynching people who are considered likely to choose the Dark Side.

[Askthepizzaguy]

On the other hand, if you lynch someone, that person obviously can't convert to the Dark Side later. I would advocate for a strategy of lynching people who are considered likely to choose the Dark Side.

Mmm...

Differences of opinion are what make the game interesting.

Even in a case where statistics will favor a choice, the fact that you're playing against people means it isn't a purely mathematical choice.

[Legato Endless]

Even though lynches are unlikely to hit the Sith, wouldn't the Jedi still be statistically better off lynching people in the first stage?

Force breath was essentially a get out of one lynch free card in the two star wars games. While incredibly annoying, it proved helpful to town because it gave players time to suss out the Sith and delay last man standing. The problem with lynching players is because not all roles start equal, you might kill a powerful ally you would have wanted later.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Force breath was essentially a get out of one lynch free card in the two star wars games. While incredibly annoying, it proved helpful to town because it gave players time to suss out the Sith and delay last man standing. The problem with lynching players is because not all roles start equal, you might kill a powerful ally you would have wanted later.

It was incredibly beneficial to the town side, but frustrated their efforts, and was unpopular.

Unpopular things eventually get removed from my games. Laboratories of fun, they are, and I'm the mad scientist.

That is why for this game, a period of no lynch being the default, unless overidden, and then getting rid of force breath entirely, is a different approach I am taking.

It also gives most people a chance to play for longer than a couple phases, and actually develop their character, which is important in the long term.

Also, Legato, you really must have enjoyed the read to know all this about those games.

[Saposhiente]

I might be persuaded pregame to a gentleman's agreement not to lynch people in phase 1 but based on your description (recruitment is largely voluntary, thus people who are intending to convert to the Dark Side are effectively Dark-aligned for the whole game from Town's perspective) I am pretty sure that the Lightsiders are better off if they lynch every day.

[bladescape]

It was incredibly beneficial to the town side, but frustrated their efforts, and was unpopular.

Unpopular things eventually get removed from my games. Laboratories of fun, they are, and I'm the mad scientist.

That is why for this game, a period of no lynch being the default, unless overidden, and then getting rid of force breath entirely, is a different approach I am taking.

It also gives most people a chance to play for longer than a couple phases, and actually develop their character, which is important in the long term.

Also, Legato, you really must have enjoyed the read to know all this about those games.

Pssh, he's not the only one.

To be honest I wouldn't have played if you'd left Force Breath in there. I was only reading it and the use of Force Breath annoyed the hell out of me. (Also Nomi Sunrider had a massive Deus Ex Machina moment when they lynched the Sith Mastermind. In the narration. )

[Saposhiente]

I mean consider the extreme case, where they are granted as many lynches as they want in the first phase. They lynch everybody except 2 people randomly and have a 93% chance of winning (out of 60 players).

[Legato Endless]

It was incredibly beneficial to the town side, but frustrated their efforts, and was unpopular.

Unpopular things eventually get removed from my games. Laboratories of fun, they are, and I'm the mad scientist.

That is why for this game, a period of no lynch being the default, unless overidden, and then getting rid of force breath entirely, is a different approach I am taking.

It also gives most people a chance to play for longer than a couple phases, and actually develop their character, which is important in the long term.

Also, Legato, you really must have enjoyed the read to know all this about those games.

Oh I wasn't advocating its inclusion, merely giving am example of why not lynching makes sense when you add a develop mechanic to a game of mafia. Something I would indeed enjoy, as rpg mechanics and tactical advantage games are fun. I also appreciate the idea of power disparity beyond the normal roles, it gives a colorful sense of intrigue, but then allowing players the ability to stop being so weak is neat factor to keep people coming.

Guilty as charged. The number of times you wrote kicked in the face could be a drinking game, but everything else was pretty awesome.

[Zack]

I mean consider the extreme case, where they are granted as many lynches as they want in the first phase. They lynch everybody except 2 people randomly and have a 93% chance of winning (out of 60 players).

Thing is, if you lynch a bunch of townies in a row, people might look at all of those dead light-siders and figure it's more viable to go dark-side. Conversely, if everyone's still alive, there's more incentive to remain light-side with the legions of townies.

[Murska]

More importantly, the game is more fun to play if we're sparing with lynches early.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Guilty as charged. The number of times you wrote kicked in the face could be a drinking game, but everything else was pretty awesome.

Guilty as charged. I also stole quotes wholesale and referenced the movies something terrible.

But in my defense, argle-bargle, foofarah, blippity bloppity bloo, blah blah blah, I don't have a defense.

I had a lot of battles to write. A lot.... of battles to write. So yeah, probably re-used some of the same moves over and over.

Some moves were literally player actions and I was thus forced to re-use them, but kicking people in the face...

Maybe I felt like narrating all that was a kick in the face. Who knows. Maybe I just like the comical image of otherwise serious people with boot imprints on their skulls.

[Zack]

How long is each stage? If Stage One is long enough, it might actually make some sense mathematically to lynch every day as usual.

[Saposhiente]

More importantly, the game is more fun to play if we're sparing with lynches early.

The real solution is to align the fun with the strategy via mechanics. Perhaps make it so that if you do a lot of lynching early you're more easily converted to the dark side, since killing a bunch of force-sensitives willy-nilly because of statistics isn't exactly the Jedi way.

[Askthepizzaguy]

How long is each stage? If Stage One is long enough, it might actually make some sense mathematically to lynch every day as usual.

Well, since I pulled everything I wrote today directly out of my butt, without doing any planning, research, or design...

I have no idea. But I know what I am aiming for when I commit this game to paper:

Probably the first 5 or 6 rounds of play. With so few deaths, it will actually take up a small portion of the game.

The second stage should be the largest, and the final stage should be... pure awesome.

I want all Jedi Initiates to promote to Padawan within a few, let's say 4 successful rounds, and all Padawans to promote to Knight within 6 rounds at the most.

So let's follow that train of thought and see what else falls out of my butt.

To become a Padawan, a Jedi Initiate should have... (butt-pulling mode enabled) at least one course completed of some kind in at least two categories: Saber Training, Meditation, or Study, and a third skill of their choosing.

In other words, one step forward from zero in all three categories, or specializing twice in one category while taking the basics of another.

To become a Knight, a Jedi Padawan must have at least one course completion in all three categories and must achieve the second rank in all three, or must achieve the fourth rank in a single category.

Example:

Spoiler: Padawan training

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START

Jedi Initiate A- May start with a skill, may not. For example:

Saber- (none)
Skill- (none)
Force- (none)

----------------------------

Jedi Initiate B- Starts with a skill

Saber- (none)
Skill- (none)
Force- Strong With the Force (Counts as a course completion, but otherwise does nothing. Essentially allows more rapid promotion, but otherwise doesn't have an effect.)

........


Jedi Initiate A should probably construct a lightsaber for defense and learn a form, and also attempt to meditate and/or study. He won't promote to Padawan until he's managed to advance at least once in three different categories, or twice in one category and once in another.

Saber- (Saber Constructed/Form I)
Skill- (Introduction to the Jedi)
Force- (Introduction to the Force)

Now he's ready to promote, after three successful advances of his or her character.

Jedi Initiate B could go directly into Force training and attempt to learn a Force power before ever constructing a saber, but will be very vulnerable during that period. Simply learn a Force power, then construct a saber (or vice-versa) and you promote in two phases, since you already start with a credit towards Force Training.

Saber- (Saber Constructed/Form II)
Skill- (none)
Force- (Strong With the Force; Force Sensitivity I)

In only two phases, this Initiate is ready to promote, but is technically less skilled than Initiate A, just further along in Force training.

===============================

Now follow their training to Knight.

To become a Knight, a Jedi Padawan must have at least one course completion in all three categories and must achieve the second rank in all three, or must achieve the fourth rank in a single category.

Okay, let's see how that works.

Spoiler: Knight Training

Show

START

Jedi Padawan A-

Saber- (Saber Constructed/Form I)
Skill- (Introduction to the Jedi)
Force- (Introduction to the Force)

----------------------------

Jedi Padawan B- Starts with a skill

Saber- (Saber Constructed/Form II)
Skill- (none)
Force- (Strong With the Force; Force Sensitivity I)


==============================================

Jedi Knight A-

Saber- (Saber Constructed/Form I ; Form II)
Skill- (Introduction to the Jedi ; Treat Injury I)
Force- (Introduction to the Force ; Aura I)

With six advancements, evenly spread out, this Padawan is skilled enough to become a Knight.


Jedi Knight B- Starts with a skill

Saber- (Saber Constructed/Form II)
Skill- (Introduction to the Jedi)
Force- (Strong With the Force; Force Sensitivity I, Aura I, Valor I)

With six advancements, meeting the minimums for each category, and four in a single specialist category, this Padawan is skilled enough to become a Knight, did it faster than the other guy, and specialized much more in the Force, and is therefore capable of shrugging off Force powers, or using them. Knight A, on the other hand, will do better against Saber attackers, in that, he has more saber forms to choose from and can therefore choose the correct one. This still requires some correct choosing in his part, but that option becomes available, particularly if he sees people dying left and right who were using one of the forms he was using- might be a hint to use a different form.

Now, this is assuming people beeline training and study and meditation, and don't attempt to do things like, you know, murder each other, or specifically learn more about the light or dark sides.

Diverting from this training to attempt to murder, or to strengthen one's connection to one specific side of the Force, will prolong the wait time for a promotion, but may have other uses.

For example, successful kills will be needed later on, for Dark Siders, or to fall to the Dark Side in the first place.

Learning more about the Light or Dark sides of the Force will open up more options for actions and training, or may simply advance you towards that side of the force.

- - - Updated - - -

The real solution is to align the fun with the strategy via mechanics. Perhaps make it so that if you do a lot of lynching early you're more easily converted to the dark side, since killing a bunch of force-sensitives willy-nilly because of statistics isn't exactly the Jedi way.

I am considering the following: Lynching the innocent will make it more difficult for people to fall to the dark side, because they will feel a sense of loss, and blame the violent act of lynching someone for this loss. Whereas lynching the guilty will make it easier for people to fall to the dark side, since they have used violence to achieve their ultimate goal, which is to rid the group of a Sith. This strengthens one's predilections toward violence.

Why it is reversed from what might be the default option- lynching the innocent will result in dark side points, will mean that the more people lynch the innocent, the more people will want to fall to the dark side in the first place, since the innocent team is losing members and dark side points are easy to gain. Also, there's little incentive for people to join the dark side if the Sith keep getting lynched. The lynch ceases to become a vehicle for finding Sith, and instead becomes a free and easy means of gaining dark side points without taking any risks. I want it to be harder than that.

So I might flip the script a bit, and to provide pros and cons to lynching, have the effects of lynching guilty or innocent people be reversed, according to how it makes the person feel about the violent act itself. Is violence the solution, or not?

Jedi don't like to use violence except as their last resort, and it is still distasteful to them. They must lynch the Sith to win, but it doesn't provide them any bonuses.

Meanwhile, lynching Sith will encourage people to perhaps join the dark side, so they can become a Sith for themselves, or simply to become one of those cool Dark Jedi we keep hearing so much about.

[BasketOfPuppies]

Y'Know, I didn't think I would join, but now I think I will.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Y'Know, I didn't think I would join, but now I think I will.

If you didn't want to join because of the Jedi, and didn't want to join because of the Sith, and didn't want to join because of the Dark Jedi, or even the pepperoni pizzas, then join because there may or may not be a whole basket full of other cute furry creatures.

I present: The most epic writeup of all time.

Spoiler

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Well, second most epic.

Spoiler

Show

Neverwonagame's WOG is still number 1.

[Saposhiente]

Augh spoilers!

[LibraryOgre]

The Mod Wonder: Folks, please stop flaming each other. If someone is being a problematic player, report their posts, and PM me, Zeb, and/or Alarra specifically. We will get to them as soon as RL allows. If necessary, set them on ignore (I know this can cause problems in structured games, but sometimes, it's the only way).

If you are BEING a problematic player, please heed the words of St. Hammer: Stop. Collaborate. Listen. Don't take the game personally, and don't assume that folks are going out of their way to be mean to you just because they are playing the game. If they ARE being mean to you, PM me, Zeb, and/or Alarra and be able to show WHY you think it's meanness, and not just playing in a way that hurts you in the game.

[Internet Flea]

...has there really been a Ignore option this entire time?

That...

Huh.

[Zweisteine]

I would host such a game on this forum if participation levels in my current game are sufficient.

If not, I'm going to need a bigger boat inbox.... so, I'd host it on my native forum and you'd all be invited.

Or you could invite the people of your forum to come here!

Of course, my motivation is entirely personal. Your forum seems far laggier than this one.

If I include Force Breath in this game, I will stick to one-word posts and never change my vote in mafia games again.

What about in a context like this?

Spoiler: Cut from the last game!

Show

Ushi Makoth stepped into the airlock, where she scowled at the remaining Jedi, and held her breath as the force field was released and she was blown out into space. She lay motionless for a while, but stayed close to the ship. Then she began doing somersaults and other acrobatic maneuvers to indicate she was still alive and unharmed. For several more long minutes she floated in space, until finally Sol Jade realized something had to be done.

Sol Jade: "Too many have defied this execution already. This must not be allowed to continue."

He donned a space suit and entered the airlock. Moments later, the observing Jedi saw him float toward Makoth.

He extended one arm towards

Ushi Makoth opened her mouth as if to speak, maybe wondering what Jade was doing. But she was in space. The air rushed from her lungs, and she died within a minute.

Spoiler: Alternative version, also from the last game.

Show

With that, the remaining Jedi led Master Bos Dhi Kao out into the hangar bay, where he began to meditate and focus himself. He removed his Jedi robes and handed over his lightsaber, and smiled at the others, as if assuring them that everything was going to be all right.

Bane Anded pressed the switch, and Master Bos was blown out into space, where he demonstrated even better ballerina skills than Carnus Daye, and much better pantomime. There was even some dance routines thrown in, and man, you really should have seen what he did after that. It was totally awesome, but you had to be there, man. I am totes speechless right now. Seriously dude.

Bane Anded: "Too many have defied this execution already. This must not be allowed to continue."

He donned a space suit and entered the airlock. Moments later, the observing Jedi saw him float toward Bos.

He ignited his lightsaber, and Bos' eyes widened in fear. Bane Anded swung once, and Master Bos' head slowly drifted away from his body.

Guilty as charged. I also stole quotes wholesale and referenced the movies something terrible.

Make sure to do that again, of course.


My worst fear, of course, is that I'll join in, have something really cool, not understand how to use it effectively, then die. That would suck.

[Duck999]

I think that the biggest problem with inviting a lot of people is that some playgrounders enjoy smaller games, and some play styles may clash.

[Saposhiente]

I am considering the following: Lynching the innocent will make it more difficult for people to fall to the dark side, because they will feel a sense of loss, and blame the violent act of lynching someone for this loss. Whereas lynching the guilty will make it easier for people to fall to the dark side, since they have used violence to achieve their ultimate goal, which is to rid the group of a Sith. This strengthens one's predilections toward violence.

The problem with this system is that it actually makes Phase 1 the *best* time to lynch, since many future-Sith are counted as innocent still and thus won't have a downside to being lynched.

I think that the biggest problem with inviting a lot of people is that some playgrounders enjoy smaller games, and some play styles may clash.

If you only like smaller games then don't join.