Dreamscarred Press Introduces: Akashic Mysteries

[stack]

Initially yeah, but I'll take another look at it when I sit down to get the updates finished and make sure I still feel like that's necessary. It was initially meant to give you a kind of freebie Shield Master effect.

Glad it's under consideration. It would be nice for each passion to support two combat styles. Dual wielding with a light shield is pretty narrow and locks you into having very high dex for the ridiculous feat taxes the style imposes. Not getting much use out of the full plate if you qualify for improved two weapon fighting.

The feat tax is a systematic problem not a class one though. Not sure if it should be addressed in the class. Maybe a provision that you don't have to meet the dex requirement? Other wise it's light armor and agile bashing shields eating all your cash. Makes throwing shield more viable though.

You seem to be good at making lesser used mechanics work in fun ways, so I'm confident it will work out.

I wonder if wrath-vengeance should be wrath-fury, leaving the vengeance name for a future option?

[Ssalarn]

Glad it's under consideration. It would be nice for each passion to support two combat styles. Dual wielding with a light shield is pretty narrow and locks you into having very high dex for the ridiculous feat taxes the style imposes. Not getting much use out of the full plate if you qualify for improved two weapon fighting.

The feat tax is a systematic problem not a class one though. Not sure if it should be addressed in the class. Maybe a provision that you don't have to meet the dex requirement? Other wise it's light armor and agile bashing shields eating all your cash. Makes throwing shield more viable though.

You seem to be good at making lesser used mechanics work in fun ways, so I'm confident it will work out.

I wonder if wrath-vengeance should be wrath-fury, leaving the vengeance name for a future option?

Hmmm... I like the idea of Fury. Vengeance could then be saved to attach to a later Passion tree with retributive mechanics Come and Get Me / Robillard's Gambit style... I might make that change. Thanks Stack!

[PsyBomb]

I rather like the Fury title, too.

Anyway, been doing some Guru DPR sims. What I'm finding is that, at basically all points, a Guru deals MUCH more damage when they have splashed a different class. I am of course only speaking of combat builds, ones that are more sneaky (like my beloved Vanara Vayist) are usually better single-classed.

One sim involved a Gamla Sineater, an early version of which is on page 2 of this thread (it can come online as early as level 2 if you don't mind delaying Piranha Strike). Another was an Akasin, who invested one level into the Akashic Warrior archetype of Fighter.

Basically, the Guru capstone is really, really skippable, so nabbing a bonus feat or good opening class feature is usually advisable.

[JusticeZero]

.. been doing some Guru DPR sims. What I'm finding is that, at basically all points, a Guru deals MUCH more damage when they have splashed a different class..

What causes the boost in particular? Are they just inherently anemic in a way that just takes a better weapon to overcome, or is it more exotic?

[stack]

In the daevic guide, make sure to mention that wrath daevic's can have no cha dependence if they just avoid a few veils and that twin veil to get force strike knuckles with wrath claws is vital for wrath-fury natural attack builds. Half giant is nice for justice too, starting up one size on weapons before armory of the conqueror and vital strike is handy.

[PsyBomb]

What causes the boost in particular? Are they just inherently anemic in a way that just takes a better weapon to overcome, or is it more exotic?

It isn't being inherently anemic, they are pretty good on their own as long as their enemy isn't immune to subdual (think like a rogue that has a WAY easier time setting up SA). It is more that grabbing a trick somewhere pushes them over the top. For example, leading the Sineater build with Deadly Fist 2 lets you get Focused Offense, which is terrifyingly powerful in the hands of a Wis-based Melee class (and incidentally let's you dump strength completely with no drawbacks)

[stack]

Actually deadly fist gives a blade skill at one, so you might be able to get away with just a single level plus the extra blade skill feat. Great dip for any WIS build.

[PsyBomb]

Actually deadly fist gives a blade skill at one, so you might be able to get away with just a single level plus the extra blade skill feat. Great dip for any WIS build.

Yeah, but the same build wants to get Piranha Strike, which has Weapon Finesse as a prereq. You can get the Wis part online at 1 with a Guru level at 2 like that, but then PS would come at 5 instead of 3. If you start at 5 and know you are going to 20, you want either 1 or 4 levels of DF (1 lets you keep the last Improved Capacity, 4 gives the fourth iterative attack and a bit extra on Enhancement). Otherwise, 2 is a good number.

EDIT: forgot to respond to this one

In the daevic guide, make sure to mention that wrath daevic's can have no cha dependence if they just avoid a few veils and that twin veil to get force strike knuckles with wrath claws is vital for wrath-fury natural attack builds. Half giant is nice for justice too, starting up one size on weapons before armory of the conqueror and vital strike is handy.

All three Veilweaving Classes have that, actually. They can all safely dump their weaving stat without crippling themselves, given the right choices and purpose. Even a Guru can dump Wis, if he so chooses, though this will limit his combat options. The Vizier guide has one of its three builds where Int is really not used, and that one build is actually its highest theoretical DPR setup (Rapid Shot Hand Cannons with Wrist-Bound Storm Gauntlets)

[stack]

Honestly, I'm not too keen on grabbing pirhana strike, especially not early at the cost of a useless feat (weapon finesse, useless to this build). There are enough Akashic feats to fill the early levels and you already have a good source of bonus damage, especially with veils like force strike knuckles, that I would rather shore up my essence and maybe grab off list veils than worry about pirhana strike. But I'm not overly keen on taking to hit penalties on a medium bab chassis anyhow, so I wouldn't rate I that highly to begin with. I know the point is boosting your damage with chakra power, but there are other ways to boost damage with essence at lower levels, I wouldn't expect them to be capped out for a good long while, though I will admit to not having had a chance to run a build yet, sadly.

[Ssalarn]

Update coming this evening guys, including the long awaited revised Desire Passion for the Daevic! Since I know you all probably can't wait to get your hands on it until I have a chance to post it up tonight, here's a little sneak preview:

Spoiler: Desire Passion

Show

Desire: Daevas of Desire seek out servants whose lust for physical pleasures burns within them with an all-consuming ferocity. Wild hedonists, passionate lovers, men and women who make their living or spend their gold in houses of ill repute, even drug addicts and gluttons have all been known to attract the attention of daevas of this Passion. A Daevic who selects this Passion is almost never of Lawful alignment as their driving needs usually consume any consideration they might have for rules or codes.
Passion Veils: Bangles of the Jealous Seductress, Courtesan’s Cloak, Daevic Aspect, Embrace of the Old Ones, Essence of the Succubus, Heartsblood Caress, Immaculate Touch, Lover’s Tread, Waistband of the Wealthy
Skills: Bluff, Sleight of Hand, Stealth
• Starting at 3rd level, the daevic gains a particular facility for utilizing weapons that emphasize her intimate nature. She gains Weapon Focus in a single weapon from the Fighter’s Close Weapons Group. At 6th level, she gains Weapon Specialization for the chosen weapon. At 11th level she gains Greater Weapon Focus with the selected weapon, and at 16th level she gains Greater Weapon Specialization.
• At 6th level the possessing daeva begins to transform and adopt an affinity for a particular aspect of Dominion. Choose one of the following aspects:

Love: Daevics of love inevitably attract devoted followers or lovers. The Daevic gains the companionship of a paramour, a devoted companion who is two or more levels lower than yourself. The paramour should be equipped with gear appropriate for its level (see Creating NPCs). A paramour can be of any race or class. Some monstrous creatures known for mating or bonding with humanoids, such as dragons, may also make suitable paramours, but such creatures should never have a CR greater than the daevic’s level -3. The paramour does not gain experience itself, but gains a level each time the daevic does. The daevic may replace a slain paramour after 1 week of mourning by seeking out a new companion, or may replace a current paramour by cutting ties with the current one over that same period; note that a jilted lover who discovers they have been replaced may seek revenge for the slight depending on their nature.
Lust: Daevics who follow the path of lust often lack the commitment necessary to form a long term bond with a sentient being, but this makes them no less possessive of what they consider theirs. At 6th level the daevic may spend a standard action to grant either his wielded weapon the Called weapon enhancement, or his worn armor the Adhesive enhancement. At 11th level he may grant both of these abilities simultaneously, and at 16th level he may add the Spellstealing ability to his wielded weapon and the Improved Shadow ability to his armor in addition to the standard enhancements. The daevic may use this ability a number of times per day equal to his Charisma bonus (minimum 1), and its effects last for 1 hour per class level. The daevic may not have more than 1 instance of this ability active at a time, and the enhancements fade from the weapon and armor if they leave his possession for more than 1 minute.

Note that I'm not married to Lust's abilities right now.

You may notice that Desire mentions a couple new veils as well....

[Ssalarn]

So, I'm not a big fan of Lust and I'm already getting pretty lackluster feedback, so what would you guys think if we did something like this:

What if we played around with exhaustion or fatigue? Like, we give her a couple different native ways of gaining the exhausted or fatigued condition (like all-night sexcapades, or converting drug and/or poison penalties into fatigue and exhaustion), and then we give her a scaling special ability that kicks in while exhausted, like the ability to ignore damage or shunt it into a delayed pool and gain a bonus to the damage they deal equal to their pool, kind of similar to the old Bo9S Crusader?

That could also open up some room for some really interesting Barbarian/Daevic multiclass combos. Instead of rage cycling, you intentionally end your Rage and shunt damage into your delayed pool so you can drop some Hail Mary hurt on the enemy.

[PsyBomb]

So, I'm not a big fan of Lust and I'm already getting pretty lackluster feedback, so what would you guys think if we did something like this:

What if we played around with exhaustion or fatigue? Like, we give her a couple different native ways of gaining the exhausted or fatigued condition (like all-night sexcapades, or converting drug and/or poison penalties into fatigue and exhaustion), and then we give her a scaling special ability that kicks in while exhausted, like the ability to ignore damage or shunt it into a delayed pool and gain a bonus to the damage they deal equal to their pool, kind of similar to the old Bo9S Crusader?

That could also open up some room for some really interesting Barbarian/Daevic multiclass combos. Instead of rage cycling, you intentionally end your Rage and shunt damage into your delayed pool so you can drop some Hail Mary hurt on the enemy.

I think, rather than Lust, you should go for something like Avarice. This would be the one more focused on Feint and Steal (which was in the previous version of the document), and could still use the Spellstealing enchantment idea. Also happens to encompass a much different aspect of Desire, since Love and Lust can overlap in some cases.

Love's ability can also get dangerous quick, since it's basically a Leadership Cohort and suffers from needing DM fiat to keep in check. You probably want to place certain limits on it to keep your Daevic from having the bigger abuses following him around (a captive full-caster only two levels behind you will ALWAYS be powerfully relevant).

Also miss the ability to focus at range, but we do have Vizier and certain Gurus for that. Close weapon group really isn't great, either, since anyone who is weapon-focused would want to be in Justice or one of the Dominance passions. Perhaps something more skill-focused, or else emphasize the surprise aspect instead of numerical attack bonuses. I'll do something more thorough once I get to my home computer.

[Ssalarn]

I think, rather than Lust, you should go for something like Avarice. This would be the one more focused on Feint and Steal (which was in the previous version of the document), and could still use the Spellstealing enchantment idea. Also happens to encompass a much different aspect of Desire, since Love and Lust can overlap in some cases.

Love's ability can also get dangerous quick, since it's basically a Leadership Cohort and suffers from needing DM fiat to keep in check. You probably want to place certain limits on it to keep your Daevic from having the bigger abuses following him around (a captive full-caster only two levels behind you will ALWAYS be powerfully relevant).

Also miss the ability to focus at range, but we do have Vizier and certain Gurus for that. Close weapon group really isn't great, either, since anyone who is weapon-focused would want to be in Justice or one of the Dominance passions. Perhaps something more skill-focused, or else emphasize the surprise aspect instead of numerical attack bonuses. I'll do something more thorough once I get to my home computer.

Thanks for the feedback sir! I was thinking about adding a ranged option so it's "Pick A (close) or B (ranged)". Also, I am not opposed to the idea of Avarice as the option, I really like that.

[PsyBomb]

Thanks for the feedback sir! I was thinking about adding a ranged option so it's "Pick A (close) or B (ranged)". Also, I am not opposed to the idea of Avarice as the option, I really like that.

With the ability to choose either Ranged or Close, we can extrapolate some things.

Love will likely use Ranged combat, with their Paramour keeping enemies off of them. The bonus feats will help keep damage up, and they'd use their regular ones to flesh out the ranged style (not to mention Daevic Aspect (Desire) emphasizes this both in Bonus and Bind).

Avarice, therefore, should use the Close weapon group. Bonuses to Feint and Disarm (and likely against those you've succeeded in this against), removing penalties for weapon size on these checks as well. If it can also support your DC-based veils, it'll be the only one of the six that does so (and will also utilize the other part of Daevic Aspect).

Looking forward to the new Veils as well. Depending on the slot, they may affect the other classes.

[stack]

Second the concerns on leadership and definitely need something else for lust. The avarice ideas above sound promising. I had also though of gluttony, not sure on the mechanics beyond a bite attack and maybe swallow whole down the line. Stealing or eating enemies buffs would be cool. Almost becomes it's own passion now that I think about it.

Unless daevic aspect has changed, a ranged option is essential since it grants a ranged attack bonus. What other daevic will touch handcannons?

For avarice, would making the steal maneuver more useful be a good route? Dirty trick would work for something but not avarice. Dirty trick and sunder for jealousy?

Anyhow, I had desire pegged more ranged/castery than close combat, given some of the veils availible.

[Ssalarn]

Updates posted guys, including preliminary Desire Passion for the Daevic (I haven't had time to update the Lust entry yet, but just be aware that that will be changing) and two new Daevic veils, Heartsblood Caress and Lover's Tread. We had some minor adjustments made to the Dark Lord's Ring of Essence Binding, and the Chakra Power feat no longer has a Strength component in the prereqs.

The Contemplation ability of the psionic archetypes has been modified to conform more tightly with the golden rule of psionics.

In addition to Lust being updated (or possibly exchanged in its entirety for Avarice) the next update will include verbage preventing stacking Paramour and the Leadership feat.

[Anlashok]

The daevic feels kind of empty to me right now at higher levels. New Chakras and Veils are super cool, but your last class feature before your capstone shows up at level 6. Everything else is +1s to X or Y. Compare with say, Guru, who gains a new toy every 3 levels or so.

I suppose there's Blood Bond at 12, but that doesn't really change the point either.

[Ssalarn]

The daevic feels kind of empty to me right now at higher levels. New Chakras and Veils are super cool, but your last class feature before your capstone shows up at level 6. Everything else is +1s to X or Y. Compare with say, Guru, who gains a new toy every 3 levels or so.

I suppose there's Blood Bond at 12, but that doesn't really change the point either.

Duly noted. I've got you logged in the feedback spreadsheet and I'll keep an eye on that and see how the rest of the community feels. Is there anything in particular that would make you feel happier about the progression? What if we added a bonus akashic feat to the Passion bonus options? Too little?

[Anlashok]

Duly noted. I've got you logged in the feedback spreadsheet and I'll keep an eye on that and see how the rest of the community feels. Is there anything in particular that would make you feel happier about the progression? What if we added a bonus akashic feat to the Passion bonus options? Too little?

I'm not a huge fan of bonus feats but they would help fill it out. The big problem I have is just the sheer number of +1 or +2s as you progress.

Ideally (admittedly not likely) the paths themselves would get some progression. It feels to me like sort of a letdown when you hit level 6, get to pick your path's specialization... and that's the end of it.

Thematically it feels like a bit of a headscratcher too, after all the whole class is built around having this spirit bound to you and deriving your power from it, not having its abilities continue to expand past early game feels a bit odd given that.

Also even though I was complaining about stuff before level 20, I miss path based capstones.

Mind you this doesn't mean the class isn't fun. I loved playing Tyranny in my last game and I'm gonna try Love in a one-shot tomorrow. Veilweaving obviously gives the class a lot to do even when the chassis itself isn't getting a ton of new stuff.

[squiggit]

Probably late to the party but I love the Guru. The class name and the thought it was just gonna be a not-****ty Soulborn turned me off for a while, but after playing around with it... it's pretty damn awesome.

Do wish there was a more BFC themed Philosophy to play up that angle a bit more, but that doesn't really take away from how cool the class is on its own.

Or a gunslinger guru philosophy.

Also I love the sound of the Pharaoh. Just make sure however you end up conceptualizing them that Sobeks are at least blue for them.

[Psyren]

Update eh? All right, I'll revisit my earlier comments, focusing on the more important/ambiguous ones.

Excellent, it looks like many of my comments were incorporated, thanks! There are still some areas that aren't clear though:

Vizier

- Collar of Skilled Instruction: Can this be used to Aid Another In Combat?

- Cuirass of Confidence: It's still not clear whether you can use the Chest bind effect against an enemy's attack who is immune to mind-affecting. I would rule that you can't (as such an enemy would be incapable of caring about your "authority.")

- Dark Lord's Ring of Essence Binding:
- - The action to reanimate a corpse as a zombie is still not specified. (Standard?)
- - As written, the Cairn Wight from the ring bind can still create spawn. I must stress that this is a significant balance problem as any Vizier who reaches level 9 can end up with an entire army of undead at his beck and call for no cost.

- Dreamcatcher: I still think 3 rounds between saves is too short for this bind. Every minute of conversation will result in 3 saving throws, or 180 saving throws per hour!

- Gorget of the Wyrm: It's still not clear when you choose the shape of the breath weapon. (Every time you use it, or when you shape the veil?)

- Stormcaller's Band: This should have the [Air] descriptor.

-Storm Gauntlets: This should have all three descriptors of the damage it deals. ("See text" might be the easiest way to do this.)

Feats:

- Akashic Augmentation: Like Midnight Augmentation from MoI, it is not clear whether this reduction applies each time the power is augmented (more powerful), or to the total cost of the power (less powerful.) For example, if I manifest Astral Construct level IV (normally 7 PP - 1 + 2 + 2 + 2) with 1 essence invested in AA, will the total cost be 4 (1 + [2-1] + [2-1] + [2-1]), or 6 (1 + 2 + 2 + 2 -1)?

- Chakra Strike: I think this should apply to all precision damage, thus allowing things like Favored Enemy and Precise Strike to benefit from it as well as the two abilities listed, and remove the prerequisites.

- Shared Veil: Can this be used with psicrystals? If so, what chakras do they get?

[Ssalarn]

You're a champ Psyren, I'll get those addressed.


@Squiggit
I'm glad you like the Guru! Frankly, he's kind of my favorite of the three. It may be just that it's early in the morning and I'm already swamped at work, but BFC isn't clicking in my head, can you elaborate (or is it an abbreviation that is going to hit a filter)? We're already getting geared up for a follow up book that will include new Passion options, Philosophies, and Paths, so there's definitely room to explore, even if what you're looking for doesn't make it into the first book. On firearms... I'm not a big fan of firearms as they're currently executed in Pathfinder, however, I do have a project with DSP I'm hoping to start playtesting on around teh same time the Iron Gods AP releases where we'll be addressing firearms Dreamscarred-style, and that might be a great place for supplemental material like Philosophies, martial disciplines, and veils that all incorporate firearms to one degree or another.

@Anlashok
I'll be taking another look at the Daevic over the course of the next week as feedback trickles in, and I think that, if nothing else, we've got room for Passion-based capstones and maybe something that makes the Passion play a more obvious role than just what veils you have access to and what combat style you use.

[PsyBomb]

Stack has a serious point on his reasoning for the Desire Passion. The two missing themes are Ranged and Save-Based, both of which used to be Desire's big thing. A couple of bonus feats in the progression will help Daevics a LOT, but keep in mind that their miniscule Essence pool means that each of those taken will end up meaning much more than you might think, if only due to the extra essence.

On to the new veils...

Heartsblood Caress: Ehhh... could be decent, but not too much more than that. I assume you don't have to designate yourself as the object of the Lust, but this isn't clear by the way it's written. Blood Bind is pretty good, as soon as you get it this is a potential 3-round SOS as a Move action... if your opponent fails the save, and isn't immune to any of the three descriptors. The big problem is that this is Blood slot, which is ALWAYS going to be crowded. Daevic Essence is the big one, but every Daevic I make takes Twin Veil (Blood) and Shape Soulmeld (Eyes of the Hawkguard) to bind there as well. I give it an overall Orange right now, though this may change later if the class changes around it.

Lover's Tread: Bonus to the Trip maneuver is good, especially for lockdown builds. Landing them on their face with a Charm effect rider on it is also nice to have. I can see this taken in some cases, though they will usually be using polearms or Spiked Chain and so won't really use the Bluff aspect. Rated Yellow for now, though I need to experiment a bit with it. Also isn't clear if the Trip has to succeed in order to attempt a Charm, this needs clarifying.

[stack]

Does here need to be a clause about targets being immune to the unnatural lust/charm abilities of the new veils for a certain time if they make heir saves? Do they need [enchantment] tags, or is that implied by the other descriptors and he fact they mimic enchantment spells?

I like the new veils, might be powerful without any limit on repeats after saves.

Desire love daevic with desire lust paramore-"go ahead, we'll stay in, let us know how the adventure goes!"

[Psyren]

BFC = Battlefield Control

[Ssalarn]

BFC = Battlefield Control

/facepalm

I'm blaming that on the fact that I've got 30 things piled up on my desk and am slightly loopy from the pain-killers and imitrex I had to take for a skull-splitting migraine.

Desire love daevic with desire lust paramore-"go ahead, we'll stay in, let us know how the adventure goes!"

Hah!

[Psyren]

I'm right there with you man - had my wisdom teeth deleted and now I am hopped up on vicodin and percocet so I can eat. Whee!!!

[stack]

So it looks like desire has fairly good control abilities, especially for a full BAB class, but they get shut down hard by immunities to mind affecting. I propose that instead of the close weapons stuff, desire could instead grant a method to bypass these immunities, similar to how a dread gets an aura to bypass fear immunity and can take a feat to allow them to expend focus to bypass immunity mind affecting with their terrors. Maybe an aura, scaling in size, or even a swift action touch attack that allows them to bypass the immunity for CHA mod rounds, piercing kiss or some such.

Also, shouldn't desire give ride as a class skill?

[PsyBomb]

So it looks like desire has fairly good control abilities, especially for a full BAB class, but they get shut down hard by immunities to mind affecting. I propose that instead of the close weapons stuff, desire could instead grant a method to bypass these immunities, similar to how a dread gets an aura to bypass fear immunity and can take a feat to allow them to expend focus to bypass immunity mind affecting with their terrors. Maybe an aura, scaling in size, or even a swift action touch attack that allows them to bypass the immunity for CHA mod rounds, piercing kiss or some such.

Also, shouldn't desire give ride as a class skill?

Stack, that is a GENIUS idea to attach to Avarice, and would support its melee-ish theme while maintaining Caster capability. Make the Avarice have a touch attack which also applies to any Close weapon or successful Steal or Feint. This lowers immunity to Mind-Affecting. Have it also slowly increase your save DCs and give a bonus to Concentration(possibly by half Essence and equal to Essence in bond, respectively), and you're golden.

[squiggit]

BFC = Battlefield Control

This. I just noticed a lot of the generic class features involve screwing with your opponent's capabilities (chakra disruption, stunning fist, etc) and thought it might be cool to have a philosophy that expands on that. Something that focuses on using essence to hamper an opponent's flow or some sort of dirty fighting roguish thing only... akahshic. The latter I think is a woefully underutilized concept in games like this in general.

But that's just a random idea. Haven't played the daevic enough to comment on that, but having a ranged option for Lust or a save based Passion sounds good.