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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by lt_murgen View Post
    If he was made of snow, and got a bit melty, that would lower the friction and make the box easier to slide.
    Wait, someone is still pushing that? OK: MitD cannot be a giant snowman, because giant snowmen are not strong enough, cannot teleport people, and cannot be exhibited in a circus as an unknowable "IT" that no-one ever recognises. Also, if you wet wood, it doesn't become any easier to push - it just soaks the water, and becomes heavier.

    GW
    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2014-08-15 at 08:50 PM.
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Wait, someone is still pushing that? OK: MitD cannot be a giant snowman, because giant snowmen are not strong enough, cannot teleport people, and cannot be exhibited in a circus as an unknowable "IT" that no-one ever recognises.
    Are there D&D stats for giant snowmen anywhere, or is just based off that image of OOTS fighting one? If the later, I would be unsurprised if it would have the requisite strength of 30+ (huge creatures typically have a strength of 27-33 according to the MM, gargantuan ones, 30-40).

    Making people feel sick and all is a very valid point, and if it was large enough to be strong enough for the tower scene, it would be too large to be the MitD (we can compare the snowman's size to Belkar's, and the MitD's size under the umbrella to Belkar's, they are nowhere similar), and the snowman would weigh to much for Redcloak to push.

    I believe it was suggested that the hat grants wishes (not sure how that idea came about), to explain the escape.

  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by rweird View Post
    I believe it was suggested that the hat grants wishes (not sure how that idea came about), to explain the escape.
    "He dug deep to find powers...". That discounts hats, rings, magical lamps and all other means of external magic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    "He dug deep to find powers...". That discounts hats, rings, magical lamps and all other means of external magic.

    GW
    Well, unless he literally dug deep within himself to find a hat/ring/lamp that he didn't know was in there.
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  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    "He dug deep to find powers...". That discounts hats, rings, magical lamps and all other means of external magic.

    GW
    All right, devil's advocate time:

    If the hat is like the hat that animated Frosty the Snowman (kind of what I got from the suggestion), especially with Elan saying "shoot the hat," I would argue that the hat is not a normal magical item, but possesses some sort of intelligence, and is the animating force of the snowman, and is the actual spirit, while the snow forms the body (Fiend of Possession-ish perhaps), and the hat digs into its innate magical abilities to cause the escape.

    Then again, this would be something Rich made up, and I believe the image is from the Kickstarter, so unless we have evidence of this snowman being created prior to strip 100, for something other than OOTS, I think it would violate the fine line.

  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Snowman doesn't have feet with which to stomp with.

  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bongos View Post
    Snowman doesn't have feet with which to stomp with.
    Frosty did.

    However, I think the "unrecognizable" issue is a deal-breaker.

  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Unless the circus was in a jungle / desert or other areas where people are not familiar with snow...
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  9. - Top - End - #129
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, if you wet wood, it doesn't become any easier to push - it just soaks the water, and becomes heavier.

    GW
    There must have been some WD-40 in that old silk hat they found...

  10. - Top - End - #130
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by lt_murgen View Post
    Unless the circus was in a jungle / desert or other areas where people are not familiar with snow...
    It didn't really seem like it. It's kind of hard to tell without the color, but it seems to be a fairly temperate climate.


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  11. - Top - End - #131
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    I'd guess Zodar, but that would just to be cute,

    In all honesty, some sort of cool iconic monster makes more sense.

  12. - Top - End - #132
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by Seraph1 View Post
    I'd guess Zodar, but that would just to be cute,
    Zodar can't explain the circus scene without invoking some non-canonical looks. A guy in black armour does not make for a riveting show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seraph1 View Post
    In all honesty, some sort of cool iconic monster makes more sense.
    So I have been told, way too many times to be counted. And yet, neither is a list of "cool iconic" monsters forthcoming from such declarations, nor is there a rational reason why it would "make more sense".

    I should add, for the record, that I have been informed that the Zodar is iconic, although the particular person that declared it so did not think to tell me if it is also cool.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  13. - Top - End - #133
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    I find it funny that, in SoD, Redcloak's sarcastic reply to the MitD is "because I wear black armor." Define my not evidence towards Zodar, but still sort of amusing.


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  14. - Top - End - #134
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Maybe it's a Zodar with no armor, and they happen to be really ugly =)

  15. - Top - End - #135
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by Seraph1 View Post
    Maybe it's a Zodar with no armor, and they happen to be really ugly =)
    Or maybe it's a really strong, wish-granting centaur. But unless you can find a reference to this armour-less zodar predating #100, it would fall under the "invented by Rich" category.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  16. - Top - End - #136
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    If it was unguessed, it wouldn't have its own entry under Proposed Creatures (with a list of pros and cons, not just a brief description of why it would be proposed and why it doesn't really fit).

  17. - Top - End - #137
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    One idea that hasn't been guessed.

    1. Worm that walks, it would explain the spell casting, disgust upon viewing, damage reduction, and it's the right size. (Earthquake, etc could be latent sorcerer abilities). Actually MANY occurrences could be explained by latent sorcerer abilities from the base creature that it may not be aware it has.

    Example, telekinesis punched miko and the horse

    Earthquake, self explanatory

    Escape. Self explanatory.

    Unidentifiable to a wizard? Very exotic and it's a very hard check to identify.
    Last edited by Seraph1; 2014-08-19 at 10:25 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #138
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by Seraph1 View Post
    Two other ideas might be

    1. Worm that walks, it would explain the spell casting, disgust upon viewing, damage reduction. (Earthquake, etc could be latent sorcerer abilities). Actually MANY occurrences could be explained by latent sorcerer abilities from the base creature.

    Example, telekinesis punched miko and the horse

    Earthquake, self explanatory

    Escape. Self explanatory.

    Unidentifiable to a wizard? Very exotic and it's a very hard check to identify.
    Worm that walks is a template, and as such falls under the same problems all other templates do (see section 2d - Templated/Mixed lineage Creature). Giving a creature sorcerer levels falls under 2d - Class levels.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  19. - Top - End - #139
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    True, maybe I'm stretching too far

    I feel like this fits, but it's just too complex to be correct.

    1. I think aberrations can be mind controlled, am I incorrect on that? I didn't think they had immune to mind affecting as a subtype, but my memory may be hazy.

    2. It is possible that this creature was created and it didn't have memories of his spell casting abilities and that they simply come out latently. (Worms that walk can be created both via ritual and via natural occurrence, all you need is the corpse of a spell caster)

  20. - Top - End - #140
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by Seraph1 View Post
    True, maybe I'm stretching too far

    I feel like this fits, but it's just too complex to be correct.

    1. I think aberrations can be mind controlled, am I incorrect on that? I didn't think they had immune to mind affecting as a subtype, but my memory may be hazy.

    2. It is possible that this creature was created and it didn't have memories of his spell casting abilities and that they simply come out latently. (Worms that walk can be created both via ritual and via natural occurrence, all you need is the corpse of a spell caster)
    Worms that walk, as far as I remember, are monstrous humanoids.
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  21. - Top - End - #141
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by ... View Post
    Worms that walk, as far as I remember, are monstrous humanoids.
    It's a template that turns an evil wizard into an aberration.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  22. - Top - End - #142
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by Seraph1 View Post
    True, maybe I'm stretching too far

    I feel like this fits, but it's just too complex to be correct.

    1. I think aberrations can be mind controlled, am I incorrect on that? I didn't think they had immune to mind affecting as a subtype, but my memory may be hazy.
    They aren't, although things like Dominate Person wouldn't work (Dominate Monster would). They'd have good will saves as epic level casters, and high SR (34+).

    Quote Originally Posted by Seraph1 View Post
    2. It is possible that this creature was created and it didn't have memories of his spell casting abilities and that they simply come out latently. (Worms that walk can be created both via ritual and via natural occurrence, all you need is the corpse of a spell caster)
    It would need the silent spell feat, or be able to cast a spell called "Escape" that does that. No Worm that Walks, which already has been given stats, to my knowledge, has this feat, making it a creation of Rich's.

    Also, Telekinesis is a really poor way to explain the escape, Windstriker almost certainly would weigh more than 375 pounds, making him not eligible for violent force, and instead it would be a combat maneuver (Bull Rush), which couldn't actually break the wall (unless the MitD also has levels in Fighter and is a Dungeoncrasher), and violent force would deal a maximum of 15d6 (if Milko and her armor weigh exactly 375 pounds total, and counts as a dense object), which still could only break through 5 inches of stone, rolling maximum damage, on average, perhaps 3). All that aside, it wouldn't make sense of Telekinesis to be used when the MitD wants to "hit" someone, especially if it is a cast as a spell, and even then, the MitD would have to be unaware he cast it (and I'm pretty sure it would have to be Silent as well).

    For the Earthquake, if you mean the spell, he'd have to cast Silent Earthquake, and have a way to cast Cleric or Druid spells, or spells from the Earth or Destruction domain, requiring delving even further into "custom made for this story."

  23. - Top - End - #143
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by rweird View Post
    They aren't, although things like Dominate Person wouldn't work (Dominate Monster would). They'd have good will saves as epic level casters, and high SR (34+).



    It would need the silent spell feat, or be able to cast a spell called "Escape" that does that. No Worm that Walks, which already has been given stats, to my knowledge, has this feat, making it a creation of Rich's.

    Also, Telekinesis is a really poor way to explain the escape, Windstriker almost certainly would weigh more than 375 pounds, making him not eligible for violent force, and instead it would be a combat maneuver (Bull Rush), which couldn't actually break the wall (unless the MitD also has levels in Fighter and is a Dungeoncrasher), and violent force would deal a maximum of 15d6 (if Milko and her armor weigh exactly 375 pounds total, and counts as a dense object), which still could only break through 5 inches of stone, rolling maximum damage, on average, perhaps 3). All that aside, it wouldn't make sense of Telekinesis to be used when the MitD wants to "hit" someone, especially if it is a cast as a spell, and even then, the MitD would have to be unaware he cast it (and I'm pretty sure it would have to be Silent as well).

    For the Earthquake, if you mean the spell, he'd have to cast Silent Earthquake, and have a way to cast Cleric or Druid spells, or spells from the Earth or Destruction domain, requiring delving even further into "custom made for this story."
    All really good points

  24. - Top - End - #144
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Its a template, but its also a monster in its own right. The problem is that while its got a bunch of abilities and characteristics, most of them aren't really applicable for our purposes so the whole thing boils down to a high level spellcaster that pretty weird looking. That's handy, because it gives defensible answers to 2 of the 3 tests (Circus and Escape), and the fluff could be argued as being positive (a problem with its creation is why MitD can't remember so much), and you could even argue that maybe it was a giant-race caster and its "father" is in fact itself.

    But unfortunately the fluff also fails a bunch of characteristics (sleeping? having teeth?) while also completely failing the tower test due to lack of defenses and STR. As noted, Telekinesis is a poor substitute for a metric f**kton of STR.

    Edit - As an aside, I did as thorough a review as I could manage of anything that could be considered a snowman. Ice and snow constructs, golems, plus a few other things like the "robot-girl" homebrew monster/template (which has actual potential as a concept and I think is old enough, but sadly doesn't list a monster anywhere near powerful enough) and nothing turned up. Which is too bad, because there were more monsters and rule information dedicated to it than I expected. And usually when a fishing expedition gets that kind of traction there's *something* that can at least be shoe-horned into a proposal but this time there was nothing.

    There's probably some entertainment to be had in arguing MitD is a Robot Girl who has taken 10 levels in the Arch-Golem Execution Girlfriend prestige class, gained the "Vengeance" special ability, and then died and was reincarnated into a Vengeance Titan Shell but lost his memories along the way and thus doesn't know how to work the Pyrophonic Blaster and Fusion Mega-Cannon he'd probably have mounted on his arms (and also forgot that he's actually a girl, albeit in giant robot form, so it would be relatively easy to forget) but I'm not even going to start.
    Last edited by Crusher; 2014-08-24 at 07:28 PM.
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  25. - Top - End - #145
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    I've just been rereading strip #55. If Xykon had hired Nale & co to retrieve the Talisman, wouldn't that be a pointer to the MITD being a monster from a previous edition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nale
    That is the Talisman's power, to bring all outdated monsters under the wearer's control

  26. - Top - End - #146
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    I've just been rereading strip #55. If Xykon had hired Nale & co to retrieve the Talisman, wouldn't that be a pointer to the MITD being a monster from a previous edition?
    Err... No? I don't understand where you see a connection. The talisman existed long before that scene, plot-wise, and had been used to attract those creatures to the talisman room long before the start of the strip, so if MitD was a 2nd ed creature, it would have had to be trapped in the room, not with Xykon.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Err... No? I don't understand where you see a connection. The talisman existed long before that scene, plot-wise, and had been used to attract those creatures to the talisman room long before the start of the strip, so if MitD was a 2nd ed creature, it would have had to be trapped in the room, not with Xykon.
    It had been captured long before and then was under Xykon's charm. So maybe it couldn't get trapped?

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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    I've just been rereading strip #55. If Xykon had hired Nale & co to retrieve the Talisman, wouldn't that be a pointer to the MITD being a monster from a previous edition?
    If you are trying to imply that Xykon wanted to use the Talisman to control the MitD, then I would say No, because Xykon already had a method of controlling him.


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  29. - Top - End - #149
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    It had been captured long before and then was under Xykon's charm. So maybe it couldn't get trapped?
    We don't know when all the 2nd ed edition creatures were attracted, but MitD has never been seen resisting the amulet, and yet has never been restrained in a physical way - he has always had the ability to leave the cage, as pointed out by RC. Thus, I don't see how the fact he is not in the 2nd ed room suggests he is a 2nd ed creature.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  30. - Top - End - #150
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    I've just been rereading strip #55. If Xykon had hired Nale & co to retrieve the Talisman, wouldn't that be a pointer to the MITD being a monster from a previous edition?
    Does it matter? He didn't hire the Linear Guild to retrieve the talisman; he hired them to kill the Order of the Stick. Nale said Xykon didn't even know the talisman Nale sought was in his dungeon; taking as read that Nale doesn't actually know what Xykon does or doesn't know, that still rules out Xykon having mentioned the talisman to Nale.
    Last edited by Kish; 2014-08-27 at 12:44 PM.

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