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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    I hope no. The MitD is a super-weapon, he should be used in the most important fights, not overexposed.
    He can never be overexposed!


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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    This actually begs an interesting question.

    Has the MitD ever said anything about clothing? That could provide a hint as to his type.
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by thereaper View Post
    This actually begs an interesting question.

    Has the MitD ever said anything about clothing? That could provide a hint as to his type.
    I don't think he has, but I could easily be forgetting something.


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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by thereaper View Post
    This actually begs an interesting question.

    Has the MitD ever said anything about clothing? That could provide a hint as to his type.
    IIRC, according to his own words on the subject of why he is not part of the trapeze act, he doesn't fit in leotards. Why that is (too fat? Claws too sharp? Skin too sharp? No legs? etc.) is anyone's guess.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    That suggests, at the very least, that he is not a small or medium humanoid.

    Of course, we guessed as much already, but if someone comes out of the woodwork with an epic humanoid creature, this might be a point against it.
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  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by thereaper View Post
    That suggests, at the very least, that he is not a small or medium humanoid.
    No, it doesn't. For example, as I said in my post, a small or medium humanoid with sharp claws would not be able to wear leotards, not when they are as clumsy as MitD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by thereaper View Post
    That suggests, at the very least, that he is not a small or medium humanoid.
    He could simply be too fat (from eating all the stew) to fit into the tight leotards they have at the circus.

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    If the wording was can't fit or doesn't fit then sharp claws don't really come into it.

    Assuming we can trust the MitD's word on it at any case.

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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    No, it doesn't. For example, as I said in my post, a small or medium humanoid with sharp claws would not be able to wear leotards, not when they are as clumsy as MitD.

    Grey Wolf
    I'm not convinced of that, simply because of the possibility of help. Unless they were particularly large.

    Either way, though, it would suggest that he isn't a small or medium humanoid with claws, at the very least.
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    The Mythic Warrior, a 3.5 base class that severs limbs and sunders armor
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  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by thereaper View Post
    Either way, though, it would suggest that he isn't a small or medium humanoid with claws, at the very least.
    No. As I said last time, it does not suggest such a thing. We don't know why he can't wear them, and there are infinite ways in which a small or medium humanoid might be unable to wear leotards, so extrapolating a single interpretation from the fact is wrong. Maybe he has the wrong shape of legs (e.g. faun, hoofed, etc.), and finds them too uncomfortable. Maybe his feet are too large. Maybe his legs are too thick. Maybe, maybe, maybe. Drawing such a broad conclusion: "MitD cannot be a small or medium humanoid because he can't wear leotards" is pushing the fact's deduction way past breaking point.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven View Post
    If the wording was can't fit or doesn't fit then sharp claws don't really come into it.

    Assuming we can trust the MitD's word on it at any case.
    The exact wording is "can't fit...probably because of all the stew I eat". Not sure why "can't" would discard claws, though - leotards meant for human use can't fit clawed feet.

    Edit2: And to forestall the expected answer, no, I do not believe we can trust MitD's given explanation that stew is to blame. It might be, but MitD tends to be wrong about this kind of thing (e.g. "The elf ate beans too" deduction in the Tower scene). I will grant you it is a plausible reason (I'm far from fat, but I doubt I could get a circus leotard on - those guys tend to have a very specific body type), but it is not the only possible one. I lean more towards "MitD stole a set of leotards, and tore them apart when trying to put them on, because he can't control his strength" explanation.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2014-07-19 at 10:33 AM.
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    No. As I said last time, it does not suggest such a thing. We don't know why he can't wear them, and there are infinite ways in which a small or medium humanoid might be unable to wear leotards, so extrapolating a single interpretation from the fact is wrong. Maybe he has the wrong shape of legs (e.g. faun, hoofed, etc.), and finds them too uncomfortable. Maybe his feet are too large. Maybe his legs are too thick. Maybe, maybe, maybe. Drawing such a broad conclusion: "MitD cannot be a small or medium humanoid because he can't wear leotards" is pushing the fact's deduction way past breaking point.

    Edit:


    The exact wording is "can't fit...probably because of all the stew I eat". Not sure why "can't" would discard claws, though - leotards meant for human use can't fit clawed feet.

    Edit2: And to forestall the expected answer, no, I do not believe we can trust MitD's given explanation that stew is to blame. It might be, but MitD tends to be wrong about this kind of thing (e.g. "The elf ate beans too" deduction in the Tower scene). I will grant you it is a plausible reason (I'm far from fat, but I doubt I could get a circus leotard on - those guys tend to have a very specific body type), but it is not the only possible one. I lean more towards "MitD stole a set of leotards, and tore them apart when trying to put them on, because he can't control his strength" explanation.

    Grey Wolf
    I think that Steve's saying is that you could still "fit" if you had sharp claws that ripped the leotards, but the claws would rip up the leotards anyways. If he can't "fit," that's different than, for example, he can't "wear" them.

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    The thing about leotards is they are I think mainly lycra=spandex=elastane. Almost one size fits all (humans).
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  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    I know I'm not suposed to "wild guess" in here but... has anyone proposed that MitD is actually a gelatinous cube with high CHA (allowing it to speak) with some sort of epic level in Psionic? (If this is an inapropriate reply, please disregard or delete it).

    It's just that... Gelatinous Cubes ARE disgusting (to me at least, specially if there are people inside being diggested), and would not fit the leotard, and are not supposed to talk, and have really high STR (AFAIK) and CAN be used as a race template! Rich didn't said we were supposed to guess only "pure" creatures, did he? If not, it could be a strange creature with a class...

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by dric_dolphin View Post
    epic level in Psion[ic]
    Variants on, "The creature in the darkness is a low-CR monster with an epic number of character levels, and the character levels are why he's so powerful" have been proposed before.

    My answer to it is always: Look at this and tell me that the creature in the darkness has been adventuring through more dungeons than the Order or Redcloak and nearly as many as Xykon.

  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by dric_dolphin View Post
    a gelatinous cube with high CHA (allowing it to speak)
    Charisma is in no way related to speech. There are plenty of high Cha monsters with limited or no speech, and plenty of low Cha monsters that can speak. Raising Charisma never grants you languages. Having a high starting Int gives you bonus languages, but you still have to physically be able to speak them...
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  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by Savannah View Post
    Charisma is in no way related to speech. There are plenty of high Cha monsters with limited or no speech, and plenty of low Cha monsters that can speak. Raising Charisma never grants you languages. Having a high starting Int gives you bonus languages, but you still have to physically be able to speak them...
    I was pretty sure I read somewhere that Cha was related to speech... specially that a creature with Cha lower than 3 is semi-sentient and incable of speaking, but I'm not sure of this. Now, regarding the "class" part, from the link Kish posted, MitD doesn't likes dungeoneering... but can't he have achieved high character classes through other means? Like, divine intervention, wishes, or DM desire?

  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by dric_dolphin View Post
    I was pretty sure I read somewhere that Cha was related to speech... specially that a creature with Cha lower than 3 is semi-sentient and incable of speaking, but I'm not sure of this. Now, regarding the "class" part, from the link Kish posted, MitD doesn't likes dungeoneering... but can't he have achieved high character classes through other means? Like, divine intervention, wishes, or DM desire?
    Nope. Less than 3 Int is unintelligent and incapable of speech. Cha only has an issue when it hits 0.
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  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by dric_dolphin View Post
    can't he have achieved high character classes through other means? Like, divine intervention, wishes, or DM desire?
    As a rule of thumb, when a creature needs 20+ levels of off-page experience gain to be anywhere close to MitD-worthy, I call that "potted plant syndrome". As I demonstrated here, anything can be made MitD-worthy with enough levels/templates/additions. But at that point, how much is left of the original base creature? And thus, how can you be sure that base, rather than anything else, is the answer?

    For levels in particular, we know that MitD was in a jungle doing nothing much for much of his life, then in a circus doing nothing much for some 20-odd years, then working as the monster in the shadows who is not allowed to do much until now. There is simply no justification for MitD having gained even a single level in his entire known history. Yes, we cannot outright discard he could have gained 20 levels off-page, but it is a hypothesis with absolutely no supporting evidence, I'm afraid.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2014-07-21 at 12:28 PM.
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  19. - Top - End - #79
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    As a rule of thumb, when a creature needs 20+ levels of off-page experience gain to be anywhere close to MitD-worthy, I call that "potted plant syndrome". As I demonstrated here, anything can be made MitD-worthy with enough levels/templates/additions. But at that point, how much is left of the original base creature? And thus, how can you be sure that base, rather than anything else, is the answer?

    For levels in particular, we know that MitD was in a jungle doing nothing much for much of his life, then in a circus doing nothing much for some 20-odd years, then working as the monster in the shadows who is not allowed to do much until now. There is simply no justification for MitD having gained even a single level in his entire known history. Yes, we cannot outright discard he could have gained 20 levels off-page, but it is a hypothesis with absolutely no supporting evidence, I'm afraid.

    Grey Wolf
    Thank you for the clarification! When I read the "potted plant" on the first post (I did read it, and even searched for my lovely Gelatinou Cube), I didn't realize that my suggestion would fall on that situation.

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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    I think I've browsed any of the various iterations of this thread maybe once or twice in the history of OOTs, but I had to say that the title of this iteration of the thread is too awesome. :P

  21. - Top - End - #81
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by pearl jam View Post
    I think I've browsed any of the various iterations of this thread maybe once or twice in the history of OOTs, but I had to say that the title of this iteration of the thread is too awesome. :P
    It's quite punny, isn't it?


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  22. - Top - End - #82
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    So I just found something. In comic #259, one of the hobgoblins says that he peeked under the shadows, and he recognized the MitD. This may mean that a regular person could see him and know what he is.
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by AsteronIronhoof View Post
    So I just found something. In comic #259, one of the hobgoblins says that he peeked under the shadows, and he recognized the MitD. This may mean that a regular person could see him and know what he is.
    However, at the circus someone said that they had never seen anything like him and the people running the circus had no idea what he was either, which seems to indicate the opposite. It may just be that the hobgoblin had additional knowledge.


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  24. - Top - End - #84
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by AsteronIronhoof View Post
    So I just found something. In comic #259, one of the hobgoblins says that he peeked under the shadows, and he recognized the MitD. This may mean that a regular person could see him and know what he is.
    He "peaked" under the shadows. He knew that was the high point of his life, and it would never be that good for him again.

    And he was right, as it turned out.

  25. - Top - End - #85
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Huh. Never noticed that typo.

    And personally, I think that that answer could easily have been a visual description - "some big tentacled purple monster" or "a buggish thing in black armor" or "more darkness" or "a dragon."

    (none of those except Zodar are intentionally based in any way on actual possibilities)
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    There is simply no justification for MitD having gained even a single level in his entire known history.
    I thought he could have gained one level for defeating the archons in Dorukan's castle. But then I looked it up and it seems no: Lantern Archons in DnD are monsters with a pretty low challenge rating, unlike the archons in nethack which are among the toughest creatures you'll see (but you don't meet any in a typical game).

    I wonder if “losing the game” against Miko and his horse counts as defeating them though. If the game was only a trick and he always intended to lose, as I suspect, then it could count as such, though there's the problem that he was ordered to have them not get away. If that was a defeat, Miko is a worthy enough challenge that the MitD might have gained a level from it unless he already had a very high effective level.

  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    If that was a defeat, Miko is a worthy enough challenge that the MitD might have gained a level from it unless he already had a very high effective level.
    We tend to assume CR 18+, likely epic, so while he may have gained some XP from it, I can't see level-16 Miko being such a challenge that it would give him a level. It might have been good enough to push him over, if he was close, though. So, fair enough, he may have gained 1 level in the entire time in the comic. Hardly the basis to assume 15+ class levels, unfortunately.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  28. - Top - End - #88
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Does he get XP for
    - causing an earthquake
    - learning Go
    - teleporting O-Chul
    - outsmarting Redcloak & Xykon
    .
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  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    He's probably got loads of roleplaying XP for all those tea parties.
    Last edited by AgentPaper; 2014-08-08 at 05:46 PM.
    Excellent avatar by Elder Tsofu.

  30. - Top - End - #90
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    Default Re: MitD VIII: Everything we know about MITD (but were afraid Tarrasque)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Miel View Post
    Does he get XP for
    - causing an earthquake
    No. Using powers to achieve nothing doesn't give you XP. Otherwise, Munchkins would never stop casting cantrips

    - learning Go
    No. If anything, that required using up skill points

    - teleporting O-Chul
    No. Using powers to achieve nothing doesn't give you XP. Otherwise, Munchkins would never stop casting cantrips

    - outsmarting Redcloak & Xykon
    Maybe, but probably not. We have seen people changing other people's minds, and it does not seem to have gained them XPs. The only non-combat XP gain was Belkars BS tearjerking tale of his difficult childhood.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

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