MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

[GM_3826]

Godzilla is copyrighted, and as such is already listed in section 3c. I'll let our local Godzilla expert, Surfing HalfOrc, address the arguments if he/she so desires.

Yours,

Grey Wolf

[Rorrik]

The only problem I see with him being a gojira is that I can't see godzillas living in the OotS world without us knowing something about them. It seems they'd be pretty widely heard of if even a few of them reached full size. Otherwise I think it's a decent guess, copyright questions notwithstanding.

[ti'esar]

The only problem I see with him being a gojira is that I can't see godzillas living in the OotS world without us knowing something about them. It seems they'd be pretty widely heard of if even a few of them reached full size. Otherwise I think it's a decent guess, copyright questions notwithstanding.

Was there any mention of dinosaurs living on the Western Continent before Book 5?

[Rorrik]

Was there any mention of dinosaurs living on the Western Continent before Book 5?

That's a valid point. My implication was that a wizard would be expected to know of their existence in the same way they know about dragons, but that may not be a good assumption, since the trappers say they don't generally occur in the jungle. Maybe they're mostly limited to islands since godzilla is an aquatic creature.

[LordotTrinkets]

I'm not too confident how much this will provide to figuring out what MitD is, but I'm going to throw this out anyway. Is it possible that the escape scene is a teleport spell-like ability coupled with a meta-magic feat? I haven't the time to check now, but I'd find it perfectly conceivable that there's SOME source book before 2004 with a feat that allows a caster to be exempted by the effects of the spell he cast.

Pros.: Assuming there was such a feat made before strip #100, this might just make a few previously unqualified monsters candid again.

Cons: If it's a nonexistent feat, you'd likely need to tease the meaning of the 'fine line' clause to make the hypothesis work. Such a feat being a homebrew.

[Throknor]

I'm not too confident how much this will provide to figuring out what MitD is, but I'm going to throw this out anyway. Is it possible that the escape scene is a teleport spell-like ability coupled with a meta-magic feat? I haven't the time to check now, but I'd find it perfectly conceivable that there's SOME source book before 2004 with a feat that allows a caster to be exempted by the effects of the spell he cast.

Pros.: Assuming there was such a feat made before strip #100, this might just make a few previously unqualified monsters candid again.

Cons: If it's a nonexistent feat, you'd likely need to tease the meaning of the 'fine line' clause to make the hypothesis work. Such a feat being a homebrew.

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Feats don't help narrow the field, only expand it. Enough feats have been added to potted plants (I think) to make them the MITD. The generally accepted idea is that feats break the 'someone will guess' comment and render any clues worthless, as anything could theoretically be layered with feats to meet what the MITD is shown to do.

So while no one would say "don't propose something that needs a feat", such submissions would be legitimately considered and discussed. They just aren't likely to rise to Best Fit status.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Enough feats have been added to potted plants (I think) to make them the MITD.

Technically, the exercise was done with templates, rather than feats, but it's six of one, half a dozen of the other. Feats are indeed one of the listed in the augmentation section as an alternative/addition to templates. For me to add this teleport feat, though, I'd need to know what it is called, where it is from, etc.

More broadly, though, I wonder how much value it would add. We already have the much better "stray dimension lock" explanation, if such ability were to be needed.

So while no one would say "don't propose something that needs a feat", such submissions would be legitimately considered and discussed. They just aren't likely to rise to Best Fit status.

Generally this is true, but on the other hand, it is true that a major weakness of teleport-only creatures, even those in FBS, was the problem of why MitD stayed behind (this problem was of course not shared by Wish casting suggestions, which remain a better fit). But, as I said above, the stray dimension lock attack from V already addressed that problem quite elegantly some time back.

Grey Wolf

[Qwertystop]

Feats can't get anywhere near as much as templates - I doubt you could get to MitD with just them, no matter how many you had. In general, though, yeah - the ability to do something given the right feat only narrows the field if the feat is difficult to qualify for and the creature in question is one of the few things that can take it. Even then it's iffy, but without that you get the fact that it only opens up more options.

[LordotTrinkets]

The purpose of my suggestion wasn't to narrow the field, it was to maybe allow some monsters to be reconsidered. Basically, if a monster COULD have been MitD if it didn't have to go along with the teleport spell, this might allow that monster to qualify again.

Grey_Wolf: I read that part about "stray dimension lock", but due to the wording used it seemed like there were a lot of ifs involved. I was figuring that this might be a runner-up to that or something. I'm probably committing a Redcloakian probability fallacy though.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The purpose of my suggestion wasn't to narrow the field, it was to maybe allow some monsters to be reconsidered.

As Throknor mentioned, any monster that needs this feat to explain the escape is still going to be marked down for not being able to explain the Escape as its vanilla version. Any monster that can explain the escape without it is prima facie a better fit.

Grey_Wolf: I read that part about "stray dimension lock", but due to the wording used it seemed like there were a lot of ifs involved. I was figuring that this might be a runner-up to that or something.

There are two ifs to the stray dimension lock theory: does a dimension lock stop the casting of teleport? And, did MitD get hit by the stray dimension lock? As far as I know, we do not have answers to those questions. Your theory has instead the following: Does such feat even exist? And, when and how did MitD gain 3 HD above and beyond the base for his creature type, that he could have selected such a feat? The first one is the real killer - maybe if someone knows of such a feat, we can consider it, but as it is, it's too much in the air for my taste.

Yours,

Grey Wolf

[Jay R]

As Throknor mentioned, any monster that needs this feat to explain the escape is still going to be marked down for not being able to explain the Escape as its vanilla version. Any monster that can explain the escape without it is prima facie a better fit.

But since we still don't have any monster that fits, extending the field of search seems like a reasonable approach.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

But since we still don't have any monster that fits, extending the field of search seems like a reasonable approach.

The field of search already is "every monster". How does this add to the field? As I said, a monster will be judged on its vanilla characteristics first and foremost. A feat/template/etc. that changes a monster into a better fit fits every monster.

Grey Wolf

[ReaderAt2046]

But since we still don't have any monster that fits, extending the field of search seems like a reasonable approach.

Actually, we have several monsters that fit. They're the ones on the FBS list.

As Grey_Wolf_c usually points out every couple of dozen pages, there's no buzzer that will ring when we find the correct monster. For all we know, we found it three iterations of this thread ago and we just don't know because we haven't gotten to The Reveal yet.

[Quild]

Actually, we have several monsters that fit. They're the ones on the FBS list.

Considering the "cons" for most of them, I have troubles to understand how they fit more than some of the other ideas.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Considering the "cons" for most of them, I have troubles to understand how they fit more than some of the other ideas.

Because all other ideas have even worse cons. Most ideas struggle to explain the escape scene. Those that do explain it, tend to be more "powerfully magical, physically weak" kind of suggestion that can't explain punching horses through walls. Zodar manages those two, but then can't explain being a circus act for years.

Grey Wolf

[b_jonas]

Because all other ideas have even worse cons. Most ideas struggle to explain the escape scene. Those that do explain it, tend to be more "powerfully magical, physically weak" kind of suggestion that can't explain punching horses through walls. Zodar manages those two, but then can't explain being a circus act for years.

That's a nice summary.

[Quild]

Because all other ideas have even worse cons. Most ideas struggle to explain the escape scene. Those that do explain it, tend to be more "powerfully magical, physically weak" kind of suggestion that can't explain punching horses through walls. Zodar manages those two, but then can't explain being a circus act for years.

Grey Wolf

Most of the FBS ideas struggles to explain some FBS.

ATB for instance, lacks charisma, have size and alignment issues, has decent AC but no DR.

[littlebum2002]

Or, my favorite, the Aboleth Mage is "almost FBS" even though it has "almost" the right amount of eyes and they're "almost" in the right direction.

It seems like a relatively simple thing to do, set a stat block for a creature then find something that matches that statblock. But, as SEVEN previous iterations of this thread have proven, it's a lot easier to say than do.

[Quild]

Or, my favorite, the Aboleth Mage is "almost FBS" even though it has "almost" the right amount of eyes and they're "almost" in the right direction.

It seems like a relatively simple thing to do, set a stat block for a creature then find something that matches that statblock. But, as SEVEN previous iterations of this thread have proven, it's a lot easier to say than do.

Now I feel that I have to confess that my inveigh against FBS is because Aboleth Mage isn't in those while it's also my favorite

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Most of the FBS ideas struggles to explain some FBS.

ATB for instance, lacks charisma, have size and alignment issues, has decent AC but no DR.

MitD doesn't need charisma, size is within consensus, alignment is not a problem for non-demons/angels and AC is enough. It seems your problem with the thread is that you disagree with the consensus measuring stick, not with the creatures themselves.

Aboleth used to be a FBS, but was finally removed when consensus was against it staying - and believe me, I wanted to keep it. I really liked the stew explanation.

Grey Wolf

[Ron Miel]

I've rather lost track, here. What is this FBS and ATB that everyone's talking about?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I've rather lost track, here. What is this FBS that everyone's talking about?

"Fits Big Scenes", a shorthand for "those creatures that I like to use when bringing up how a creature could explain the most relevant scenes of MitD not including the earthquake, which we can never explain with anything other than strength and explain anything else", because that is too long to type each time. You can find them in section 3a. They are a kind of showcase of the kind of creature we are looking for, something you can compare your own suggestion to, if you want, to understand what the thread has found so far.

They aren't the only possible explanations, but they are good attempts. As pointed above, they need not include everyone's favourites, and while they used to be my list of favourites by my biased measuring, that ended when we moved to consensus-based thread rules.

Edit: ATB I hope is Athasian Nightmare Beast, the first one in the FBS list (they are alphabetically ordered)

Grey Wolf

[Quild]

MitD doesn't need charisma, size is within consensus, alignment is not a problem for non-demons/angels and AC is enough. It seems your problem with the thread is that you disagree with the consensus measuring stick, not with the creatures themselves.

Aboleth used to be a FBS, but was finally removed when consensus was against it staying - and believe me, I wanted to keep it. I really liked the stew explanation.

Grey Wolf

But Charisma is used as an explanation for some ideas in order to match with the "ugly but yet beautiful". What's the explanation for Circus reactions (measuring stick 3))? Simply that some people can manage to find something ugly, beautiful?
Why has ATB Huge in "cons" if 6) means that Huge is ok (as I understand it, "no bigger than huge" can mean both : "large or smaller", or "huge or smaller")? Huge is at least 16 feets.
How does 22 AC explains the "it tickles" from Miko attacks? Are we not looking for DR?
Also regarding alignement, section 1e ends with "Since MitD has performed both good and evil acts, it is very unlikely he is an embodiment of either Good or Evil.". I do understand how it's not mandatory for him to be neutral, though.

There's no "measuring stick" about the fact that we know that MitD has two eyes and a mouth always at the same height, too bad. Hagunemnon would have been in trouble. Or maybe you can argue that each time it has been seen shapeshifting, it was in a form that doesn't reflect on what we see of it? I hardly see how someone would recognize what it is (hunters, RC, Xykon) without seeing it shapeshift.

If we're going that far-fetched, we can easily makes anything fit. Maybe it's two kobolds.


Requirements are fine, while limited. I disagree with how some creatures are said to met them and some others aren't.

@Ron Miel: Fit the Big Scenes / Athasian Nightmare Beast
@littlebum: Eyh, wasn't your favorite one Snorlax?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

But Charisma is used as an explanation for some ideas in order to match with the "ugly but yet beautiful". What's the explanation for Circus reactions (measuring stick 3))? Simply that some people can manage to find something ugly, beautiful?

Picture. Some people might find this beautiful, but with a CHA of 11, most won't. Or, alternatively, CHA11 is the average, and MitD has a higher-than-average CHA, just like Roy doesn't have STR10.

Why has ATB Huge in "cons" if 6) means that Huge is ok

Huge is sufficient to be in the MitD list. It is obviously worse, and thus a con, than large.

(as I understand it, "no bigger than huge" can mean both : "large or smaller", or "huge or smaller")?

The latter.

How does 22 AC explains the "it tickles" from Miko attacks? Are we not looking for DR?

AC 22 plus full darkness is enough to explain Miko missing all her attacks. It tickles because of the rush of air made by the katana.

There's no "measuring stick" about the fact that we know that MitD has two eyes and a mouth always at the same height, too bad.

Either no-one has proposed it or it was voted down. I can't honestly remember which one it is. That said, putting in a rule just to rule out one example strikes me as a personal vendetta, rather than an honest attempt to improve the thread, so I for one would vote against it.

Or maybe you can argue that each time it has been seen shapeshifting, it was in a form that doesn't reflect on what we see of it? I hardly see how someone would recognize what it is (hunters, RC, Xykon) without seeing it shapeshift.

In fact, that has been argued: MitD spends most of his actions maintaining his current form, which is why he is seen to be a lazy sod. It also explains why "just standing there" in the circus is hard work for him. Proteans can shapeshift into two or more creatures at once, so even when shapeshifted, it must be clear that they are neither.

If we're going that far-fetched, we can easily makes anything fit.

You fail to convince me that the protean is far fetched. Especially since you did not touch upon his fitness in any of the actual MitD scenes.

Grey Wolf

[Quild]

I have nothing against or in favor of any monster. I just agree with Jay R on the fact that nothing fits yet. And I'm here mostly focusing on ATB because it's the first one listed.

But since Rich managed to surprise us with Crystal being a kind flesh golem, I have no doubt he can surprise us with MitD. Actually this absence of doubt exists since a few year now.

It can totally be an ATB wich:
- Is smaller than most (juvenile?)
- Is yet stronger than most
- Holds everything it needs with it's psionic abilities or in it's maw (presumably by psionic abilities since it's not imparing for talking).
- Is not very long compared to his height (they're supposed to be twice as long than their height (and 20 feet tall for that matter), yet eyes are low if they keep head low)
- Is tickled by the rush of air without Miko noticing she missed leading her as usual to a wrong conclusion (that it has DR), while does not react to Belkar's attack (there mayyy be a better explanation)
- Is not "Always Chaotic Evil" (easy one, I concurr)

(less sarcasm than you may think there)

I haven't looked at this thread since years. I find some things about the stomping (stamping?), but wasn't there also something about the "magical darkness"?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

But since Rich managed to surprise us with Crystal being a kind flesh golem, I have no doubt he can surprise us with MitD. Actually this absence of doubt exists since a few year now.

Rich never promised that we could figure out what Crystal was, though.

but wasn't there also something about the "magical darkness"?

The darkness is created via localised darkness (e.g. throne room) or via magical object (umbrella). Given how Xykon describes MitD having to "leap out" (rather than, say, "turn off the darkness"), it is very unlikely it is ever generated by MitD himself. So other than acknowledging that it is magical darkness of some kind, it has little effect on this thread except insofar as all such darkness gives, IIRC, 50% chance of missing any attack.

Grey Wolf

[littlebum2002]

"Fits Big Scenes", a shorthand for "those creatures that I like to use when bringing up how a creature could explain the most relevant scenes of MitD not including the earthquake, which we can never explain with anything other than strength and explain anything else", because that is too long to type each time.

Now that we're already doing the "recap of the last 6 threads" thing going on, why doesn't the Earthquake count as a BS again? Because including it means there are no FBS monsters?

But Charisma is used as an explanation for some ideas in order to match with the "ugly but yet beautiful". What's the explanation for Circus reactions (measuring stick 3))? Simply that some people can manage to find something ugly, beautiful?

"Ugly, but yet beautiful" can mean either
A) Ugly with high Charisma
B) Beautiful with very low Charisma

So I think the only Charisma requirement would be "nothing near the middle"

@littlebum: Eyh, wasn't your favorite one Snorlax?

I do not remember. I know I had a favorite long ago. It is entirely possible it is the Snorlax, as it is certainly FBS, and I am in the minority that believes there is a good possibility of Rich using a parody of a Copyrighted work and therefore those should not be off-limits.

(I am also a huge fan of the Aboleth Mage, BTW. It would be completely awesome if it turned out to be one who's missing an eye and has a crooked neck.)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Now that we're already doing the "recap of the last 6 threads" thing going on, why doesn't the Earthquake count as a BS again? Because including it means there are not FBS monsters?

That's correct.

GW

[Keltest]

(I am also a huge fan of the Aboleth Mage, BTW. It would be completely awesome if it turned out to be one who's missing an eye and has a crooked neck.)

Wouldn't that also require it to have a mouth on what would be the side of its head if its neck was not crooked? When drinking the stew here, the stew is going beneath the eyes, similar to where a mouth would be located on a human face relative to their eyes. An Aboleth with a crooked neck would not have a mouth positioned there.

[Quild]

The darkness is created via localised darkness (e.g. throne room) or via magical object (umbrella). Given how Xykon describes MitD having to "leap out" (rather than, say, "turn off the darkness"), it is very unlikely it is ever generated by MitD himself. So other than acknowledging that it is magical darkness of some kind, it has little effect on this thread except insofar as all such darkness gives, IIRC, 50% chance of missing any attack.

Grey Wolf

Localised on what? On the MitD even if he moves? Or on a specific zone? I know the second one is possible, I'm not sure about the first one.

The fact that shadows are not drawned into the comic except if plot requires it makes me thinks that MitD can conceal in regular shadows. Or turn regular shadows in magical darkness (not sure it would explain why the light archons hiting him would remove the darkness in any case though. Would there be enough light?).

We see MitD at roughly the same position than RC/Xykon/roaches or goblins in the Dungeon of Dorukan (until the escape tunnel) and in Xykon's tower.