Toy Story Mafia: Back from hiatus 8/9

[Saposhiente]

I'm pointing out the assumptions that were made, so that we can properly debate their accuracy.
How does the existence of a baner stack up against all of those games? It's pretty clear that the all-vanilla games he did aren't good comparisons.
I also believe that small games are worthy of comparison.

[Meta]

So we're probably looking at more than one antagonist team then. It does seem a little off to me that it looks like we have at least one and probably more duplicated roles (judging by two people having the same oddly specific win conditions) but no seer. I suppose it would make "broken" a more relevant condition.

Edit: a word.

[Zack]

I'm pointing out the assumptions that were made, so that we can properly debate their accuracy.
How does the existence of a baner stack up against all of those games? It's pretty clear that the all-vanilla games he did aren't good comparisons.
I also believe that small games are worthy of comparison.

Baner is just a more powerful doctor, which is a completely different role. There is not a guilty/innocent type cop in this game, I guarantee it. ATPG hates them, and he never puts them in his games. Just because he's played here for a few months doesn't mean he will completely abandon his previous style of hosting in favor of the typical setups you see on this site. He may adapt, e.g. baner instead of doctor, but that's pretty minor. I'm sure there are scanners, but not ones that straight up tell you whether a person is town, mafia, neutral, third-party, or whatever.

The small games aren't really any different, and this game isn't small. If you want to look through the million small/mini games Pizza's hosted, be my guest.

[Jarema]

I suspect that in this game are either 2 anti-town factions, or 1 evil faction and not anti-town third party of significat strength (by anti-town factin I mean wolf team, or single killer, or a cult, or something else).

If there are two evil teams, I think they have like 2-3 players each. If there is one evil team, it will be 2-4 players. That is what I expect basing on earlier Pizza games.
I also think there is no innocence/guilty scanner. And if there is, he is either a fool or naive one. I think there may be a role ore ability scanner, though.

And my comments and thoughts were with this expactations in mind. If this game is like this, it makes not much sense for a mafiat to sacrifice himself in order to kill power role.
Of course, I may be wrong. But I never played mafia game with evil team bigger than 5 (not counting cults), and I only saw such a game once - but it did not count... it was my game in which ALL players were in one of four mafia teams, with the single exception of ATPG who was an innocence/guilty scanner (we call it a 'cop'). AND he hates scanners so much, that he refused to use his scanning ability in this game...

[Aventine]

So, I ask you: why are you making assumptions based on predictable setups or obvious designs?

Your entire argument is based on what he has done in the past. If we want to avoid making assumptions based on predictable setups and obvious designs then I think we should avoid making assumptions based on what he has done in the past. I mean, what could be more obvious and predictable than that?

There is not a guilty/innocent type cop in this game, I guarantee it. ATPG hates them, and he never puts them in his games.

You mean except for the games you listed where he included them? I'll accept that they were a while ago and his style may have changed, but saying ATPG never does something, after having just listed a couple instances of him doing exactly that is kinda funny.

Anyway, on the one hand you are arguing that we shouldn't expect the obvious and predictable. Then on the other hand you are saying ATPG never does X, therefore he clearly is not doing X now.

[Murska]

More importantly. Are there roles that can tell which Buzz is lying? I expect so.

[Jarema]

More importantly. Are there roles that can tell which Buzz is lying? I expect so.

I hope so. I really hope for a 'role scanner' - person who can scan other toys and see their names.

Maybe there will be also person who can determine if target player is toy or not - we have one example of human, maybe there is more of them?
maybe some of them are evil and some are not?


ok. there is possibility that there is guilty/innocent cop in this game, but only if there are, at the same time: (a) alpha werewolf, and (b) millers (town players who scan like wolves)

[Fortuna]

Firedaemon

That was mean and uncalled for, bladescape. Provide some logic, please. (And someone else, please provide me somewhere better to put my vote.)

[Zack]

Your entire argument is based on what he has done in the past. If we want to avoid making assumptions based on predictable setups and obvious designs then I think we should avoid making assumptions based on what he has done in the past. I mean, what could be more obvious and predictable than that?



You mean except for the games you listed where he included them? I'll accept that they were a while ago and his style may have changed, but saying ATPG never does something, after having just listed a couple instances of him doing exactly that is kinda funny.

Anyway, on the one hand you are arguing that we shouldn't expect the obvious and predictable. Then on the other hand you are saying ATPG never does X, therefore he clearly is not doing X now.

He hasn't put it in a cop in over five years, and he has repeatedly stated how he dislikes the role. And it's disingenuous of you to assert that snippet means ATPG will suddenly buck every hosting trend, it means to be on the lookout for unusual roles and mechanics, at least not predictable for this forum - it's more of an introduction to his hosting style, if anything. Besides, a cop is a boring, obvious, predictable role on this forum. It's one of the very most basic power roles. "Expect the unexpected" doesn't equivocate to "expect boring, basic roles that I haven't used in half a decade." But I bet you knew that, and were just being a smartbutt.

[Legato Endless]

So we're probably looking at more than one antagonist team then. It does seem a little off to me that it looks like we have at least one and probably more duplicated roles (judging by two people having the same oddly specific win conditions) but no seer. I suppose it would make "broken" a more relevant condition.

Edit: a word.

Possibly a doozy of a third party. I'm synthesizing with a hell of a lot less than our recent immigrants, but based off the Dinner Party and the archive binge I just did of Fall of the Order, Pizza is not averse to high risk high reward individual factions. Players who are completely screwed if detected…but wield powers beyond the ken of the town or mafia in proportion to them.

That was mean and uncalled for, bladescape. Provide some logic, please. (And someone else, please provide me somewhere better to put my vote.)

*nudge*

The night phase isn't over…

[Fortuna]

Nonsense!

Piffle!

Poppycock!

*hides*

[Saposhiente]

Zack, if Buzz is the Baner and there is no Seer, what do you think is a probable role for Woody?

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(judging by two people having the same oddly specific win conditions)

If you're referring to Murska+TBFProgrammer, no they didn't. They just both mentioned Buzz.

[Zack]

Zack, if Buzz is the Baner and there is no Seer, what do you think is a probable role for Woody?

Vigilante, or a more limited cop (like a tracker or watcher). Or roleblocker. Who knows? There are plenty of abilities besides cop.

[Ionbound]

Vigilante, or a more limited cop (like a tracker or watcher). Or roleblocker. Who knows? There are plenty of abilities besides cop.

Just curious, how sure are you that there is no seer? Like, give me a percentage or something.

[Jarema]

Just curious, how sure are you that there is no seer? Like, give me a percentage or something.

seer, as in '100% accurate innocence vs. guilt scanner'?
I am 99.9% sure there is not such a role. If I am mistaken, I will change my mental image of ATPG.

seer, as in 'innocence vs. guilt scanner, who can be screwed by other roles, like framer or alpha, or who is in fact a fool'?
For me, there is like 50% chance there is such a role.

[Aventine]

He hasn't put it in a cop in over five years, and he has repeatedly stated how he dislikes the role. And it's disingenuous of you to assert that snippet means ATPG will suddenly buck every hosting trend...

It's disingenuous of me to point out that a quote by ATPG saying he avoids "predictable setups or obvious designs" and further that we should "expect the unexpected" means that we should be careful assuming that ATPG will do what could be reasonably expected from him? That predicting his choice of setup and design based on obvious analysis of his past behavior might not be wise? You read a quote saying to expect the unexpected and somehow interpret it as "expect the same thing I always do"?

it's more of an introduction to his hosting style, if anything.

Ok, but let's take a step back and look at the entire quote:

The narrator Askthepizzaguy has a track record of making things difficult on the town/village team by avoiding predictable setups or obvious designs.

The italics are mine. If the point is to make things more difficult for town/village by being unpredictable (which is how I read that, at least) then how exactly does being completely predictable make sense? He isn't saying "I do things differently than you guys may be used to, fair warning" he is saying "I like to be unpredictable to make the game more interesting and fun."

These setups do not unfairly favor the mafia/werewolf team, but they generally mean you need to catch them by your own skills based on cases built by merit, as opposed to mafia/wolves being caught by playing guess the narrator or otherwise attempting to break the game.

Oh, look at that (Italics mine again). So yes, it is an introduction to his hosting style. And a point that he though worthy of making explicit note of is that he designs things to make "guess the narrator" not work. And yet you insist that your "guess the narrator" reasoning is flawless.

Besides, a cop is a boring, obvious, predictable role on this forum. It's one of the very most basic power roles. "Expect the unexpected" doesn't equivocate to "expect boring, basic roles that I haven't used in half a decade." But I bet you knew that, and were just being a smartbutt.

But "expect the unexpected" does (shockingly) generally mean that we should expect the unexpected. You know, instead of the expected? Oh and are you really going to call me a smartass while being a huge one yourself?

[Saposhiente]

Aventine, take into account how different people have different expectations. For most people in this game, the expectation is to have a Seer.

[Zack]

What Jarrema said, basically. If there is a cop, which I doubt, there will definitely be limitations and ambiguity.

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Aventine, take into account how different people have different expectations. For most people in this game, the expectation is to have a Seer.

Yep. That line is addressed to members of this forum, not people who have been playing his games for years.

I'm also interested in the logical steps here:

1. "The narrator Askthepizzaguy has a track record of making things difficult on the town/village team"

2. ???

3. This game has a seer, the single most beneficial role to the town/village team. How difficult!

[Aventine]

Aventine, take into account how different people have different expectations. For most people in this game, the expectation is to have a Seer.

Fine, but he is taking a quote saying to expect the unexpected and trying to use it to justify his argument that ATPG will do exactly what he always does. Regardless of whether or not there is a seer that is bad logic. If he had simply said that games here usually have a seer, so we should expect there to not be one, that would make sense. Bringing in a bunch of evidence based on past ATPG games to show that he "never" uses a seer, then trying to argue that "expect the unexpected" means that we should expect ATPG to follow that usual pattern makes no sense.

EDIT:

I'm also interested in the logical steps here:
1. "The narrator Askthepizzaguy has a track record of making things difficult on the town/village team"
2. ???
3. This game has a seer, the single most beneficial role to the town/village team. How difficult!

I never said I think there is a seer. I said I think your argument for there not being a seer is faulty. If you can find a single quote from me contradicting that I will concede the argument. But for now it feels like you are avoiding my argument by trying to counter something I never claimed. I believe you mentioned strawmen a while earlier?

[Zack]

Fine, but he is taking a quote saying to expect the unexpected and trying to use it to justify his argument that ATPG will do exactly what he always does. Regardless of whether or not there is a seer that is bad logic. If he had simply said that games here usually have a seer, so we should expect there to not be one, that would make sense. Bringing in a bunch of evidence based on past ATPG games to show that he "never" uses a seer, then trying to argue that "expect the unexpected" means that we should expect ATPG to follow that usual pattern makes no sense.

EDIT:


I never said I think there is a seer. I said I think your argument for there not being a seer is faulty. If you can find a single quote from me contradicting that I will concede the argument. But for now it feels like you are avoiding my argument by trying to counter something I never claimed. I believe you mentioned strawmen a while earlier?

Okay, so to be clear - this whole thing was just you being pedantic?

[Saposhiente]

Pedantic is a loaded word, and I don't think it's accurate here.

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(He said, pedantically)

[Zack]

Pedantic is a loaded word, and I don't think it's accurate here.

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(He said, pedantically)

What else would you call someone who spends that much effort quibbling over semantics?

[Saposhiente]

Also it seems that whenever you doublepost and it's automerged, if you're subscribed with instant email notifications it's reverted to control panel only, so watch out for that.

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What else would you call someone who spends that much effort quibbling semantics?

I say he's not quibbling semantics; I say he's attacking the logical connection in a lesser part of your argument.

[mangosta71]

3. This game has a seer, the single most beneficial role to the town/village team. How difficult!

In a "no PM" game (such as this one), the seer is not nearly as beneficial because s/he can't build a network. I consider that to be a pretty big limitation. My question to those of you that know him, is that a big enough limitation that ATPG might have put one in this game?

[Saposhiente]

No PMs is standard on many forums. Even without them, Seer is the most powerful standard role.

[Fortuna]

No PMs is standard on many forums. Even without them, Seer is the most powerful standard role.

Between no PMs, cover roles, and naive roles, I'd be inclined to say that a baner is more use than a seer in this game. The seer can't start a network and can't be sure of their scry results even if there aren't any roles that specifically fool seers - which is a big assumption. The seer also can't necessarily be trusted when giving town their (uncertain) results, because cover roles are a thing, and even if their results are verified to be honest they can still be wrong.

Explain to me again how the seer is the best role?

[Meta]

If you're referring to Murska+TBFProgrammer, no they didn't. They just both mentioned Buzz.

Elemental and Murska.

I could see a limited seer that reveals only alignment, but given the high chance of a third party, it may be even more specific. Given how alignments are only revealed on non-broken lynches, I could see the 'seer' only learning something from broken or non-broken.

After reading what Legato mentioned about powerful roles in past games, I think one of the third party members (or just a wolf) could be Sid. He would make sense as a bulletproof serial killer if Duck is to be believed and from what I remember of the movie. He's mentioned in my character bio. NOT my secondary win condition, so it's a little more shaky, but his name is bolded. If we see more than one player consistently dropping dead each night, that'd be my guess. I suppose it would actually be more fitting if he broke them, though.

[Saposhiente]

Between no PMs, cover roles, and naive roles, I'd be inclined to say that a baner is more use than a seer in this game. The seer can't start a network and can't be sure of their scry results even if there aren't any roles that specifically fool seers - which is a big assumption. The seer also can't necessarily be trusted when giving town their (uncertain) results, because cover roles are a thing, and even if their results are verified to be honest they can still be wrong.

Explain to me again how the seer is the best role?

Because you get fairly solid information, and that's at a premium. Baner usually doesn't actually save anyone more than once per game; their main use is as a passive discouragement from killing an outed Seer. Because of Baner's power level, unless there's a role more powerful than him (like the Seer) he's not often much better than a Bulletproof.

[Fortuna]

Because you get fairly solid information, and that's at a premium. Baner usually doesn't actually save anyone more than once per game; their main use is as a passive discouragement from killing an outed Seer. Because of Baner's power level, unless there's a role more powerful than him (like the Seer) he's not often much better than a Bulletproof.

Fairly solid, perhaps, but it's by no means certain even if there is exactly one seer who is not naive and no roles interfere with scries, because we can't know that.

[Saposhiente]

Don't rush for your certainty blanket. It's a lot smaller than you think it is, and it can't protect you.

In other words, just because something is uncertain doesn't mean it's not extremely useful.