Dragon Age 3 II: [This Thread Title Was Deemed Inappropriate By The Chantry]

[Psyren]

Intentions might not justify actions, but they do in fact matter, at least on an emotional level to me. It's also a matter of how it's gone about. Waging war on an enemy empire, for whatever reason? It's a terrible thing, but barring severe economic or social distress on the enemy's side, it's pretty much the only way to affect change. Killing a bunch of priestesses because you want two other loosely-connected groups to fight? I just plain don't get the justification.
...
If you're going to kill a bunch of innocent people, I just think you should at least try to kill your actual enemies in the process. Seems like a bit of a waste, otherwise.

Elthina is not "loosely connected." She is Meredith's ranking officer according to Chantry hierarchy. Her abject failure to act makes her equally culpable in all of Meredith's crimes.

She is most certainly an enemy.

I mean, hell, now that I think about the situation further, all Anders had to do was wait ten minutes for Lyrium Ninja and the Corpse Brigade

Er... who?

"De facto" is a Latin(-ish) phrase meaning "of/in fact" - in other words, in the reality of the situation but not on paper or in the law. Generally the de facto ruler of anything without a ruler appointed by law or tradition is going to be the person with the most weapons.

I know what de facto means. That doesn't make it right or give me any reason to acknowledge her authority. By that logic, Andraste was wrong for wanting to oppose the Imperium because (initially) they had a bigger army.

[Avilan the Grey]

If you're going to kill a bunch of innocent people, I just think you should at least try to kill your actual enemies in the process. Seems like a bit of a waste, otherwise.

Exactly. Bomb the Templar barracks? MAYBE an act of war. Bomb innocent people not connected to the "cause"? TERRORISM.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Elthina is not "loosely connected." She is Meredith's ranking officer according to Chantry hierarchy. Her abject failure to act makes her equally culpable in all of Meredith's crimes.

She is most certainly an enemy.

You know, I'd actually forgotten that fact, largely because everyone in the game ignored that power dynamic to the point where any sufficiently politically connected and popular figure could have taken Elthina's place. Meredith sure as hell wasn't taking orders from her, or at least anything more complicated than "SIT! STAY!"

You're right, though, there was a negligent lack of use of power there. Meredith honestly should have been relieved well before Act 3 started, and I forgot that that was Elthina's responsibility simply because she never even tries.

I feel less sorry for her now, but not so much the other (non Qunari-baiting jackass) priestesses.

Er... who?

Meredith and Orsino, based on their boss forms.

I know what de facto means. That doesn't make it right or give me any reason to acknowledge her authority. By that logic, Andraste was wrong for wanting to oppose the Imperium because (initially) they had a bigger army.

The authority to have people stabbed if they disobey is still authority. It's just up to the individual whether to acknowledge it or not.

[Divayth Fyr]

You could say the same of any mage. Why not strangle them in the cradle then, or while children? Why bother with the Circle at all?

Because most of them don't end as mass-murderers sparking global wars? Most aren't even abominations.

She was never ruler of the city in any capacity. She controlled its biggest military force (the Templars) - that's it. There was no Viscount and Meredith was actively blocking all attempts to appoint one.

And yet we had already happily taken the title of Champion from her hands. A title bestowed only by a city ruler.

Exactly, zero. So let him live and atone. He can't save any lives dead.

He also can't cause any more deaths when dead. And who knows what crazy idea he might come up with if the war would went bad. Or if the mages weren't aggressive enough for his tastes. Or if he'd be overcome by Vengeance.

[Psyren]

Meredith and Orsino, based on their boss forms.

I think he already planted the bomb, and based it around Elthina's schedule. Certainly I didn't see him do anything overt to detonate it that would have allowed him to delay until Meredith + Orsino wandered into the blast radius.

Besides which, right up until Orsino lost his marbles he was the voice of reason. There was no reason to attack him before that point.

I definitely think they should have gone with their original plan of having only one or the other be the final boss depending on the path you took.

The authority to have people stabbed if they disobey is still authority. It's just up to the individual whether to acknowledge it or not.

"Might makes right?" That's not exactly a point in your favor. Any two-copper fascist can claim the same. (Not calling you one, just saying that's the same logic they would use.)

Because most of them don't end as mass-murderers sparking global wars? Most aren't even abominations.

You know, that word amuses me. Some books call shrimp an abomination.
In any event, again I point to Andraste, another "spark of global war." Also Wynne, another "abomination" who was running amok.

And yet we had already happily taken the title of Champion from her hands. A title bestowed only by a city ruler.

A title that didn't mean anything! It was like an honorary doctorate. (You know those people aren't really doctors right? )

Literally it's only purpose was a narrative excuse to let mageHawke walk around Hightown without being collared, and I can only imagine how much longer Meredith was going to let that tomfoolery continue.

He also can't cause any more deaths when dead. And who knows what crazy idea he might come up with if the war would went bad. Or if the mages weren't aggressive enough for his tastes. Or if he'd be overcome by Vengeance.

If we executed everyone we thought might go crazy, we'd be drowning in blood. And, once again, you'd probably have to start with all the mages.

He certainly wasn't crazy/dangerous while sitting down placidly, letting you execute him.

[Divayth Fyr]

Also Wynne, another "abomination" who was running amok.

I'm pretty sure she didn't bomb any buildings.

A title that didn't mean anything! It was like an honorary doctorate. (You know those people aren't really doctors right? )

Of course it doesn't - but that doesn't mean anyone can assign it (just like with those honorary doctorates).

If we executed everyone we thought might go crazy, we'd be drowning in blood. And, once again, you'd probably have to start with all the mages.

He is a terrorist that wanted to spark a war who is also responsible both directly and indirectly for the deaths of innocents. There is a slight difference between that and any other person.

He certainly wasn't crazy/dangerous while sitting down placidly, letting you execute him.

And he didn't seem that crazy a few minutes before blowing up the Chantry.

[Avilan the Grey]

Also Wynne, another "abomination" who was running amok.

Yes that is exactly the same thing. Maleficent and Tinkerbell are also equally bad.
Seriously though... what?

[Giggling Ghast]

Ultimately, I don't really care about Elthina's murder; killing an unarmed civilian was a terrible act, but she was warned repeatedly to either leave the city or take a stand. Sooner or later, Meredith would have cottoned on to the idea of arranging for her assassination and she would be dead anyway.

No, I kill Anders because he doesn't get to condemn the rest of the Circle to martyrdom for his cause and then run off to the hills to be the mage equivalent of Pancho Villa. And I don't care about executing him in combat or out of it; most criminals executed for capital crimes aren't given a chance to "fight back."

[Psyren]

Yes that is exactly the same thing. Maleficent and Tinkerbell are also equally bad.
Seriously though... what?

I'm talking about the emotional fallacy associated with that word. Judge Anders based on his actions, not merely the fact that he has a passenger.

Of course it doesn't - but that doesn't mean anyone can assign it (just like with those honorary doctorates).

But no authority comes with it.

When you offer to run the city instead of the two of them, Meredith snaps "that's not your place" and you never get to bring up the possibility again.

He is a terrorist that wanted to spark a war who is also responsible both directly and indirectly for the deaths of innocents. There is a slight difference between that and any other person.

Whereas Meredith simply wanted the freedom to kill innocents without anything as noisy as a war.

And he didn't seem that crazy a few minutes before blowing up the Chantry.

How was he crazy? What would your solution have been?

[Ajadea]

(sorry for derail)

I'm playing through Awakening, but I'm having a problem. Brought Nathaniel/Velanna/Sigrun along to the Dragonbone Wastes. I have maximum Coercion and something like 40 cunning, but I can't stop Sigrun from fighting me. She says no, the screen goes black for like 10 seconds, then it comes back and we're fighting. Yet I know it should be possible to keep her in the party, albeit at significant disapproval. So what gives? Does she need to have higher approval (hers is about 60), or is this a bug? If it is a bug, are there fixes?

[Avilan the Grey]

I'm talking about the emotional fallacy associated with that word. Judge Anders based on his actions, not merely the fact that he has a passenger.

Oh I don't consider him an Abomination. I consider him a monster.
An Abomination in the Dragon Age universe is very easily identifiable.

Spoiler

Show

[Divayth Fyr]

I'm talking about the emotional fallacy associated with that word. Judge Anders based on his actions, not merely the fact that he has a passenger.

He is a terrorist and murderer who started a war - just about anyone would say that deserves capital punishment (life sentence if they are opposed to that sort of thing).

Whereas Meredith simply wanted the freedom to kill innocents without anything as noisy as a war.

Doesn't change what he did nor how it should be judged.

How was he crazy? What would your solution have been?

Do I need to have a solution to a problem to be able to judge a proposed one as crazy? I don't buy that - just like I ignore arguments like "don't criticize unless you can do it better".

I'm playing through Awakening, but I'm having a problem. Brought Nathaniel/Velanna/Sigrun along to the Dragonbone Wastes. I have maximum Coercion and something like 40 cunning, but I can't stop Sigrun from fighting me. She says no, the screen goes black for like 10 seconds, then it comes back and we're fighting. Yet I know it should be possible to keep her in the party, albeit at significant disapproval. So what gives? Does she need to have higher approval (hers is about 60), or is this a bug? If it is a bug, are there fixes?

I don't think I've seen such a bug mentioned anywhere, so it is possible she requires higher approval.

[Math_Mage]

I'm talking about the emotional fallacy associated with that word. Judge Anders based on his actions, not merely the fact that he has a passenger.

Except that you manifestly don't want to judge Anders for his multiple murder because someone else (notably, not the people Anders murdered) was also committing heinous acts. Does not compute.

[Psyren]

He is a terrorist and murderer who started a war - just about anyone would say that deserves capital punishment (life sentence if they are opposed to that sort of thing).

And Meredith is also a terrorist and murderer. Which leaves only the war as the differentiating factor, and considering that I see the war as a good thing, that gives Anders a leg up.

Doesn't change what he did nor how it should be judged.

That's my point - who gave Hawke the right to pass that judgment? Answer - a crazy murderer.

Do I need to have a solution to a problem to be able to judge a proposed one as crazy? I don't buy that - just like I ignore arguments like "don't criticize unless you can do it better".

But if doing nothing is equally crazy then you're damned either way. May as well take the long shot.

Except that you manifestly don't want to judge Anders for his multiple murder because someone else (notably, not the people Anders murdered) was also committing heinous acts. Does not compute.

Wrong - I don't want to judge him because I have no right to do that except (a) to protect my own life or (b) prevent imminent harm to someone else. The authority of a psycho like Meredith means nothing to me.

If you want to leave him, and then fight him later inside the tower when he attacks you, that is infinitely different than simply butchering him on the sidewalk.

[Ailurus]

I'm talking about the emotional fallacy associated with that word. Judge Anders based on his actions, not merely the fact that he has a passenger.

Its not just a passenger, though. While you can easily argue that he is not really a "traditional" abomination (even when glowy eyes mode takes over, he's certainly not the twisted monstrosity other abominations are), there's simply no denying that Vengeance is at best heavily influencing him, if not controlling him entirely by the end. On multiple occasions throughout the game, the Spirit completely takes over Anders, in both conversation and combat. And if you talk to him after the bombings

On the rivalry path (emphasis mine)

Vengeance ... took me over. I couldn't stop him. Justice once told me that demons are spirits perverted by their desires. I made my friend a demon. And he did this... Kill me now before there is nothing left of me.

On the friendship path (emphasis mine)

I took a spirit into my soul and changed myself forever to achieve this .... when we merged, he ceased to be. We are one now.

While he still has moments of lucidity, in both cases he flat out says that the Spirit has irrevocably changed if not overwritten what he was before. He's not human anymore, he's something ... different.

[Rodin]

The correct thing to do would be to turn him over to the local authorities.

But...

What system of law was in place at that point in the story? The Viscount is already dead. So is the leader of the Chantry. The Mages and Templars are in the middle of a civil war. As Champion, you are the closest thing to the rule of law the city has left. The leader of the faction you side with explicitly leaves Anders' fate in your hands. Aveline, the Captain of the Guard, advises you to kill him. I think the only people who vote to let him come with you are Merrill and Isabela, the two least law-abiding party members.

On a Lawful v. Chaotic scale, it's pretty clear to me where executing Anders lands. My Hawke played it exactly that way - without a proper authority and exactly zero time to look for one, he delivered justice as best he could.

[Psyren]

Its not just a passenger, though. While you can easily argue that he is not really a "traditional" abomination (even when glowy eyes mode takes over, he's certainly not the twisted monstrosity other abominations are), there's simply no denying that Vengeance is at best heavily influencing him, if not controlling him entirely by the end. On multiple occasions throughout the game, the Spirit completely takes over Anders, in both conversation and combat. And if you talk to him after the bombings

On the rivalry path (emphasis mine)


On the friendship path (emphasis mine)


While he still has moments of lucidity, in both cases he flat out says that the Spirit has irrevocably changed if not overwritten what he was before. He's not human anymore, he's something ... different.

On the rivalry path, I agree, he is Justice's puppet. But on the friendship path, it is his choice, merely amplified by Justice. "I could no more ignore the injustice of the Circle than he could."

Aveline, the Captain of the Guard, advises you to kill him.

No, she does not. Fenris (predictably) is the only person that says this.

All Aveline says is that his belief doesn't justify what he has done. She disapproves, but does not go so far as to advocate cutting him down in the street.

On a Lawful v. Chaotic scale, it's pretty clear to me where executing Anders lands. My Hawke played it exactly that way - without a proper authority and exactly zero time to look for one, he delivered justice as best he could.

Even if there truly was no other option but to shank him in the street - which I have not ceded - Law vs. Chaos is still not Right vs. Wrong.

[Beowulf DW]

@ Psyren:

The atrocities of one monster do not lessen the atrocities of another. What Meredith was doing was horrible, but since when does that excuse the people that oppose her sinking to her level? I killed Anders because he killed innocents. I killed Meredith because she killed innocents. One acknowledged justice and accepted hi fate, and the other chose to fight. That's really the only difference between the two.

As for your comparisons with Andraste. Yes, war is hell. It harms everything it touches. Andraste likely caused numerous innocents to suffer because of the consequences of her war. However, conducting a military campaign with an opposing army and government as your target and deliberately-deliberately-killing civilians to start one are very different things.

Also, I'd like to address a point you made about not killing Anders for fear of what the spirit/demon within him might do. The thing is, if we applied that logic to all abominations, we'd never kill any of them. I think it's been well established that the best way to deal with most abominations is to kill them. Maybe the spirit returns to the Fade; maybe it's destroyed. So far, no abominations we've killed across the two games has come back for more, though. If that's what happened to those demons, I'm pretty sure it would have shown up as a side quest by now.

[Divayth Fyr]

That's my point - who gave Hawke the right to pass that judgment? Answer - a crazy murderer.

I won't stop myself from putting down a psycho just because another psycho wants to give me the right to do that.

But if doing nothing is equally crazy then you're damned either way. May as well take the long shot.

And start by making dozens of mages martyrs and having others be targeted by templars before they learn what's happening (if things went according to plan). That's a veeeeeeery long shot indeed.

No, she does not. Fenris (predictably) is the only person that says this.

Directly. What Sebastian means by saying "You know what has to be done" is rather obvious. Of course you always can argue he is not a person ;P

[Dienekes]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the concept that Hawke has no authority.

You literally spend the majority of the game investigating and bringing about justice at the tip of your blade. You get to decide who lives and who dies and why, whether they are attack or not throughout the game. Admittedly, most of these are all small potatoes compared to Anders, but you get to play judge, jury, and executioner.

Sorry, but if you're hung up on not acting as judge because you don't have the authority, how did you ever get through the game? I mean regardless of the decision made. If Meredith gives you a task, she's the authority, so if you go against her authority then you're automatically taking up a position as judge. Same with any decision you make.

And that doesn't even get to, how in the instant of Anders bombing, there actually is an authority (Meredith) who would say he should die. I mean you can choose to ignore her (which is reasonable, she is a lunatic), the other authority had just been killed, by Anders.

I mean, say you'll side with Anders. Say his actions are justified. I disagree with you, but at least I can wrap my head around the belief. But not being justified in killing him or having the authority to do so? I don't see it.

[Jayngfet]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the concept that Hawke has no authority.

The way I see it, Hawke totally has the authority to execute. He is, after all, an Amell and a noble of Kirkwall's society. He and his have the right to bear arms publically and to use them should the circumstances require it. In fact, that's kind of his duty, to protect the city at the end of a blade should the circumstances require it. That's why nobility exists as a concept and is enshrined with legal authority to begin with.

If Hawke should execute however, is another matter entirely that's not really relevant. What matters is that he can and is bound by duty to do it.

[Giggling Ghast]

Whether or not Hawke has the legal authority to execute Anders is kind of moot, considering s/he had been carrying out vigilante justice throughout the game. So did the Warden, more or less.

(sorry for derail)

I'm playing through Awakening, but I'm having a problem. Brought Nathaniel/Velanna/Sigrun along to the Dragonbone Wastes. I have maximum Coercion and something like 40 cunning, but I can't stop Sigrun from fighting me. She says no, the screen goes black for like 10 seconds, then it comes back and we're fighting. Yet I know it should be possible to keep her in the party, albeit at significant disapproval. So what gives? Does she need to have higher approval (hers is about 60), or is this a bug? If it is a bug, are there fixes?

Did you complete her personal quest? I don't know for certain if that's a prerequisite to have her side with you, but it might be.

[Psyren]

The atrocities of one monster do not lessen the atrocities of another. What Meredith was doing was horrible, but since when does that excuse the people that oppose her sinking to her level?

When you find someone who's sunk to Meredith's level (and you'll probably need a bathysphere for this,) please let me know.

As for your comparisons with Andraste. Yes, war is hell. It harms everything it touches. Andraste likely caused numerous innocents to suffer because of the consequences of her war. However, conducting a military campaign with an opposing army and government as your target and deliberately-deliberately-killing civilians to start one are very different things.

Again, I'm not condoning what he did (at least, not as far as anyone who isn't Elthina is concerned.) But after it is done, I don't see what good shanking him will do besides satisfy some animal need for petty revenge. It certainly won't bring any of those fallen innocents back. The excuse that "oh, we're stopping him from committing another tragedy" is weak and hollow. It's done, the war is on, what other tragedy could he possibly commit at that point? With him alive, you have one of the most powerful soldiers around who can win this for the mages and prevent the Circle and all its atrocities from ever coming back, and thereby prevent the next guy whose childhood friend got tranquilized from doing something similar (except in the middle of a crowded square this time, or maybe in a Chantry during the daytime when it's nice and packed.) Lose him, and you could even end up with the Circle reinstated, nice and ripe for this tragedy to repeat itself in another few decades.

TL;DR: what he did was wrong, but committing murder on top of it is just throwing bad after bad.

Also, I'd like to address a point you made about not killing Anders for fear of what the spirit/demon within him might do. The thing is, if we applied that logic to all abominations, we'd never kill any of them. I think it's been well established that the best way to deal with most abominations is to kill them. Maybe the spirit returns to the Fade; maybe it's destroyed. So far, no abominations we've killed across the two games has come back for more, though. If that's what happened to those demons, I'm pretty sure it would have shown up as a side quest by now.

For the record, I'm not seriously considering that Justice/Vengeance could have detonated or anything so dramatic for stabbing Anders. I was moreso musing on the possibility that Bioware would find a way to put him in DAI no matter what, similar to the Rachni Queen being in ME3 regardless (in some capacity.). As I said before, it was idle speculation on my part.

And start by making dozens of mages martyrs and having others be targeted by templars before they learn what's happening (if things went according to plan). That's a veeeeeeery long shot indeed.

And your alternative is... what? More lobotomies, more crackhead Templars, and the deaths of every mage in Kirkwall anyway. Color me impressed.

Directly. What Sebastian means by saying "You know what has to be done" is rather obvious. Of course you always can argue he is not a person ;P

I overlooked him - as I didn't buy his DLC, in my games he actually wasn't, no. Nor do I really care what he thinks, I have no particular amity for the character and find his "romance" extremely weird to boot.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the concept that Hawke has no authority.

You literally spend the majority of the game investigating and bringing about justice at the tip of your blade. You get to decide who lives and who dies and why, whether they are attack or not throughout the game. Admittedly, most of these are all small potatoes compared to Anders, but you get to play judge, jury, and executioner.

Pretty sure all or nearly all of those people attack you first unless you're being BastardHawke anyway, so this line of reasoning is moot. I have no problem with self-defense.

And as I said earlier, I don't recognize Meredith's "authority" in any way, shape or form.

[Jayngfet]

On the rivalry path, I agree, he is Justice's puppet. But on the friendship path, it is his choice, merely amplified by Justice. "I could no more ignore the injustice of the Circle than he could."

I'm only just going through Awakening still and I wouldn't really classify it as his choice, in the grander context. You can audibly hear Justice saying "we should do something drastic and attack the templars", meanwhile Anders is saying "No, that's stupid, because then I'll die a painful death" if you have them both in your party. Anders himself is mostly ok with things as they are so long as he can escape and do apostate stuff.

It's kind of obvious that through the years Justice has been coercing him to act rashly and his control over his own actions is diminishing. Even within a modern legal context that's enough to qualify as coercion. Having someone constantly hound you for a decade wears down the sanity, after all.

Which is interesting, in and of itself, and adds a bit of complexity to fade creatures that they desperately need. I mean Justice is all well and good, but at the end of the day he can only really see the world through the lens of violence and specific goals, and looks down on mere mortals. Meanwhile say, a Desire Demon is usually much more stable, since a large number of them only want to deal with one or two hosts and what amounts to regular experience with some modification. I mean yeah, they deal with subtlety and long games, but Justice has done so much more damage at that there's no real comparison.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I'm sitting back and watching the debate now, I just want to clarify that there's a difference between moral authority or justification (which Meredith has about as much of as, I don't know, Bartrand or Rendon Howe) and authority as in the ability and resources to boss people around, which Meredith has in spades.

I think that was a point of miscommunication between me, Psyren, and possibly some other folks.

[Beowulf DW]

Again, I'm not condoning what he did (at least, not as far as anyone who isn't Elthina is concerned.) But after it is done, I don't see what good shanking him will do besides satisfy some animal need for petty revenge. It certainly won't bring any of those fallen innocents back. The excuse that "oh, we're stopping him from committing another tragedy" is weak and hollow. It's done, the war is on, what other tragedy could he possibly commit at that point? With him alive, you have one of the most powerful soldiers around who can win this for the mages and prevent the Circle and all its atrocities from ever coming back, and thereby prevent the next guy whose childhood friend got tranquilized from doing something similar (except in the middle of a crowded square this time, or maybe in a Chantry during the daytime when it's nice and packed.) Lose him, and you could even end up with the Circle reinstated, nice and ripe for this tragedy to repeat itself in another few decades.

TL;DR: what he did was wrong, but committing murder on top of it is just throwing bad after bad.

Well, why did we kill Quentin, then? Hawke's mom and the other women won't be coming back. Why did we kill the Arishok? The Viscount isn't coming back. Why do we "kill [our] way through half of Kirkwall?" And the best part is, Quentin and Arishok probably would have stopped. Quentin had accomplished his goal, the Arishok would have eventually brought Kirkwall under control. They likely wouldn't have caused people any more suffering beyond what they already had. And we killed them anyway. Why? Compared to them, Anders is much more likely to keep causing tragedies. You saw how he turned on that mage we rescued from Alrick. Anders/Vengeance would have killed her if Hawke hadn't been there. He's losing control, slowly but surely. It's only a matter of time before he goes permanently berserk.

[Jayngfet]

Well, why did we kill Quentin, then? Hawke's mom and the other women won't be coming back. Why did we kill the Arishok? The Viscount isn't coming back. Why do we "kill [our] way through half of Kirkwall?" And the best part is, Quentin and Arishok probably would have stopped. Quentin had accomplished his goal, the Arishok would have eventually brought Kirkwall under control. They likely wouldn't have caused people any more suffering beyond what they already had. And we killed them anyway. Why? Compared to them, Anders is much more likely to keep causing tragedies. You saw how he turned on that mage we rescued from Alrick. Anders/Vengeance would have killed her if Hawke hadn't been there. He's losing control, slowly but surely. It's only a matter of time before he goes permanently berserk.

Exactly. Anders isn't himself and there's no way for him to regain control. At least not without a dozen mages and fifty Lyrium bricks if Conner is anything to go by. The sly, grinning, flirty rogue we fell in love with over Awakening is already gone by the time we see Anders again in 2. By that point Justice is making him do things he knows will kill him, like a divine parasite.

I mean hell, he's building one hell of a bomb from frighteningly common ingredients. What happens if he decides to blow up another Chantry? Or a support line of civilians to starve out a templar camp? Or a ship heading to Amaranthine with important information on rebel mages? Even without magic, Anders is probably one of the most dangerous men out there. Now that you've personally equipped him with some of the best stuff in the world and pushed his powers to the limit, the damage he causes would be unthinkably huge.

Anders is a friend, but he's a friend that's been warped beyond repair and is a danger to himself and everyone around him. He needs to be put down for his own good.

[Giggling Ghast]

Again, I'm not condoning what he did (at least, not as far as anyone who isn't Elthina is concerned.) But after it is done, I don't see what good shanking him will do besides satisfy some animal need for petty revenge. It certainly won't bring any of those fallen innocents back.

It's not vengeance, it's justice. And however great an injustice the Circle may be, that doesn't give free licence to the people fighting that injustice to commit whatever atrocity they like.

The excuse that "oh, we're stopping him from committing another tragedy" is weak and hollow. It's done, the war is on, what other tragedy could he possibly commit at that point? With him alive, you have one of the most powerful soldiers around who can win this for the mages and prevent the Circle and all its atrocities from ever coming back, and thereby prevent the next guy whose childhood friend got tranquilized from doing something similar (except in the middle of a crowded square this time, or maybe in a Chantry during the daytime when it's nice and packed.) Lose him, and you could even end up with the Circle reinstated, nice and ripe for this tragedy to repeat itself in another few decades.

The spirit inside Anders does turn on innocents such as Ella for little reason. The mage cause doesn't need Anders.

[Psyren]

I'm only just going through Awakening still and I wouldn't really classify it as his choice, in the grander context. You can audibly hear Justice saying "we should do something drastic and attack the templars", meanwhile Anders is saying "No, that's stupid, because then I'll die a painful death" if you have them both in your party. Anders himself is mostly ok with things as they are so long as he can escape and do apostate stuff.

It's kind of obvious that through the years Justice has been coercing him to act rashly and his control over his own actions is diminishing. Even within a modern legal context that's enough to qualify as coercion. Having someone constantly hound you for a decade wears down the sanity, after all.

Or he was just living next door to one of the worst Circles in Thedas for years and one day upped the ante on his own.

I won't deny that Justice had some influence there, that Anders may not have gone as far as he did without Justice living in his head. But you can't possibly pin the whole shift in mindset on the spirit. Or if Justice really was the main driver, it was still its proximity to the Gallows and all the injustice happening there that set it off. This wasn't "hey, let's go crazy today" - this was "this is never going to change the way things are going."

I'm sitting back and watching the debate now, I just want to clarify that there's a difference between moral authority or justification (which Meredith has about as much of as, I don't know, Bartrand or Rendon Howe) and authority as in the ability and resources to boss people around, which Meredith has in spades.

I think that was a point of miscommunication between me, Psyren, and possibly some other folks.

In a purely physical/military sense, yes, she has the ability to exert her will upon the city and law/due process be damned; much in the same way that someone with more muscles is physically capable of forcing themselves on someone who is not.

I don't happen to consider that "authority." I have a few other choice words for it that I won't repeat here; rather, my point is that having this capability does not make Meredith's judgments correct, nor beyond challenge/reproach. Kirkwall is not a theocracy. Even Orlais is not - Justinia has a great deal of power there, but she's still not the Empress.

Well, why did we kill Quentin, then? Hawke's mom and the other women won't be coming back. Why did we kill the Arishok? The Viscount isn't coming back. Why do we "kill [our] way through half of Kirkwall?" And the best part is, Quentin and Arishok probably would have stopped. Quentin had accomplished his goal, the Arishok would have eventually brought Kirkwall under control. They likely wouldn't have caused people any more suffering beyond what they already had. And we killed them anyway. Why? Compared to them, Anders is much more likely to keep causing tragedies. You saw how he turned on that mage we rescued from Alrick. Anders/Vengeance would have killed her if Hawke hadn't been there. He's losing control, slowly but surely. It's only a matter of time before he goes permanently berserk.

I killed Quentin, the Arishok, and just about everyone else because of what they were ABOUT to do. Not merely because of what they had done. I don't recall the Arishok sitting on the ground telling me to shank him, do you?

As for Anders "losing control" - I don't know what cutscene you were watching, but The Last Straw showed me someone in complete control of their faculties. Even when he went all glowy, he laid out his case very evenly, then sat down and accepted his fate.

[Dienekes]

Pretty sure all or nearly all of those people attack you first unless you're being BastardHawke anyway, so this line of reasoning is moot. I have no problem with self-defense.

And as I said earlier, I don't recognize Meredith's "authority" in any way, shape or form.

Many not all, and you go looking for trouble quite a lot.

It doesn't matter if you recognize Meredith or not. She, and Elthina, are the proper authorities. Just because you don't like them doesn't make them any less the proper authorities. And honestly, I'm not even saying that you should follow them. I don't. But at least get your argument straight. If you can't perform an action because you aren't the proper authority, then follow the proper authority. If you're going to ignore and try to destroy the proper authority any way then the fact that you aren't the proper authority doesn't really matter. You can side with them, or (theoretically, not in the game, sadly) just walk away and let the proper authorities deal with the situation.

But you don't follow them. You disagree with them and continuously take action into your own hands. Anders committed a most heinous crime. The innocents he killed deserve to have justice brought to their murderer, and as a nobleman and "the Champion" (judging by medieval laws, of which I'm not sure how they correlate with Kirkwall specifically) the authority to give out his punishment is yours anyway.