Naruto VII: I see your God and raise you 2 time traveling spirits

[ben-zayb]

I did say that it would be one of the things I'd take out if I could write it.

I like Naruto but it has flaws that I wish I could fix. if I had the chance....not probably wouldn't write a fix fic, too overdone, and there is already a fan fic I particularly hope to be completed for that.

no, I think if I found the time, I'd write up my own original cast of ninja, including that blind Uchiha character that keeps running through my head, as well as a few others....

I was under the impression that nixing Kaguya has more to do with Madara and Uchiha being more relevant and symbolic characters.

Nonetheless, I'm still of the camp that Naruto didn't go downhill until part 2. Even the Chuunin exam and Sasuke retrieval aren't as convoluted in plot.

[LaZodiac]

and if there is an anime that seriously calls itself Food Wars, then it might possibly be the only one that could surpass One Piece in how bad it is. at least One Piece only screws up a serious concept that could be awesome- pirates- an anime that is about food entirely is on the same level of terrible as Yugioh.

Edit: looked up Toriko, I take it back, all three current popular shonen are stupid shows about food and therefore terrible.

The series in question is Sekigomi no Souma, I just forgot how to spell it so I used the translated title. It's pretty cool, and Toriko is amazing.

Anyway, yes, Naruto. Yeah, Naruto's got a looot to fix v_v

[Lord Raziere]

The series in question is Sekigomi no Souma, I just forgot how to spell it so I used the translated title. It's pretty cool, and Toriko is amazing.

no, they're horrible. I have no idea why you think shows about food are any good whatsoever, but I cannot take you seriously or at your word, as you also think One Piece is good for reasons I cannot comprehend. because any show based entirely on food is inherently not good writing. One Piece, it at least had potential before it threw all that away by saying that people get superpowers from eating fruit, and then it all went downhill from there and now its going through a stock horror theme park adventure that includes zombies dancing to disco and a zombie that nearly took advantage of Nami in the shower. stellar writing there.

[Rater202]

no, they're horrible. I have no idea why you think shows about food are any good whatsoever, but I cannot take you seriously or at your word, as you also think One Piece is good for reasons I cannot comprehend. because any show based entirely on food is inherently not good writing. One Piece, it at least had potential before it threw all that away by saying that people get superpowers from eating fruit, and then it all went downhill from there and now its going through a stock horror theme park adventure that includes zombies dancing to disco and a zombie that nearly took advantage of Nami in the shower. stellar writing there.

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Okay, three things:

One, you're years behind.

two you're saying that One Peace ruining it's premise in the first two or three chapters.

three, you're putting more emphasis on the devils fruit than the actual manga, so you're more or less making up things to complain about.

Sorry if I seem rude here.

[Traab]

If I had to redo naruto, I think one of the biggest changes I would make is focusing more on narutos ability to inspire and change people. We see it happen to zabuza, we see it happen in the first exam during the chunin test, we see it in a dozen random filler arcs and movies. I would like to see it done more intentionally, or at the very least, naruto ends up involved. For example, team seven gets sent as bodyguards for a land of fire diplomat and during the talks, naruto meets someone and impresses them, either with his usual talk, or protects them from an attack, whatever. Big twist, it turns out this mystery person was the other sides diplomat or ruler, or son/daughter of ruler, once again, whatever. In the end, naruto has another connection, more support around the nations, and the groundwork for him being the big damn hero of the elemental nations is laid early. When it comes time for the grand alliance or whatever the army called itself, narutos name is already known among the higher ups. That makes it more likely he will get listened to when the big battle starts and the heavy hitters come into play.

Also, that could be a handy way of making the sasuke betrayal make a bit more sense. Not only is he angry that naruto seems to be catching up to him, and so getting stronger faster than he is, he is also seeing naruto getting all this fame, and credit, and respect while he gets nothing. Its the Great Naruto Bridge, not the great sasuke bridge, naruto is the hero of wave, the hero of spring, the hero of vegetable, etc etc etc, not sasuke. That could more reasonably drive sasuke nuts than just them becoming closer together in skill level. (Really, the only advantage naruto had pre shippuden was more endurance and ability to take a beating)

[Starwulf]

no, they're horrible. I have no idea why you think shows about food are any good whatsoever, but I cannot take you seriously or at your word, as you also think One Piece is good for reasons I cannot comprehend. because any show based entirely on food is inherently not good writing. One Piece, it at least had potential before it threw all that away by saying that people get superpowers from eating fruit, and then it all went downhill from there and now its going through a stock horror theme park adventure that includes zombies dancing to disco and a zombie that nearly took advantage of Nami in the shower. stellar writing there.

Saying you can't take someone seriously because they like something that you don't seems rather rude. Have you never heard of the expression "Different strokes for different folks"? I mean, I disagree with 90% of the people on this and Bleachs thread when they say over and over how awful it is, because I love Naruto, and I love Bleach, but I'd never tell them I couldn't take them seriously because of it.

[Rater202]

Something to note.

Sasuke had given up on his revenge, then got his curse mark from Orochimaru and started talking about using it's power for revenge, and actually became more revenghe obsessed. We later found out that orochimaru puts a piece of his soul into each curse mark.

It's not difficult to conclude that the Orochimaru soul fragment had been brainwashing Sasuke while he was in that coma between getting the curse mark and kicking sound ninja ass.

A little later he get's mind raped by Itachi again, because Itachi seriously doesn't understand overkill when it comes to making people hate him. This elevates Sasuke's hatred even more and brings the Massacre fresh in his memories once again.

Between the fresh mind rape and the brain washing, Sasuke becomes willing to do anything to get the power he needs to take his revenge, even sacrifice his body. Hence, the betrayal. He defects to orochimaru, who has promised him the power he needs to defeat Itachi.

Other than considering Killing Naruto to get Mangekyo, Naruto himself doesn't enter into the Equation.

[Lord Raziere]

three, you're putting more emphasis on the devils fruit than the actual manga, so you're more or less making up things to complain about.

no I'm not, we've seen multiple devil fruit users in every arc, they're common enough for there to be MOOK Devil Fruit Users. as in, characters we see only for a minute at most then beaten like any other soldier. it'd be one thing if there was only like, a few Devil Fruit users in the entire world, its entirely another when they seem more like the X-men but sillier.

no I'm saying One Piece ruined its premise in the conceptual stages when Luffy was first thought up and it was decided he gained his rubber abilities by eating some stupid magical fruit.

@ Starwulf: wow, how do you control yourself when so many people say such things about what you like? I mean dude, its a thing you like, if you don't defend it then.....um.....I'm not sure what to think of that. the concept of not defending what I like is kind of foreign to me. I mean, I don't even go into Fairy Tale thread cause I know there are going to be comments that I CANNOT ignore about it, so....I'm confused as to how you even do that.

[Starwulf]

no I'm not, we've seen multiple devil fruit users in every arc, they're common enough for there to be MOOK Devil Fruit Users. as in, characters we see only for a minute at most then beaten like any other soldier. it'd be one thing if there was only like, a few Devil Fruit users in the entire world, its entirely another when they seem more like the X-men but sillier.

no I'm saying One Piece ruined its premise in the conceptual stages when Luffy was first thought up and it was decided he gained his rubber abilities by eating some stupid magical fruit.

@ Starwulf: wow, how do you control yourself when so many people say such things about what you like? I mean dude, its a thing you like, if you don't defend it then.....um.....I'm not sure what to think of that. the concept of not defending what I like is kind of foreign to me. I mean, I don't even go into Fairy Tale thread cause I know there are going to be comments that I CANNOT ignore about it, so....I'm confused as to how you even do that.

I'm confused as to what you are trying to say to be honest.

I don't tell people I can't take them seriously when they say they like something that I don't. There is nothing hard to understand about that. They have a right to their opinion, just as I have a right to mine, and on something so subjective, it's pointless to get worked up over it. I just gloss over the constant hatred and try to join in on any relevant discussion that isn't bashing the topic at hand. As far as defending what I like....what's the point when it comes to something as subjective as a manga? I will happily defend my personal viewpoints and morals to the death, ever so vehemently, but for something like books/movies/music, what's the point? I make my stance known(which I have, several times, LaZodiac can attest to that when I asked what was with the constant bashing on Bleach over in the BLeach thread less then a week ago), but beyond that there is just zero point in bashing your head against a wall.

My whole issue with your statement was you saying you couldn't take someone seriously just because they didn't agree with you over what's good and what's not. That is the epitome of silliness to me. It's like walking up to a friend and saying "I can no longer take anything you say seriously because you are wearing a pink shirt"(replace pink shirt with X deodorant/toothpaste/jeans/shoes/etc). Why would you judge a persons seriousness based on what they personally like? I LOVE Cable Guy, am I silly because I enjoy what the critics and mass amounts of fans have consistently called the worst Jim Carrey Film of his career?

[Lord Raziere]

well see, media and such have to make a certain amount of sense right? and for something to be bad, it has to seriously screw up at making sense right? and if someone professes they like something that doesn't make any sense, then I don't see how I can take them seriously if they willing to like such things that are so nonsensical. I'm just trying to make them see how its all nonsense, and guess what nonsense is supposed to be hated. its nonsense after all. its not a thing that is logical and good, and therefore bad, illogical and should be hated.

but don't worry, I'm not trying to control their opinion or anything, that'd be taking away free will, I'm just trying to reveal the truth about it.

[Starwulf]

well see, media and such have to make a certain amount of sense right? and for something to be bad, it has to seriously screw up at making sense right? and if someone professes they like something that doesn't make any sense, then I don't see how I can take them seriously if they willing to like such things that are so nonsensical. I'm just trying to make them see how its all nonsense, and guess what nonsense is supposed to be hated. its nonsense after all. its not a thing that is logical and good, and therefore bad, illogical and should be hated.

but don't worry, I'm not trying to control their opinion or anything, that'd be taking away free will, I'm just trying to reveal the truth about it.

I guess that's where we will have to agree to disagree. I don't see any "truth" behind liking or disliking a certain form of media. Just because you think something is silly, doesn't make it absolutely so. That's like telling people in China that eating dog is a terrible thing. It's a natural cuisine there, but over here in the states, it's considered quite disgusting. One thing that must ALWAYS be kept in mind, is that no-one likes absolutely everything the same as someone else. It's like eating Steak. I can't stand any steak that is not Well-Done, but many people won't eat anything more done then Medium-well. Just because I like mine Well-Done, doesn't make me inferior, or my opinion wrong, it's just the tastebuds I was born with. Not taking me seriously because of that means there is something wrong with you, not me. The world is a vast and wide place, inhabited by all different kinds of people, with a nearly infinite variation of likes and dislikes. To say that one is right and another is wrong is to try to force a person to be something that they are not.

Spoiler: Strictly for Raziere, please don't read otherwise.

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I would think, honestly, that you of all people would understand this concept, being a person who is or has switched genders. Obviously your old gender was not for you, you didn't feel right. How would you feel if the doctors you went to told you "I can't take your request to switch genders seriously"? It would be offensive and rude, would it not? That's what you are saying to LaZodiac, albeit on a much more minor scale. Telling someone that what they want/like is wrong and they can't be taken seriously because of it is right along the same lines.

[Lord Raziere]

ok, so I guess that makes sense.

but that still doesn't solve my own problem that them liking it doesn't make any sense to me, I can tolerate them liking it, but them liking it in the first place is still something that doesn't click with me. I'm still left with the puzzled question of: why does someone like it, if it sucks? I'm not a big fan of any "its all subjective" philosophies because its too easy to start dismissing everything as subjective with that kind of thinking, its something that answers too many things the same way without thinking enough about the issues in question.

[Starwulf]

ok, so I guess that makes sense.

but that still doesn't solve my own problem that them liking it doesn't make any sense to me, I can tolerate them liking it, but them liking it in the first place is still something that doesn't click with me. I'm still left with the puzzled question of: why does someone like it, if it sucks? I'm not a big fan of any "its all subjective" philosophies because its too easy to start dismissing everything as subjective with that kind of thinking, its something that answers too many things the same way without thinking enough about the issues in question.

Heh. Because it doesn't suck to them. That's just what you need to accept. My wife likes apples with skin. I think the skin sucks. She doesn't. It's as simple as that :)

And no, I agree, not everything can have the "it's subjective" label applied to it. Plenty of stuff isn't subjective, but personal likes and dislikes for anything like art, food, music, books, television, ALL of that can have the "It's subjective" label applied. I love Survivor, have for years. Yet I know plenty of people who can't stand it. Its totally one of those "Different Strokes for different folks". Now, if you get into stuff like Racism, that's not subjective. Saying "Person X is not a good person because of their skin color" That person is objectively wrong, no matter. Nothing subjective about it.

Really though, I get where you are coming from. Sometimes it's just hard to fathom how a person can like something when it just seems to clear to me that it's awful. I've just learned that the moment I start thinking that, to repeat my mantra "Different strokes for different folks". It really does help a lot. You just need to find a similar mantra to run through your head when you vehemently disagree with someone over something that can be subjective. Hell, use my mantra if you want! Not like I have it copyrighted or anything :)

[LaZodiac]

I think we can all agree that Naruto would be a better series is other characters other then Sasuke and Naruto where strong. Or at least worth a damn. Shino's got bugs that eat chakra, you'd think he'd be of some use. I think Naruto's got a biiiig problem with Power Creep.

[Starwulf]

I think we can all agree that Naruto would be a better series is other characters other then Sasuke and Naruto where strong. Or at least worth a damn. Shino's got bugs that eat chakra, you'd think he'd be of some use. I think Naruto's got a biiiig problem with Power Creep.

That I can agree with. A lot of complaints I see leveled at it I don't agree with, but this is one I can get behind. I still like someone's earlier suggestion that said after Gai opened all 8 gates, that Lee should have followed, and shown that he was significantly more poweful then Gai, perhaps injuring Madara to a point where Sasuke and Naruto were able to finish him off. Or allowing them to weaken him to a point where TenTen could have sealed him with the tools of the Sage.

Then again, I've always disliked how powerful Sasuke has gotten. Don't really care about Naruto's increased power, I mean until recently all he's had was Kyuubi Mode, Sage mode, and Kage Bunshin + Rasengan/Wind Rasengan. All powerful moves, but such very little variety, which is what makes a ninja truly powerful(having an answer to any situation). I mean, the title is "Naruto". So, no problems with that, but the Sharingan's ever increasing powers is frustrating. Doesn't help that I used to be a Sasuke fan when Naruto first came out(well, when I first started watching it anyways), and felt so betrayed when he left. LOL

[Lord Raziere]

Especially as people from farther and farther back in time keep showing up and turning out to be stronger than the guys that came after them.

as if, the more you go back in time in this anime, the more powerful you get in the present. either Naruto has a serious case of the Elder Problem or a serious case of Ancient Golden Age problem.....

meaning either Naruto is too filled with immortal people who learned way too much jutsu and experience, or filled with too many later generations who only seem to somehow decay from the once great heights that jutsu had risen to, despite how this doesn't make any sense and they should've been able to discover more and expand upon the discoveries of the predecessors rather than weakening and knowing less than what they knew before....

[LaZodiac]

I feel they could almost recover it if they call back to Asuma's words that they need to pass the torch to the new generation. Kaguya's obsession with the old days, of being the ninja god queen of the world and her old fashioned "I'll just strait up eat you to death" ninja magic vs the super fancy ninjutsu techniques of the modern age and stuff.

[Lord Raziere]

Shikamaru would be our only hope on that then. thing is, he is like, the only character to really get good screen time aside from Naruto or Sasuke, and that arc with Asuma dying did seem very examined and important so.....there might actually be a chance there.

[LaZodiac]

Shikamaru would be our only hope on that then. thing is, he is like, the only character to really get good screen time aside from Naruto or Sasuke, and that arc with Asuma dying did seem very examined and important so.....there might actually be a chance there.

I'd argue the entire Hidan and Kakuza arc is one of the only really well written parts of Shippuden. It showed actual character growth from both our hero and the side characters, it had realistic consequences for our hero using a super powerful thing he can do (and set him on the path of learning how to use the Rasenshuriken WITHOUT slicing his arm to ribbons, which could lead to some cool stuff) and had an actual, meaningful sacrifice, and a really badass moment at the end.

[ben-zayb]

I'd argue the entire Hidan and Kakuza arc is one of the only really well written parts of Shippuden. It showed actual character growth from both our hero and the side characters, it had realistic consequences for our hero using a super powerful thing he can do (and set him on the path of learning how to use the Rasenshuriken WITHOUT slicing his arm to ribbons, which could lead to some cool stuff) and had an actual, meaningful sacrifice, and a really badass moment at the end.

At the end? Pretty sure that Shikamaru was badass during the whole battle. He got it all figured out by then, you know? And if the brilliant Kakashi lets you take the wheels, as a tactician no less, that's nothing short of badass.

Of course, it's pretty much confirmed by their conversation that if he survives, he's taking the advisor role in support of hokage Naruto.

[LaZodiac]

At the end? Pretty sure that Shikamaru was badass during the whole battle. He got it all figured out by then, you know? And if the brilliant Kakashi lets you take the wheels, as a tactician no less, that's nothing short of badass.

Of course, it's pretty much confirmed by their conversation that if he survives, he's taking the advisor role in support of hokage Naruto.

Well yes Shikamaru was badass the entire time but the ending specifically was REALLY badass. Outsmarted Hidan, trapped him in a pit on his family's land, which will ensure he'll never be able to escape the pit once he's trapped in it. Hidan's like "what wrap?" and Shikamaru lights a cigerette and tosses it in and it explodes all the bombs, which splatters Hidan's body to pieces and also buries him in the ground forever. It kind of reminds me of the Chunin Exam and the Sasuke Retrival, where we actually got to see side characters MATTER, which was done really well I feel.

[Traab]

Something to note.

Sasuke had given up on his revenge, then got his curse mark from Orochimaru and started talking about using it's power for revenge, and actually became more revenghe obsessed. We later found out that orochimaru puts a piece of his soul into each curse mark.

It's not difficult to conclude that the Orochimaru soul fragment had been brainwashing Sasuke while he was in that coma between getting the curse mark and kicking sound ninja ass.

A little later he get's mind raped by Itachi again, because Itachi seriously doesn't understand overkill when it comes to making people hate him. This elevates Sasuke's hatred even more and brings the Massacre fresh in his memories once again.

Between the fresh mind rape and the brain washing, Sasuke becomes willing to do anything to get the power he needs to take his revenge, even sacrifice his body. Hence, the betrayal. He defects to orochimaru, who has promised him the power he needs to defeat Itachi.

Other than considering Killing Naruto to get Mangekyo, Naruto himself doesn't enter into the Equation.

Actually naruto did enter into it. The very first thing sasuke did after waking up from tsukiyoma 2: Tsukiharder, was to challenge naruto to a fight. Seeing the fact that naruto was able to stand up to him and not get steam rolled, and then seeing the difference in damage done by their respective ultimate jutsus, sent him even further over the edge. It convinced him that he wasnt getting stronger fast enough if even the village dobe could now keep pace with him.

[ryuplaneswalker]

The bad part about that whole "The Rasengan is stronger" is that the evidence Sauske saw was pretty poor IMO.

Yes Sasuke your attack is going to show less of an exit wound...because it is a piercing attack, the Rasengan's damage comes from compacting chakra into a small ball and unleashing it all at once.

Of course that is going to turn into a wide area of destruction..that does not mean it is inherently stronger..

[Traab]

The bad part about that whole "The Rasengan is stronger" is that the evidence Sauske saw was pretty poor IMO.

Yes Sasuke your attack is going to show less of an exit wound...because it is a piercing attack, the Rasengan's damage comes from compacting chakra into a small ball and unleashing it all at once.

Of course that is going to turn into a wide area of destruction..that does not mean it is inherently stronger..

Remember he is a 12 year old whose only interest is more powerful techniques. Of course he is going to look at the visible difference between the two and come to the conclusion that bigger hole = better technique. And besides, he is right, rasengan is way better than chidori. It can be used as more than an assassination technique for starters. Ramping up from nasty hit to tearing you apart internally and sending you flying through the air spinning like a dervish. Lets not forget it doesnt require you to move at crazy fast speeds and form tunnel vision while using it like chidori, it isnt the noisiest "assassination" technique ever created. Oh, and since its base form has no element, you dont have to worry about rock paper scissors effecting how deadly your attack is. A powerful wind blade would cut sasukes arm in half up to the shoulder right through his chidori. And that doesnt even consider how much more insanely powerful it becomes with an element involved.

[Rater202]

The bad part about that whole "The Rasengan is stronger" is that the evidence Sauske saw was pretty poor IMO.

Yes Sasuke your attack is going to show less of an exit wound...because it is a piercing attack, the Rasengan's damage comes from compacting chakra into a small ball and unleashing it all at once.

Of course that is going to turn into a wide area of destruction..that does not mean it is inherently stronger..

I'm reasonably certain that the psychologically scared, recently retruamatised kid with a fragment of a psychopaths soul influencing him is not going to be very rational.

[LaZodiac]

I'm waiting for the reveal that like, Chidori is just a Rasengan with lightning element added, and Kakashi unknowingly made it like that.

[Rater202]

I'm waiting for the reveal that like, Chidori is just a Rasengan with lightning element added, and Kakashi unknowingly made it like that.

Possible but unlikly:

Kakashi created the chidori because he tried and failed to complete the Rasengan with his Lightning affinity.

It's not unreasonable to assume that the Chidori imitates some of the principals behind the rasengan, so a Lightning Style Rasengan might effectivly be a super chidori.

but the chidori looks nothing like a Rasengan, so it's probably not a varient by itself.

At best, it's a lesser derivitive technique.

[Kato]

Nah, it doesn't really work... Kakashi's dad is a good bit older than Minato, so Chidori was created earlier. And even assuming Minato and... Sakumo (geez, actually had to google that) had the same idea at different times, Kakashi during the training more or less explains they are quite different because he couldn't figure out how to add element to Rasengan either. (Or something to that extent)

[Rater202]

Nah, it doesn't really work... Kakashi's dad is a good bit older than Minato, so Chidori was created earlier. And even assuming Minato and... Sakumo (geez, actually had to google that) had the same idea at different times, Kakashi during the training more or less explains they are quite different because he couldn't figure out how to add element to Rasengan either. (Or something to that extent)

From the Naruto Wiki

When Kakashi learned to use the Rasengan, he attempted to infuse it with lightning-chakra as it was intended to be combined with element chakra, but ultimately failed. However, he used the same theoretical principle to create the Chidori,[87] which he later refined into the far stronger Lightning Cutter.[88][89]

Spoiler: And some Manga pages to back it up

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Kakashi, not his father, but Kakashi created the Chidori. He did it after he learned the Rasengan from Minito, and he did it because he failed to combine Rasengan with his Lightning Chakra Nature.

[Ramza00]

Remember he is a 12 year old whose only interest is more powerful techniques. Of course he is going to look at the visible difference between the two and come to the conclusion that bigger hole = better technique. And besides, he is right, rasengan is way better than chidori. It can be used as more than an assassination technique for starters. Ramping up from nasty hit to tearing you apart internally and sending you flying through the air spinning like a dervish. Lets not forget it doesnt require you to move at crazy fast speeds and form tunnel vision while using it like chidori, it isnt the noisiest "assassination" technique ever created. Oh, and since its base form has no element, you dont have to worry about rock paper scissors effecting how deadly your attack is. A powerful wind blade would cut sasukes arm in half up to the shoulder right through his chidori. And that doesnt even consider how much more insanely powerful it becomes with an element involved.

You are right with part 1 chidori, but part 2 chidori is much more versatile (such as a chidori spear that gives you range, or a chidori defensive shield). Now rasenshurkien is better than part 2 chidori, but that is not really comparable for chidori and variants like chidori are A rank techniques, while things like rasenshurkien are S rank techniques that only a hokage should be able to perform, or naruto which needs 3 shadow clones and thus is a sitting duck without a distraction.