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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Soul and Steel: A Guide to the Ironsoul Forgemaster (WIP, PEACH)

    I don't see how Therapeutic Mantle would work with Martial Spirit at all. First of all, while the soulmeld does say "spell or effect", which would seem to include maneuvers as an "effect", the bonus is based on the "spell level", which a maneuver doesn't have. OK, it'd be a reasonable houserule to use the maneuver level instead... But that still doesn't help you heal others. The chakra bind does help with healing others, but it does not give them the same benefit you get: That ability specifically applies only to spells, not effects, and the only way it improves them is by increasing caster level. Even if we houserule that to include maneuvers and initiator level, it still doesn't help Martial Spirit, and helps Crusader's Strike only a little bit before it hits the cap.
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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Soul and Steel: A Guide to the Ironsoul Forgemaster (WIP, PEACH)

    Is there any way to make Chameleon work with Ironsoul Forgemaster? It seems like the floating feat and access to spells from every class would be handy.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Soul and Steel: A Guide to the Ironsoul Forgemaster (WIP, PEACH)

    Chameleon requires Able Learner, which is human-only, and Ironsoul Forgemaster is dwarf-only. You'd have to pull some gymnastics to qualify for both--Stoneblessed or something. I don't see it being worth it.
    Last edited by Troacctid; 2014-06-22 at 02:59 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Soul and Steel: A Guide to the Ironsoul Forgemaster (WIP, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Chameleon requires Able Learner, which is human-only, and Ironsoul Forgemaster is dwarf-only. You'd have to pull some gymnastics to qualify for both--Stoneblessed or something. I don't see it being worth it.
    Dungeonscape explicitly says that Able Learner and Chameleon should be made available to changelings, so Changeling Rogue 1/Incarnate 4 with Able Learner at 1st level and Racial Emulation at 3rd qualifies for both PrCs with little difficulty. I'm not sure what Ironsoul Forgemaster adds to Chameleon though, other than slightly better weapon/armor crafting. Chameleons craft well enough without help.

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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Soul and Steel: A Guide to the Ironsoul Forgemaster (WIP, PEACH)

    You know, you talk about melee a lot, but there's nothing in the class that says the abilities can't be used for ranged weapons. An Ironsoul Forgemaster could make for a pretty good archer.

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    Default Re: Soul and Steel: A Guide to the Ironsoul Forgemaster (WIP, PEACH)

    Doesn't Secrets of the Forge explicitly stack with anything? So Battlesmith should indeed up your CL for crafting, giving you a total of at least 45.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Soul and Steel: A Guide to the Ironsoul Forgemaster (WIP, PEACH)

    Hokey smokes, this thread is still a thing!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilarian View Post
    You know, you talk about melee a lot, but there's nothing in the class that says the abilities can't be used for ranged weapons. An Ironsoul Forgemaster could make for a pretty good archer.
    True. An IF could probably arch nicely. But I focused on melee because, frankly, there's more content available for melee than there is for archery. Also because Dwarves tend to be more melee-inclined than ranged-inclined, but I suppose that's a function of the former. Also because if you're using a bow, you're not using a shield (unless it's Animated, perhaps).

    But you're right. In theory, you could do some serious damage with an IF archer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Doesn't Secrets of the Forge explicitly stack with anything? So Battlesmith should indeed up your CL for crafting, giving you a total of at least 45.
    Well, I see several possible problems, but two jump out at me.
    1. Both IF and Battlesmith have an ability called Secrets of the Forge that allows you to treat your CL for crafting as 3x your levels in the class. As a general rule, you don't get to stack the same bonus, with the same name, from two different sources. (For example, taking levels in both Monk and Swordsage won't get you 2x Wis to AC.) This might raise stacking concerns, despite language that they stack with applicable caster levels.
    2. That's 15 class levels. I'm not entirely sure if it's possible to take full IF and Battlesmith, but more importantly, I'm not entirely sure if you'd want to. Even assuming they stack, Battlesmith really doesn't give you a lot more - you get Wis to damage with a hammer, a sacred bonus to AC, the ability to ignore fatigue and exhaustion, and a 1/day save-for-half-damage. And you get an additional 15 crafting CL - and let's be honest, what do you need 45 CL for crafting for? And to do so, you're giving up the possibility of other class features, such as maneuvers, soulmelds, or spells. Even if it does work, it just doesn't seem worth the effort.
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  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Soul and Steel: A Guide to the Ironsoul Forgemaster (WIP, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Both IF and Battlesmith have an ability called Secrets of the Forge that allows you to treat your CL for crafting as 3x your levels in the class. As a general rule, you don't get to stack the same bonus, with the same name, from two different sources. (For example, taking levels in both Monk and Swordsage won't get you 2x Wis to AC.)
    Indeed, that's the general rule. The issue here though is that both of those abilities specifically say they stack with anything, and therefore they override the general stacking rule.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Let's be honest, what do you need 45 CL for crafting for?
    Lulz, mostly. Though I'm sure there's some kind of market for nigh-undispellable items.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Soul and Steel: A Guide to the Ironsoul Forgemaster (WIP, PEACH)

    I like this handbook (except there are no builds with Totemist). Admittedly I didn't think too hard on this PrC, and this gave me some insight. Added a couple links to it. Nice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Some sample builds:

    Dwarven Defender (done right, for once)

    Crusader1/Totemist6/Ironsoul Forgemaster10/Crusader1/Witch Slayer2

    Breakdown:

    Crusader to start off with for D12 HD and decent abilities. Start off with Martial Spirit stance for some self-healing which is actually relevant at low levels or Leading The Charge stance for more damage output on a charge. When you come back, pick up Thicket of Blades for better Area Denial. Remember that Prestige Classes offer full Initiation advancement for free.

    Totemist 6 is a decent jump point. You got all of your low-end chakra at level 5, and 6 nets you an extra bind to use. This build doesn't use natural attacks, however Urksan Greaves are still a valid option for more damage on a charge.

    Now, your Totem Bind is available to be swapped around, which actually gives you a lot of options. If you want ranged attacks, you can go for Manticore Belt. If you need to go underwater, go with Kraken Mantle. If you want some maneuverability, try using the Blink Shirt, for move action DimDoor. Remember, you can take your Move Action after your Standard Action if you like, so you can activate a Maneuver, then teleport somewhere else in the fight.

    Ironsoul Forgemaster can really help you out. Because you are likely going axe and shield, your Shield pretty much makes you immune to blastomancy via investing essentia. Remember, you don't have to choose, you get all flavors of energy resistance at the same time.

    Secrets of the Forge basically means that even if you don't have access to a MagicMart, you've at least got decent weapons. Forge Lore makes sure you can hit the Craft check DC's.

    Armor Bond nets you some DR/-, just like Dwarven Defender does, but without being locked into place. Stacks with Adamantine Full Plate, which you gain proficiency with via Crusader.

    Weapon Bond is an essentia dump for more damage output. The save is pathetic, but if your opponent rolls a natural 1, Dazing is not fun to be hit by.

    Witchborn Binder nets you Mettle. This makes you able to shrug off secondary effects from spells such as Slay Living, Touch of Death, Disintegrate, and others.

    This is meant as a beatstick/lockdown build, capable of taking a hit, and being mobile enough and threatening enough damage output that it has to be respected as a threat rather than simply ignored.
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    A comment on tiers, by Prime32
    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    As a DM, I deal with character death by cheering and giving a fist pump, or maybe a V-for-victory sign. I would also pat myself on the back, but I can't really reach around like that.
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  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: Soul and Steel: A Guide to the Ironsoul Forgemaster (WIP, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Indeed, that's the general rule. The issue here though is that both of those abilities specifically say they stack with anything, and therefore they override the general stacking rule.
    To be accurate, the IF SotF ability says "These effective levels also stack with any other caster levels that might apply." The Battlesmith SotF says "(this benefit stacks with any other caster levels the battlesmith might have)." It is possible, but questionable, that the "effective caster levels" from SotF count as "other caster levels" for purposes of another SotF.

    Again, it's a question for the DM. There are a lot of those. I certainly see your position, however, and choosing to take IF and Battlesmith (and hobbling your character in the process) and getting 45 crafting CL out of it is hardly game-breaking.

    Quote Originally Posted by danzibr View Post
    I like this handbook (except there are no builds with Totemist). Admittedly I didn't think too hard on this PrC, and this gave me some insight. Added a couple links to it. Nice.
    Woohoo! You know your handbook has hit the big time when it gets linked in another handbook!

    I confess, part of the reason I didn't emphasize Totemist in this handbook was that I've always seen Totemist as completely natural weapons-oriented (which I know needn't be true), and as such missed out on Weapon Bond. The fact is, even excluding natural weapon soulmelds, Totemist has a lot to offer (Blink Shirt alone is the envy of plenty of classes). And technically, nothing stops a Totemist IF from using a manufactured weapon and natural weapons (aside from claws), even though it seems a bit odd flavor-wise.

    The other part was that (other than the Judosoul Trapmaster, which uses a two-level Totemist dip) there weren't many suggestions for Totemist-based builds. Would it be alright if I snuck this build stub into my handbook as well? (I might have to edit; I think he says Witchborn Binder where he means Witch Slayer.)
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  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: Soul and Steel: A Guide to the Ironsoul Forgemaster (WIP, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by danzibr View Post
    Crusader to start off with for D12 HD and decent abilities.
    Crusader is a d10, actually. Warblade is the d12.

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    Default Re: Soul and Steel: A Guide to the Ironsoul Forgemaster (WIP, PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Woohoo! You know your handbook has hit the big time when it gets linked in another handbook!
    :)
    Ironically, this is also the first time I've seen my handbook linked in another handbook. :P
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    I confess, part of the reason I didn't emphasize Totemist in this handbook was that I've always seen Totemist as completely natural weapons-oriented (which I know needn't be true), and as such missed out on Weapon Bond. The fact is, even excluding natural weapon soulmelds, Totemist has a lot to offer (Blink Shirt alone is the envy of plenty of classes). And technically, nothing stops a Totemist IF from using a manufactured weapon and natural weapons (aside from claws), even though it seems a bit odd flavor-wise.

    The other part was that (other than the Judosoul Trapmaster, which uses a two-level Totemist dip) there weren't many suggestions for Totemist-based builds. Would it be alright if I snuck this build stub into my handbook as well? (I might have to edit; I think he says Witchborn Binder where he means Witch Slayer.)
    Indeed. And by all means.

    Regarding the weapons, while Totemists can do it on their own, it works really well in gestalt. Give up just two claw attacks for some über charging (or whatever you wish to do with a two hander). The only real problem is the feat starvation.
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    A comment on tiers, by Prime32
    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    As a DM, I deal with character death by cheering and giving a fist pump, or maybe a V-for-victory sign. I would also pat myself on the back, but I can't really reach around like that.
      /l、
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  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: Soul and Steel: A Guide to the Ironsoul Forgemaster

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Important Note


    Part of what makes the Ironsoul Forgemaster such an excellent class is its ability to craft equipment, and to boost that equipment with essentia. This requires the necessary "down time" to craft!

    If your DM does not grant you down time in your campaign, or does not otherwise make concessions to your crafting, Ironsoul Forgemaster is not that great a class! Without crafting, Ironsoul Forgemaster is a dilluted Incarnate. The class derives its primary worth from crafting. Be sure to determine before taking this class whether your character will have the time and opportunity to craft.
    Something to add in regards to this. If you can finagle it so you no longer require sleep, or if you can become immune to fatigue (and thus ignore the penalty for sleep deprivation), you can craft while everyone else is asleep. It's not a perfect solution (and it takes away your ability to change your soulmelds in the morning), but it helps when downtime is scarce.

    Additionally, crafting a bonded magic item (Dungeon Master's Guide II, pp231-235) can be done in only a short period of time, and does not require you to have access to any prerequisite spells. For example, performing the Ritual of Blood enchants your weapon and only requires a 15-minute ceremony of respect after using the weapon to strike the killing blow against a monster with a CR at least 2 higher than your character level, regardless of how expensive the enhancement normally is. You can only have one bonded item, but it's still a godsend for an Ironsoul Forgemaster.

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