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  1. - Top - End - #181
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Shhalahr Windrider's Avatar

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    Default Re: Wikipedia Article Deletion

    Quote Originally Posted by Scientivore View Post
    As an aside to Shhalahr Windrider, I'm not a psychologist or anything like that. I'm just a knowledge-devourer, so I'm not qualified to provide therapy or conduct research.
    Ah, so you just play one on TV.

    There is some mental slight-of-hand in the idea that Wikipedia-the-repository belongs to everyone. I see that as a little white lie: it's true...technically...but it's not equally true of everyone.
    "Everyone on wikipedia is equal, but some are more equal than others."

    How... Orwellian.
    The Future just ain’t what it used to be.

  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: Wikipedia Article Deletion

    Quote Originally Posted by Shhalahr Windrider View Post
    How... Orwellian.
    You know the aspect of Wikipedia which Orwell did not anticipate?

    1984 was a warning against the use of technology by a central authority, right? But Wikipedia shows that if you put the ability to censor and hide and destroy truthful information into the hands of everybody, you get thousands of Little Brothers volunteering to become mini-fascists within their categories of agenda/interest.

    Why does the idea that fascism lurks within each of us scare me more than the centralization of absolute power?
    Rob Balder, Erfworld author/co-creator, and creator of PartiallyClips

  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: Wikipedia Article Deletion

    Quote Originally Posted by pclips View Post
    You know the aspect of Wikipedia which Orwell did not anticipate?

    1984 was a warning against the use of technology by a central authority, right? But Wikipedia shows that if you put the ability to censor and hide and destroy truthful information into the hands of everybody, you get thousands of Little Brothers volunteering to become mini-fascists within their categories of agenda/interest.

    Why does the idea that fascism lurks within each of us scare me more than the centralization of absolute power?
    Don't feel too bad about it. The fact that fascism lurks within each of us (rulers included) is the reason that centralization is bad.

    I don't know if that's optimistic or pessimistic.

  4. - Top - End - #184
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Wikipedia Article Deletion

    One can argue that Orwell thought exactly of that,

    think of the children from the book, if their not a match up for lititle brother who only has power in relation to being little brother...

    as for the metaperson talk , thats great and all. But if at the end of the day your anaylsis says shut up and stop crying, (which i think it does) it seems it stops being a critical anylsis and starts being an apologist shove to get over it.

    quite frankly no one needs to be pushed anywhere and if nothing else i thank the people who have been posting here for giving me quick and easy and relevent links to read about wiki.

    Why do i see a bunker and a luger in jimbo's future

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  5. - Top - End - #185
    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Wikipedia Article Deletion

    Quote Originally Posted by pclips View Post
    You know the aspect of Wikipedia which Orwell did not anticipate?

    1984 was a warning against the use of technology by a central authority, right? But Wikipedia shows that if you put the ability to censor and hide and destroy truthful information into the hands of everybody, you get thousands of Little Brothers volunteering to become mini-fascists within their categories of agenda/interest.

    Why does the idea that fascism lurks within each of us scare me more than the centralization of absolute power?

    Hey, I love Erfworld and OOTS, and think they certainly deserve mention in Wikipedia. I also don't really understand the animus against 'Fancruft' as the Wikieditors put it-- if someone wants to put in the work, as long as the quality and accuracy is maintained, doesn't seem like a big deal to me, and can be very useful, if I happen to be interested in the topic.

    But Wiki-philosophy and disclaimers aside, try to keep a touch of perspective, folks, and avoid approaching Godwin. These are small-minded, Napoleon-complex ridden, annoying folks removing free advertising and information for a Webcomic. The first step down the road to fascism it is not.

    PS- Oh, and keep up the good Erfworld work.
    "I was working on a case. It had to be a case, because I couldn't afford a desk. Then I saw her. This tall blond lady. She must have been tall because I was on the third floor. She rolled her deep blue eyes towards me. I picked them up and rolled them back. We kissed. She screamed. I took the cigarette from my mouth and kissed her again."

  6. - Top - End - #186
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Shhalahr Windrider's Avatar

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    Default Re: Wikipedia Article Deletion

    Quote Originally Posted by pclips View Post
    Why does the idea that fascism lurks within each of us scare me more than the centralization of absolute power?
    I agree with Telonius that the potential for such viewpoints and impulses to exist within everyone speaks loudly against centralization of power. I also see why the existance of such impulses on the individual scale can be more frightening. It is generally agreed upon that such power plays are destructive and evil. Most people strive not to be destructive and evil. They wish to be the opposite. However, once you realize such evil could very well be in yourself, even through such a simple observation of the evil as a universal constant, you feel frightened to yourself. You feel you are supposed to be above such things. Other people do the evil. You fight against it, you don't participate in it. When the evil is being perpetrated by a large centralized authority, you can identify the evil in this external force. You are no longer threatened by yourself. Your identity as a good person is safe.

    Additionally, you have to realize that you can always fight a large, monolithic, easily identifiable authority. The same cannot easily be said of human nature.


    Regarding Orwell's works and what they predict:

    I never read 1984. I will one day, but, as of now, I have yet to do so. The only Orwell with which I am familiar is Animal Farm, which is why I picked up on the "some are more equal than others" theme. I am certainly not familiar with how well they might have reflected universal impulses creating tyranny through popular concensus.

    However, I do believe Ray Bradbury has picked up on such themes, particularly in Farenheit 451, though it also features as a theme in The Martian Chronicles. I have always been more concerned with a Bradburian future than Orwellian. (Of course, my lack of familiarity with Orwell compared to Bradbury may have something to do with that.) Unfortunately, now and then I see something in the news that seems to confirm Bradbury only had the years in his stories wrong and everything else was right.
    The Future just ain’t what it used to be.

  7. - Top - End - #187
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Wikipedia Article Deletion

    Quote Originally Posted by pclips View Post
    You know the aspect of Wikipedia which Orwell did not anticipate?

    1984 was a warning against the use of technology by a central authority, right? But Wikipedia shows that if you put the ability to censor and hide and destroy truthful information into the hands of everybody, you get thousands of Little Brothers volunteering to become mini-fascists within their categories of agenda/interest.

    Why does the idea that fascism lurks within each of us scare me more than the centralization of absolute power?
    Actually, if I recall correctly that theme was touched on. At one point, the protagonist notices the contrasts between the posters of the brave and bold blonde haired blue eyed men going off to the war, and the fact that all the men he sees around him are short, squatting, and constantly peering in all directions, like beetles.

    What I took from that was a system like 1984 actually extracts out the non-fascists and sends them to War (1984) or bans them (Wikipedia) for not playing by their rules. It's actually a people filter/strainer.. only the most fascist and subservient get to go up the Wikipedia ladder, so it's not at all surprising that some of the most highly placed editors are the most fanatically fascist.

  8. - Top - End - #188
    Troll in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Wikipedia Article Deletion

    One would think that the creation of a wikipedia article by someone other then those directly involved with a page in question (author, creator, etc) would proof it's known well enough to be made into a wikipedia article.
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  9. - Top - End - #189
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Wikipedia Article Deletion

    Shhalahr - If you haven't, I recommend reading Orwell's 1984 and Huxley's Brave New World and possibly Brave New World Revisited (nonfiction written later, in regard to his predictions and the fact many were being realised sooner than he'd anticipated).

    Bradbury was hardly alone in seeing the negative potential of society's future. Asimov, Heinlein, Huxley, Orwell and many others have had some keen insights into the best, and worst, of what we might have ahead.
    Last edited by fangthane; 2007-03-02 at 01:26 PM.
    Don't bother trying to appeal to my better nature; I don't have one.

  10. - Top - End - #190
    Halfling in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Wikipedia Article Deletion

    Did anybody else notice, though? The article has been recreated on the 14th, and is still up today.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erfworld

    And since currently, my attention span isn't high enough to come up with a dignified response to these discussions, I'll leave it at that. I have read and done reports on both 1984 and Fahrenheit 451, and I do understand the points here, though. It is understandable that when everybody has the ability to print what they believe to be the truth, it can become lost or distorted through all of the changes that exist. Still, I think it's best to leave it up to the masses, as it is still an improvement to having a small group watch over everything. After all, the one person who deleted the article in the first place has been overruled by the many who recreated the topic.
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  11. - Top - End - #191
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Shhalahr Windrider's Avatar

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    Default Re: Wikipedia Article Deletion

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruduen View Post
    After all, the one person who deleted the article in the first place has been overruled by the many who recreated the topic.
    The problem is when the reverse happens.

    The masses aren't always right.
    The Future just ain’t what it used to be.

  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Default Re: Wikipedia Article Deletion

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos7 View Post
    if at the end of the day your anaylsis says shut up and stop crying, (which i think it does) it seems it stops being a critical anylsis and starts being an apologist shove to get over it.

    quite frankly no one needs to be pushed anywhere
    I have failed to communicate my meaning to you. In fact, I went out of my way to not say the things that you think I said because they're disrespectful and violate boundaries.

    If I had to summarize myself as briefly as possible, it would be like this: "I agree with your perception that their actions are unfair and hurtful. I empathize with the feelings of anger that you've expressed. I wouldn't presume to speak for you personally, of course; if you think that you need them, no one else could possibly be in a position to contradict that. I disagree with the perception that we as a community need them. I think that we want them as a means to fulfill needs that can be fulfilled other ways too. I also think that it would be quite useless for us to attempt to control them; in fact, I think that the crux of the problem is that they're not even in control of themselves. Since I don't see anything productive for me to do and I have only the most casual curiosity on the topic, this post has fulfilled my quota of interest in it. May you find the satisfaction that you seek."

  13. - Top - End - #193
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Shhalahr Windrider's Avatar

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    Default Re: Wikipedia Article Deletion

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin View Post
    For those not actively following that thread but interested in the subject nonetheless: it appears Jimbo Wales had now asked EssJay to resign.

    Wikinews Article: http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Jimmy_Wa...istent_degrees

    Probably best to discuss that particular detail in the thread linked to in the quote above. Y'know, to keep our subjects straight.
    The Future just ain’t what it used to be.

  14. - Top - End - #194
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Wikipedia Article Deletion

    Hey, if any of you folks are still adding to the Erfworld article, that is great, but remember to limit how much you add :) the wiki article is supposed to be an informative basic overview of the subject, not the synopsis of all things Erf... you don't really need to talk about something just because it was funny in a comic (eg. that stanley's warlords have had targets as insignia). For those things we have this site... and the comic. Just a reminder... I will keep monitoring it and helpin out as I am getting kinda good at this stuff.
    "River" cancels eat: Food is problematic.

  15. - Top - End - #195
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    Default Re: Wikipedia Article Deletion

    Someone that has a wiki account please change this, whenever I read it, it makes me cringe.
    Currently, it reads as this:
    "Erfworld begins with a minor overview of its creation. It then skips ahead to the Battle of Warchalking, where the army of Stanley the Plaid is defeated[citation needed]. Meanwhile, Prince Ansom and Jillian Zamussels plan their final assault on Gobwin Knob. Jillian is later captured.
    The following day, Wanda summons in Parson Gotti, a human from the "Real World". Parson is made the warlord to defend Gobwin Knob, with the title "Lord Hamster".
    Jillian is captured and tortured by Wanda."
    Red and italicized are from my emphasis.
    The last sentence implies Jillian being captured yet again. It should read more like "The captive Jillian is then tortured by Wanda"
    Not quite sure why it bugs me so much, but it does.
    Last edited by Logic; 2007-03-06 at 08:10 AM.
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  16. - Top - End - #196
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    Default Re: Wikipedia Article Discussion

    You don't have to have an account to edit it yourself, you know...
    "Do you have a headache spell?"
    "Yes! Or... To cure one? No. If I had that, I would never stop casting it."


  17. - Top - End - #197
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Shhalahr Windrider's Avatar

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    Default Re: Wikipedia Article Discussion

    You can't if your IP address has been blocked.

    EDIT:
    I just noticed that Partially Clips' Wikipedia article currently includes an image of a comic based upon this thread's subject. From the history page, that appears to be the work of one Trevor MacInnis.

    Cute, Trevor.

    Very cute.
    Last edited by Shhalahr Windrider; 2007-03-06 at 11:25 PM.
    The Future just ain’t what it used to be.

  18. - Top - End - #198
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    Default Re: Wikipedia Article Discussion

    And here we have another bit of proof that Wikipedia is pretty much worthless. I just checked Wiki to see if Erfworld still exists and it does. Not because it is notable. Not because it should be on Wiki. It is only there because the people who wanted it there had more collective time to waste on keeping it than those who didn't want it.
    "It does not do to rely too much on silent majorities... for silence is a fragile thing... One loud noise, and it's gone... A few might take the opportunity to protest, but it'll just be a voice crying in the wilderness."

  19. - Top - End - #199
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    Default Re: Wikipedia Article Discussion

    Roleplaying your nickname? Wikipedia is an encyclopedia - it is a dispenser of information for people. Ideally, you can ask it about anything at all, and find a brief summary of the subject, an extended summary of some aspects, and some links to various resources that deal with it in much greater detail.

    The article is there because it contains facts. It wasn't removed because it contains enough sacrifices on the altar of WP:N idol references to reliable outside sources. The question you need to ask is - why wouldn't anything be on Wiki?

  20. - Top - End - #200
    Colossus in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Wikipedia Article Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Maurog View Post
    Roleplaying your nickname? Wikipedia is an encyclopedia - it is a dispenser of information for people. Ideally, you can ask it about anything at all, and find a brief summary of the subject, an extended summary of some aspects, and some links to various resources that deal with it in much greater detail.
    Shame we don't live in an ideal world, really. The democratisation of information represented by Wikipedia just proves that the group with the loudest voice gets their "facts" online, even if those facts are demonstrably false.

    Don't get me wrong--if I ever need to find out about Klingon pronunciation or the history of the Star Wars universe Wikipedia would be my first port of call. I wouldn't go there for anything I deemed vital, though.

  21. - Top - End - #201
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    Default Re: Wikipedia Article Discussion

    This also may be of interest to some of you:

    What Vandalism is

    In my opinion, the use of a Speedy Delete tag on Erfworld classifies as abuse of tags... Unfortunately, I'm not bold enough to start calling an admin a vandal.

    It is indeed one of the criteria for speedy deletion that the article establish notability, BUT (and this is key) ONLY if the speedy-deletion is uncontroversial.
    Last edited by Maratanos; 2007-03-11 at 01:39 PM.
    Wait. I think I just failed a spot check. Really? I don't see anything. Exactly.
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