Wizard vs Army

[Vogonjeltz]

Would it be safe to assume that not many people here have experience with mass combat and don't necessarily realize that what works well in small encounters of the sort the usual party would encounter don't translate well?

Heh, I think there's just a very inflated idea of what a high level caster can accomplish because they are so conceptually powerful.

And those spells can be powerful, but after a certain point that power is going to waste.

What happens if the enemy just send waves of enemies in groups of 50? That's 200 groups right there. If they are spaced 2 minutes apart then all the wizard spells will have lapsed by the time the next group arrives. Wizard runs out of spells before the halfway mark (after 3 hours)

[tyckspoon]

Would it be safe to assume that not many people here have experience with mass combat and don't necessarily realize that what works well in small encounters of the sort the usual party would encounter don't translate well?

Most of the printed D&D spells just aren't that good at mass combat (although the ones that are good tend to be exceptional. Mostly weather-controlling effects. Druids are a mundane army's worst nightmare.) One of my favorites is actually Wall of Fire - it covers a good area, it's opaque so it blocks line of sight for a defensive benefit, it deals enough damage to reliably destroy cannonfodder troops, and it has a duration of Concentration + casterlevel rounds. It can literally last until you get bored of sustaining it or until your enemies get tired of burning themselves to death and start working on a different solution. Use one of the methods for having something else Concentrate for you and you can even respond to that new approach while the Wall keeps going.

Boreal Wind is also pretty good - scythes out a 20x20xLong Range corridor of damage and wind, lasts for 1 +1/2casterlevel rounds, and you can redirect where it's blowing as a move action.

What happens if the enemy just send waves of enemies in groups of 50? That's 200 groups right there. If they are spaced 2 minutes apart then all the wizard spells will have lapsed by the time the next group arrives. Wizard runs out of spells before the halfway mark (after 3 hours)

Wall of Fire, Permanency, go read a book until the enemy's casters show up to deal with this thing that their mundane soldiers are pretty much completely incapable of getting through. Various Walls + Permanency if you consider it worth the XP cost are actually pretty good for this. The thing is you're stuck on taking the offense to the army. You don't need to. You can establish a defensive position that is pretty much impossible for them to overcome and either wait for them to go away when they realize the futility or wear them down over time with those 'inefficient' killing spells.

[Rubik]

I do believe a Colossal creature can squeeze through a Gate effect at half speed.

Also, Gate in a pseudonatural celestial great wyrm gold dragon, command it to fail its save and lower any resistances, and then Dominate it.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Apocolypse: Casting time of a day, not sure if that will really help. Yeah sure, packs a punch, but a day?

Uncanny Forethought for cheesy 1 full round casting time.

Meteor Swarm: 9th level, so you only get 1+Int casts. Plus, each one has a 40 ft radius. Even assuming that the soldiers are packed shoulder to shoulder, thats still only a circle with an area of 5025(rounded down from 5026 and change) meaning that AT MOST you can hit 1005 soldiers per meteor. So max per casting is 4020 soldiers if packed tightly.

I'm with you here; meteor swarm is very meh.

Fimbulwinter: I got nothing. Still kinda confused as to how its used offensively.

Flash Frost Spell + Energy Admixture + Explosive Blast + Born of the Three Thunders = big boom, big area. Requires extensive metamagic reduction, and you'd replace your army problem with IMO a bigger problem, but it works?

Speaking of metamagic reduction, an Incantatrix solves this problem neatly. Shapechange into a Shadesteel Golem with Superior Invisibility and other hide/MS boosters to be virtually undetectable, and definitely undetectable by this army. Stack a bunch of persistent fell drain cloud of knives and auto-murder the level 10 wizard. Use Persistent Undermaster to rout the rest of the army in style, via at-will earthquakes.

[Kraken]

You wouldn't even need to use earthquake. Thanks to undermaster's stupid ability to make move earth a standard action, you could bury dozens at once, or even hundreds if they're packed tightly enough. Even when it isn't persisted, undermaster is one of the most stupidly overpowered spells in the game.

[Malroth]

Your Commoners are all living in a magnificent Mansion located on another plane.
Permanent Invisible fell animate energy substitution: (cold) wall of fire are covering each entrance to your tower.
All road signs withn 5 miles of the tower have a heightened extended Magic aura on them set to hide all magical traces and an extended Illusionary Script that gives the suggestion "My leader treats me like garbage and doesn't pay me enough, I should stab him" on anyone who sees the sign.

[Lightlawbliss]

I'm lazy, I would just make a persistent image high in the air on some dangerous plane and then make a gate to it.

[eggynack]

Snip

A lot of issues here seem to be related to casting time on spells. I don't see why that would be an issue. Did the enemy army just pop out of nowhere, and now they're charging at you with five minutes to go? It seems vaguely unlikely, especially when we're talking about a high level wizard. Thus, control weather actually would happen, because if the wizard can't figure out that an entire army is going to attack his castle ten minutes before it would actually occur, then we're talking about a particularly incompetent wizard. Seriously, you probably wouldn't even need magic to get a better lag time than that. The same likely goes for stuff like wraith piles, as while that lag time might require magic, we have magic.

Additionally, I don't see much risk from the things you're claiming risk for. Black tentacles is counterable by freedom of movement. You can keep wraiths from attacking you with something as simple as a form of invisibility, as I don't see much in the way of wraith vision modes. You're assuming something like symmetric warfare in a lot of your arguments, where the wizard won't have ways of dealing with the things that the army can't deal with. You're also assuming an odd level of foresight on the part of the army, where they have everyone equipped with alchemist's fire, bows, and gust of wind somehow. It's not like the army's limited casting resources can be everywhere on the battlefield, after all.

[Vaz]

17th level Wizards have trivially easy ways of boosting their CL.

All creatures are accessible on the Plane of Dreams, and failing that, Dragons capable of getting their own Demiplane, like any optimized wizard will be on their own Demiplane, and hence, extraplanar.

Finally like mentioned, can squeeze through the gate, and failing that Great Wyrm Steel Dragons are only huge. Once called, (provided it fails its Will Save ,, which a 17th level wizard will have maxed the DC for), dominate it. It is now yours forever and ever.

[Erik Vale]

Fun ways a wizard could kill them:
Scalding Mud... You get sucked into the ground which for some reason burns hotter than lava... Well their ashes will be good for growing things later.
Precipitate Planar Breach line: Bargain with some devils, in exchange for killing the army they get to stick in one spot, wait for you to make the breach and force as many people through as possible. The ones that survive the fight get to live on the mortal plane as long as they don't draw your attention, and for one round they have access to the prime material [you dismiss the spell afterwards]. I suppose you could bargain with some other type of outsider, like angels, but I think devils work best.

[Captnq]

Assuming I would stoop to evocation:

Iceberg - 20' area in the middle for no save 20d6. So, on top of that, I got me a wand of maximize. take 120 no save, burried in snow. Sufficate and die if you survived, bitch. Sudden widen for the hell of it. Everyone out to 120 feet gets flattened by a giant chuck of ice. Oh, and it's CRUSHING damage, not cold, so unless you took that obscure ASA that halves blunt trauma, there is no defense except having mucho HP.

Conjuration:
Ring of Fire: Sudden widen, extend metamagic rod.
Starts out a 20d6 area of lava 20' radius. every two rounds it expands 20'. It lasts for 40 rounds. So by the end of the spell, it's expanded to 440' diameter lake of lava doing 20d6 fire damage to anything inside.

Transmuter:
Fimbulwinter: Extended, Maximize rod, sudden empower, sudden widen
10 minute casting time. 40 miles around my home is plunged into eternal winter for 144 weeks. Since I maximized and empowered my die roll, I get a minimum of 30 on the effect roll, so even in the middle of the tropics in summer, I get a 22 effect. So that means I get 42" of inches of snow. Anywhere else, or any other time of year, I get 120" or 10 FEET of snow. EVERY SINGLE DAY FOR 1008 DAYS.

And since the snow never melts, it results in 1.91 MILES of snow piled up around my tower in a 40 mile circle.

So, in the 2.67 years after casting my spell, the world itself groans under the weight of the new glacier that I created, but just ONE INCH outside my 40 mile radius, the weather is just as it always was. It goes through it's seasons like nothing ever happened. They get to watch as this massive wall of ice climbs higher and higher every day into the sky. With settling we can assume the final height is a giant 1 mile thick chunk of ice. And when the spell finally ends, it will MELT. Resulting in cataclysmic enviromental changes to the entire region that will last for hundreds of years.

Do... we have to continue? Seriously. This is just silly.

[eggynack]

Seriously. This is just silly.

Pretty sure that's the point. Gotta say that I'm a fan of any plan that involves an ever-heightening glacier looming over all of mankind.

[Captnq]

Pretty sure that's the point. Gotta say that I'm a fan of any plan that involves an ever-heightening glacier looming over all of mankind.

I figure with my tower in the middle, I'll need to keep casting that Ring of fire spell about 4 times a day to keep the ice far enough back. Then the 0-level commoners are put to use shoveling off my roof.

Edit: BTW, I'm from buffalo. I've seen what 10 feet of snow in 12 days can do to a city. This is 10 feet of snow in a DAY. 5" an HOUR. Actually, Now that I think about it, I'm going to need to put up a wall of force over my tower because now even LAVA is going to buy me enough time. 80 commoners working in shifts non-stop around the clock might be able to handle it for a few days, but eventually there is no place to shovel the snow to. No invading army will survive. Hell, if they are close enough to see my tower, and they turn around and start running as soon as I start casting, they are all dead. Frozen corpses buried under a mountain of ice.

[Spuddles]

Apocolypse: Casting time of a day, not sure if that will really help. Yeah sure, packs a punch, but a day?

Meteor Swarm: 9th level, so you only get 1+Int casts. Plus, each one has a 40 ft radius. Even assuming that the soldiers are packed shoulder to shoulder, thats still only a circle with an area of 5025(rounded down from 5026 and change) meaning that AT MOST you can hit 1005 soldiers per meteor. So max per casting is 4020 soldiers if packed tightly.

Fimbulwinter: I got nothing. Still kinda confused as to how its used offensively.

what sort of army can advance on a level 17 wizard without being spotted a week away? 10,000 level 1 dudes walking to your tower is gonna be real obvious for a real long time.

[Rubik]

Pretty sure that's the point. Gotta say that I'm a fan of any plan that involves an ever-heightening glacier looming over all of mankind.

Global warming? We don't need no stinkin' global warming!

Also, Invisible, Pemanencied Symbols of Insanity and/or Death all over the place.

[Renen]

Apocolypse: Casting time of a day, not sure if that will really help. Yeah sure, packs a punch, but a day?

Meteor Swarm: 9th level, so you only get 1+Int casts. Plus, each one has a 40 ft radius. Even assuming that the soldiers are packed shoulder to shoulder, thats still only a circle with an area of 5025(rounded down from 5026 and change) meaning that AT MOST you can hit 1005 soldiers per meteor. So max per casting is 4020 soldiers if packed tightly.

Fimbulwinter: I got nothing. Still kinda confused as to how its used offensively.

If you read the link youll see. After only 10 minutes of cast timeAnd then 10 mins of wait time (if I remember correctly) area for miiiiles around you becomes a veeeeery deadly place.

Also, any criticism of casting time is irrelevant. Not only would a lvl 17 wizard know the army is coming weeks in advance, there are always time shenanigans that allow you to sit in a fast time demiplane.

[Spuddles]

are we also to expect that this army of level 1 mooks are all going to fight to the death, to the last man? summoning a single yeth hound is going to route most of the army, just via forcing thousands of saves vs fear.

summoning or calling anything with around DR 10, an AoE, and flight is going to route big chunks of the army.

unless its an army of robots.

[Renen]

Hey I know... summon gorgons! Put em up on a nice pedestal in front of enemy army. Boom! You now have a whole army of stone statues. Hmm... thats familiar...

[Erik Vale]

You could dismiss the spell before it becomes a mile high glacier of doom. It seems running it for a day should be enough to kill most wildlife and the army.

[Osiris]

Take invisible spell, the feat from Cityscape
Cast it with Prismatic Wall
Enjoy the fun as hordes of mooks drop dead of their own accord.

Or, invisible summons, ones with guttural sounds to freak the mooks out as they lumber forwards. Picture it- a man runs screaming, not knowing what he runs from. He floats into midair, as if being seized by an enormous fiendish talon. Suddenly, blood erupts everywhere, and blood drips from the mouth of the horrid creature, the Vrock. Yeah, Vrocks! Why not. Telekinesis, infinite flight, infinite major image, these guys alone would be tough, but invisible ones? We need an evil smiley.

[Renen]

You could dismiss the spell before it becomes a mile high glacier of doom. It seems running it for a day should be enough to kill most wildlife and the army.

Dismiss? Dispel you mean?
Also, the Fimbilwinter I linked is better *pout*
The whole army will die in a few rounds. No need to wait for some iffy snow buildup

Also. Why Vrocks? Because Vrocks fall, everyone dies.

[Erik Vale]

I know, I've seen it. IT's a pile of meta-magic chese of awesome.

And no, has a duration, you can dismiss it... I suppose you could dispel it if you want to waste a slot.

[Deadline]

I know, I've seen it. IT's a pile of meta-magic chese of awesome.

And no, has a duration, you can dismiss it... I suppose you could dispel it if you want to waste a slot.

You can only dismiss spells with a (D) listed as part of their duration (the (D) means it's dismissable). Otherwise, no such luck.

[Captnq]

Fun Time:

The Humble Flaming Sphere
Sculpt/Extended into a 120' x 5' line Suddened widened into 240' x 10' line.

A giant rolling flaming log that is 240' long and lasts for 40 rounds. Have it just cruise around your tower.

Create Trap:
Sculpt, Invisible, Extended, Liberally season with widen, empower and maximize.

So You create an invisible trap. You go with the Fusillade of Darts, because anything else would be stupid. Because it's sculpted, both the trigger area and the target area are the same, and lets go with a 40' cone for the hell of it. Any time anyone enters the trigger area, MOVES in the trigger area, Looks at the trigger area CROSSEYED, everyone in the trigger area gets attacked with 1d4 invisible darts at BAB +10 to hit for 1d4+1 damage. Not much, you say? it lasts for 24 hours and is a 3rd level spell. 2nd level spell for 12 hours, and if I am any worth as a wizard, I can use sculpt as a +0 level adjustment. So I can cast like... what, a hundred of these a day? With overlapping fields of fire?

Once you get within 40' of my tower and anyone moves at ALL, everyone in the 40' area gets hit with 1d4 darts. Take a 5' step, everyone within 40' gets hit with 1d4 darts. Take another step, 1d4 darts... that EACH AND EVERY NPC TAKING A 5' STEP. Ignoring the overlapping fields of fire, that is. Done properly, I could get a 80' trigger area where I estimate every approaching person will get hit with 30 darts at To Hit Roll +10, and with each hit take 7 points of damage, to everyone close enough to be in the target area, for every 5' step any one takes in the trigger area.

Now, the first example is a 2nd level spell. With some work, I bet I could have a couple dozen giant burning logs rolling around my tower. The second is a 1st level spell. Both are examples that once you get to 20th, you can do very stupid things with just about any spell. The problem is, create trap is a very reasonable spell. It was not designed to have multiple metamagic feats stacked on it taking something reasonable and turning it into an invisible machine gun nest and unlimited ammo.

[Captnq]

Dismiss? Dispel you mean?
Also, the Fimbilwinter I linked is better *pout*
The whole army will die in a few rounds. No need to wait for some iffy snow buildup

I'm inside the area of effect with 80 commoners who will turn into wights in about 6 seconds, that's why. Wights suck at shoveling snow. They have an excellent union, you see. They're all racist jerks too. Into the whole wight supremacists, and wight power. They are members of the KKG (Klu Klux GETITOFFMEGETITOFFMEGETITOFFME!).

Although Now that I think about it, a persistent extended flaming sphere sculpted into a 240' X 10' log rolling around my tower could keep the area snow free.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

You wouldn't even need to use earthquake. Thanks to undermaster's stupid ability to make move earth a standard action, you could bury dozens at once, or even hundreds if they're packed tightly enough. Even when it isn't persisted, undermaster is one of the most stupidly overpowered spells in the game.

It's only 5 rounds before persisting. It's only worth a slot if you think you're going to use the SLAs that day, or you're persisting it. It's even better if that army uses some sort of defensive fortification that can collapse and crush most of them to death.

[SinsI]

Create a few Wights. Buff them. Next day you have an army of 10,000 wights.

[One Step Two]

Upto 600 exp, and upto five spells is all I need.

Using divinations to locate the lead wizard, teleport to them. Then use a Limited Wish to -7 to his saving throw, then Dominate Person. You can use heighten spell to up the DC of the Dominate spell, and use Alter Fortune to force a re-roll.

Sure there are other factors, such as buffs they might have and the like, but you're a level 17 Wizard, spells like Eyes of the Oracle to have a free readied action, such as a single target Greater Dispell Magic to strip him of defensive magics, and so on.

In anycase, you now have control the Leader of the enemy army, fake some Diplomatic talks, forge peace, and then dismantle them with out a single life lost.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

With all the talk of severely altering weather patterns and creating a wightocalypse I think it's better to come up with a relatively clean solution (like the above). I assume the high level wizard has some reason to protect these peasant folk without necessarily relocating them, otherwise the thought experiment wouldn't be set up in this way. In that regard, we *could* take everything out in a direct fashion. Elemental Body + Shapechanging into a Solar (pumping CL a bit) means you're immune to crits and have DR 15/evil and epic, which should make you immune to mooks. At CL 22 with a greater rod of extend that lasts over 7 hours per casting, so you should be good to solo the army directly with two spells. If you're worried about the 10th level caster having the inquisition domain and a couple other dispel boosters, you can easily have higher CL and take a Ring of Enduring Arcana. Also, obviously kill the caster first, since he's the only one who could remotely threaten you.

How about a different challenge?

Spoiler

Show

Take away the level 10 caster. How low level (without loops/higher level casting access) can a wizard be to defeat the 10,000 man army without employing a scorched/frozen earth policy?

I'll start with a simple baseline:

A wizard 5/Incantatrix 4 with Ocular Spell and Persistent Spell can have DR 10/adamantine via ocular persistent stoneskin, immunity to crits with the Heart of [Element] line, powerful melee with Persistent Draconic Polymorph (cave troll at this level) and Bite of the Were[creature, in this case boar] and Greater Mighty Wallop, and basic defenses like Persistent Greater Invisibility and Persistent Greater Blink. Oh, and Persistent Fly obviously.

The chumps hit on a 20, don't crit, and have their damage reduced by 10 on a hit. The DR and fortification negate the 10,000 bows problem, and anyone approaching in melee is going to be one-shot by an invisible troll of doom. Any remaining magicians get killed first, obviously. Battlemagic Perception might be a useful pre-buff for that reason.

[torrasque666]

Third Eye Conceal breaks that though. And its relatively cheap.