Dragon Age 3 II: [This Thread Title Was Deemed Inappropriate By The Chantry]

[Math_Mage]

I would prefer that he had attacked Meredith too, but realistically this isn't viable. On his own, he'd have just thrown his life away, and who would be left to stop the lobotomies then? Certainly not Orsino, whose strategy thus far has been to run to Elthina's skirts, get a pat on the head and be sent to bed with a sweet.

No, he needed all of them to rise up if they wanted to stand a chance, and all the other circles too. Attacking Meredith and getting smacked down like a gnat (never mind her red lyrium ninja blade, if she even needed it) would not have been that catalyst. Even Cullen was on her side almost to the very end, countermanding Thrask's attempts to have her removed.

Ugh, where to begin?
-"realistically this isn't viable"--There are, y'know, ways to get around a difference in strength. Like, I don't know, a bomb? Poison? Hired assassins?
-"he needed all of them"--And he didn't make any effort to leverage his network, or do anything until it was entirely stamped out.
-"if they wanted to stand a chance"--To do what? Win a war? Again, this only works if (a) your goal is to start a war, and (b) you think blowing up the Chantry is the best way to mobilize the mages in preparation for war. Key word, that: preparation. The mages are totally unprepared for Anders' war, and blowing up the Chantry is the single best way to turn the populace against them, doesn't prepare them for war, and in fact doesn't even inform them that there's a war on. (Not to mention being an unjustifiable mass slaughter of innocents. Just want to keep that fact in the conversation.) Meanwhile, again, Anders has hardly exhausted the non-war options for his actual goals, which are mage freedom and an end to Tranquility.

[Psyren]

A pity the other circles weren't prepared in any way, shape or form - which would make them easy enough to deal with.

For starters, they actually were - Leliana tells you both the Chantry and the Circles are watching events in Kirkwall keenly, and the Mage Underground connects several if not all of them (at a minimum, it involved the Circles in Kirkwall, Starkhaven and Ferelden, with only the former branch being stamped out by Meredith, and Tevinter/Orlais were undoubtedly aware as well.) So I don't subscribe to this notion that they were all caught with their robes around their ankles; they knew what was coming.

Furthermore, we know they must have been prepared on some level (or that they didn't need to be) - even if Hawke sides with the templars and eradicates the Kirkwall Circle entirely, the rebellion still kicks into high gear elsewhere. Whatever warning they had was clearly enough.

That isn't relevant to the post I've answered (nor did I ever claim it was justified).

I know that response wasn't directed at me, I just wanted to chime in on that quote.

Without some outside intervention the chances of actually winning are rather slim - even moreso since the mages generally don't have much in the ways of contacts beyonds their Circles (and even they need to get supplies from somewhere), with many literally knowing next to nothing about the way things work. Also I'm sure mages from the more normal Circles will appreciate enduring additional hardships/death just so a few can be killed instead of being made tranquil in Kirkwall...

Kirkwall may have been an extreme example but it was also proof that a similar regime could happen to any of them at any time. Just because your jailer is relatively kind to you, does not make unjust imprisonment magically become just. Better to fight off the yoke now, while everyone else is fighting, instead of sit waiting for the next Meredith to assume power.

Not to mention - what might have happened if she was reassigned? She'd just go to another Circle and start the same crap again.

No - the one when we first meet. Which doesn't change the fact he himself admits losing control, with all that entails.

So, nothing since Ella then? That's what I asked for.

Unless he'd turn on the mages for whatever reason - just like with Ella.

You can't plot a trend line with one point no matter how hard you try. Nor do I consider 3-year old behavior to be a perfect indicator of future attitude, especially with how rapidly circumstances in Kirkwall were changing.

Ugh, where to begin?
-"realistically this isn't viable"--There are, y'know, ways to get around a difference in strength. Like, I don't know, a bomb? Poison? Hired assassins?
-"he needed all of them"--And he didn't make any effort to leverage his network, or do anything until it was entirely stamped out.
-"if they wanted to stand a chance"--To do what? Win a war? Again, this only works if (a) your goal is to start a war, and (b) you think blowing up the Chantry is the best way to mobilize the mages in preparation for war. Key word, that: preparation. The mages are totally unprepared for Anders' war, and blowing up the Chantry is the single best way to turn the populace against them, doesn't prepare them for war, and in fact doesn't even inform them that there's a war on. (Not to mention being an unjustifiable mass slaughter of innocents. Just want to keep that fact in the conversation.) Meanwhile, again, Anders has hardly exhausted the non-war options for his actual goals, which are mage freedom and an end to Tranquility.

1) Hire assassins with what? Poison her how? Hopes and dreams? And surely you can see the difference between planting a bomb in heavily-guarded Templar HQ and in a wide open Chantry, can't you?
2) It was the loss of his network (among other things) that pushed him to desperation in the first place. Of course he wasn't desperate enough to use it for conflict at the time. He tells you this himself near the beginning of Act 3.
3) Yes, to win a war. And yes, he meant to start one. So did Andraste.

I see a lot of harping on the preparation issue, or should I say non-issue. The mages were not drooling simpletons - they had eyes and ears in Kirkwall just like the Chantry did, and Leliana confirms it. What evidence do you have that they were unprepared? Especially since the rebellion is, near as we can tell, successful?

From Varric's epilogue: "How is hearing all this going to help? Haven't you already lost all the Circles? In fact, haven't the Templars rebelled as well?" Sounds like a double-win to me.

[Dienekes]

That's the key difference there Psyren. People are giving quite a few reasons why Anders plan shouldn't work, and in fact would be detrimental to the mages. Instead of really disproving these points, you just point out that in the end it does work like Anders wanted. But that isn't an explanation. It's just bad writing.

[Psyren]

That's the key difference there Psyren. People are giving quite a few reasons why Anders plan shouldn't work, and in fact would be detrimental to the mages. Instead of really disproving these points, you just point out that in the end it does work like Anders wanted. But that isn't an explanation. It's just bad writing.

Okay then, let's put aside the fact that it works. Do you have any truly compelling reason why it wouldn't? Again, what evidence do you have that the mages were blindsided?

[Divayth Fyr]

The problem is that the rebellion we know about didn't really start at once (see DA: Asunder) - for the next three years (and that is quite some time to prepare yourself if you see things are going badly) the Templars treated mages even harsher than before and then a chain of events led to the true start of the open war. Not the least of those reasons was the fact the Divine wanted to help the mages... Also having most of the Templars continue to be united but not restricted by anything other than their own views isn't something I'd call a win. The Kirkwall Circle would likely cease to exist years before the incident if the Templar there didn't have anyone above their heads.

[Psyren]

The problem is that the rebellion we know about didn't really start at once (see DA: Asunder) - for the next three years (and that is quite some time to prepare yourself if you see things are going badly) the Templars treated mages even harsher than before and then a chain of events led to the true start of the open war. Not the least of those reasons was the fact the Divine wanted to help the mages... Also having most of the Templars continue to be united but not restricted by anything other than their own views isn't something I'd call a win. The Kirkwall Circle would likely cease to exist years before the incident if the Templar there didn't have anyone above their heads.

But this undermines your point even more. If Anders' nuke took three whole years to really get things going and the mages had all that time to organize and prepare and "see if things are going badly." how can you then turn around and claim they were blindsided? And the Templars, as I established in Varric's quote, are not united. They weren't even in Kirkwall, between Thrask and Cullen and Carver and other dissidents. And there will be more.

[Divayth Fyr]

But this undermines your point even more. If Anders' nuke took three whole years to really get things going and the mages had all that time to organize and prepare and "see if things are going badly." how can you then turn around and claim they were blindsided?

They would be blindsided if things went as he wanted them and the war started immediately. There was a - relative and tense - peace for those years. Something he claimed there is no place for.

And the Templars, as I established in Varric's quote, are not united

How does that quote prove it? It only mentions templars rebelling...

[Math_Mage]

1) Hire assassins with what? Poison her how? Hopes and dreams? And surely you can see the difference between planting a bomb in heavily-guarded Templar HQ and in a wide open Chantry, can't you?
2) It was the loss of his network (among other things) that pushed him to desperation in the first place. Of course he wasn't desperate enough to use it for conflict at the time. He tells you this himself near the beginning of Act 3.
3) Yes, to win a war. And yes, he meant to start one. So did Andraste.

I see a lot of harping on the preparation issue, or should I say non-issue. The mages were not drooling simpletons - they had eyes and ears in Kirkwall just like the Chantry did, and Leliana confirms it. What evidence do you have that they were unprepared? Especially since the rebellion is, near as we can tell, successful?

From Varric's epilogue: "How is hearing all this going to help? Haven't you already lost all the Circles? In fact, haven't the Templars rebelled as well?" Sounds like a double-win to me.

1) Anders is a mage with access to the Champion of Kirkwall. Come up with something. Also, Meredith isn't imprisoned in Templar HQ. Draw her out. Also also, you don't even need to succeed in killing Meredith to have the effect Anders apparently wanted. Just make it obvious that a mage is responsible. Also also also, and this shouldn't need to be said again, but don't blow up a Chantry full of innocent people just because reaching the culprits is harder than you'd like.
2) The man who rearranges deck chairs on a sinking ship should not be taking responsibility for righting it.
3) Yes, I know what he meant to do--I also know that in pursuing that he's lost sight of the actual goals, such that he ends up trying to accomplish his intended aim in a colossally stupid--and evil--way that doesn't bring about his actual goals.
4) The evidence is what actually happened in canon--Anders' actions led to confusion among the mages, with isolated revolts that were put down, leading to harsher treatment and no war until the events at White Spire. Which, by the way, featured some of this stuff we're talking about: research on reversing the Rite of Tranquility, a false flag operation with at least ambiguous moral consequences to galvanize Wynne, consultation among the Circles, and--wait, I'm forgetting something--oh, right, not blowing up a Chantry full of innocent people. Have I mentioned that? I think I should mention that. In other words, Anders' actions had the entirely predictable outcome of catching the mages with their pants down and making the situation worse for years until another forcing move, somewhat less evil and far more effective, led to the actual war.

[Psyren]

They would be blindsided if things went as he wanted them and the war started immediately. There was a - relative and tense - peace for those years. Something he claimed there is no place for.

Your claim, that things would have gone badly for the mages without that ramp-up time, is still baseless. And the fact still remains that had he not done what he did, there would have been no ramp-up at all - just status quo and lobotomies.

I don't see how it could have happened instantly anyway. During those three years we see the vote by the College of Enchanters get defeated, the White Spire incident, the the exodus of most mages to Andoral, and the final vote where the Loyalists were defeated again by thhe Libertarians and Aequitarians. What exactly do you believe Anders could have possibly done to speed any of that up? Wat could have forced them to charge ahead without preparation?

How does that quote prove it? It only mentions templars rebelling...

The only possible organization they could be rebelling against is the one they answer to, i.e. the Chantry. Therefore they can't possibly be united.

1) Anders is a mage with access to the Champion of Kirkwall. Come up with something. Also, Meredith isn't imprisoned in Templar HQ. Draw her out. Also also, you don't even need to succeed in killing Meredith to have the effect Anders apparently wanted. Just make it obvious that a mage is responsible. Also also also, and this shouldn't need to be said again, but don't blow up a Chantry full of innocent people just because reaching the culprits is harder than you'd like.
2) The man who rearranges deck chairs on a sinking ship should not be taking responsibility for righting it.
3) Yes, I know what he meant to do--I also know that in pursuing that he's lost sight of the actual goals, such that he ends up trying to accomplish his intended aim in a colossally stupid--and evil--way that doesn't bring about his actual goals.
4) The evidence is what actually happened in canon--Anders' actions led to confusion among the mages, with isolated revolts that were put down, leading to harsher treatment and no war until the events at White Spire. Which, by the way, featured some of this stuff we're talking about: research on reversing the Rite of Tranquility, a false flag operation with at least ambiguous moral consequences to galvanize Wynne, consultation among the Circles, and--wait, I'm forgetting something--oh, right, not blowing up a Chantry full of innocent people. Have I mentioned that? I think I should mention that. In other words, Anders' actions had the entirely predictable outcome of catching the mages with their pants down and making the situation worse for years until another forcing move, somewhat less evil and far more effective, led to the actual war.

1) Aren't you assuming as a starting point a Hawke that is willing to shank Anders? Something tells me his/her resources would not be available to do anything beyond what Anders already attempted, i.e. appealing to the Chantry leaders. Meredith was the most paranoid person in Kirkwall - draw her where? None of your plans are well-thought-out at all. 'Also also,' you don't know how many people besides Elthina were in the Chantry at night, so loaded terms like "building full of innocent people" are unsupported. It went off in the dead of night, not at high noon during the Chant.

2) "Deck chairs?" What?

3) It sure seems like it accomplished his goals to me. And I see no reason why it wouldn't have either. And even if for some reason it hadn't - if it had resulted in the slaughter of every single mage in Thedas and no small number of Templars along with them - there would be no possible chance of attempting the failed Circle system again. It would be political suicide for any noble or divine to even contemplate.
"Give me Liberty or give me Death." -Patrick Henry
"Fire is catching! And if we burn, you burn with us!" -Katniss Everdeen, Mockingjay.

4) I saw no "smaller rebellions being put down." The timeline post-Straw is - increased security measures on the Circles, mounting tensions, College of Enchanters vote to end hostilities (failed), assassination attempt on Justinia V, murder of Pharamond and White Spire revolt, mass mage exodus to Andoral's reach, final vote to end war by Loyalists (failed), all-out war. All I see in that is a pot coming to boil; fighting, yes, but the mages are giving as good as they get.

[Divayth Fyr]

Your claim, that things would have gone badly for the mages without that ramp-up time, is still baseless.

As baseless as saying that things would go well - though more logical, since after Kirkwall the Templars were in a better position to fight if it came to that (better organized as a group, had immediate access to supplies and resources, generally more prepared to kill their Circles than the mages were to overthrow them).

I don't see how it could have happened instantly anyway. During those three years we see the vote by the College of Enchanters get defeated, the White Spire incident, the the exodus of most mages to Andoral, and the final vote where the Loyalists were defeated again by thhe Libertarians and Aequitarians. What exactly do you believe Anders could have possibly done to speed any of that up? Wat could have forced them to charge ahead without preparation?

With mages going "we can't have any of this" and Circles rebelling one after another? That's what I feel he hoped for, not for something happening years after he does his thing.

The only possible organization they could be rebelling against is the one they answer to, i.e. the Chantry. Therefore they can't possibly be united.

The Templars as an order had left the Chantry entirely - however they are still united as an order (unless DAI changes things). Saying they can't be united is like saying the crew of a factory cannot possibly be united in rebelling against the owner.

[ScrambledBrains]

You know, with all this discussion going on about the morality of Anders's decision, if he was backed into a corner or not, was he doing the right and/or smart thing with the bomb, etc., I find it almost refreshing that my issue with the blond douche is much simpler...

He's forced upon you. That is enough to tick me off. Look, I would not mind a character whose actions/viewpoints are divisive...but to make that character mandatory UNLESS you're playing a Spirit Healer mage yourself...is infuriating to me.

What if I want to play an Anti-Mage Warrior or Rogue? What about not even Anti-Mage, but just someone who couldn't care less? I could Rivalry with the guy(I mean, it's not like either of his Friendship/Rivalry abilities actually improve his healing. If anything, Rivalry would make him a better healer, since he'd stay up longer.), but then I have to listen to him whine and whine about the mages and snap at me for not kissing his and their collective asses.

They could have made him much better...like Aveline. Technically, she's forced upon you too, since she's pre-specced to Tank. However, not only is she a great character(Mechanically and Fluff-Wise) with some funny interactions with others, but she's not divisive. Had they thrown the stupid Mage V. Templar conflict away and replaced it with something better, I might have even liked Anders. As it stands, I loathe his guts and wish I could make another Mage heal for me. Give me Bethany, for cripes sakes...

[Psyren]

As baseless as saying that things would go well - though more logical, since after Kirkwall the Templars were in a better position to fight if it came to that (better organized as a group, had immediate access to supplies and resources, generally more prepared to kill their Circles than the mages were to overthrow them).

The true logic is that they have nothing to lose by trying. Do nothing, slow death/lobotomy, die anyway. Chance of liberation, zero. Revolt, lots of fast death; however, Circle system becomes politically unfeasible,all-but guaranteeing liberty for future magi. And your own generation has a chance of liberty on top of it. A chance of something is better than nothing, especially with a sunk cost (die anyway.)

With mages going "we can't have any of this" and Circles rebelling one after another? That's what I feel he hoped for, not for something happening years after he does his thing.

But you're assuming that he wouldn't think that would take years to happen. He's been in the Circle for a long time; he knows how the colleges work and how they debate. This claim too is unfounded.

Besides which you're explicitly mistaken - he does expect events to continue many years later even if he is slain. "The sooner I die, the sooner my name lives on to inspire generations." That doesn't sound like only hoping for instant gratification to me. He's most certainly playing the long game.

The Templars as an order had left the Chantry entirely - however they are still united as an order (unless DAI changes things). Saying they can't be united is like saying the crew of a factory cannot possibly be united in rebelling against the owner.

First off, I highly doubt all of them have ditched the Chantry, and nowhere is this stated. There are plenty - like Cullen - who believe wholeheartedly in its mission, are devout followers of the Chant, or both.

Second, even if they've all left, that leaves the very glaring problem of how they're going to continue getting lyrium to feed their smack habits. Cut off from the church's purchasing power, it won't be long before they're screwed. I fully expect some strung-out, addled Templars among our foes in DAI.

Third and final - putting aside the former two concerns - even among those Templars who seek to hunt mages independently, they are likely to vary widely in their methods. They are no longer part of a larger military force. And with that lack of organization comes sloppiness/conflict - a mage advantage.

You know, with all this discussion going on about the morality of Anders's decision, if he was backed into a corner or not, was he doing the right and/or smart thing with the bomb, etc., I find it almost refreshing that my issue with the blond douche is much simpler...

He's forced upon you. That is enough to tick me off. Look, I would not mind a character whose actions/viewpoints are divisive...but to make that character mandatory UNLESS you're playing a Spirit Healer mage yourself...is infuriating to me.

What if I want to play an Anti-Mage Warrior or Rogue? What about not even Anti-Mage, but just someone who couldn't care less? I could Rivalry with the guy(I mean, it's not like either of his Friendship/Rivalry abilities actually improve his healing. If anything, Rivalry would make him a better healer, since he'd stay up longer.), but then I have to listen to him whine and whine about the mages and snap at me for not kissing his and their collective asses.

They could have made him much better...like Aveline. Technically, she's forced upon you too, since she's pre-specced to Tank. However, not only is she a great character(Mechanically and Fluff-Wise) with some funny interactions with others, but she's not divisive. Had they thrown the stupid Mage V. Templar conflict away and replaced it with something better, I might have even liked Anders. As it stands, I loathe his guts and wish I could make another Mage heal for me. Give me Bethany, for cripes sakes...

Nobody forced you to play with a healer Dumb down the difficulty as far as it can go, roll with two warriors and have them trade off aggro between potions etc. In the first act when you're short on cash, you still can heal with Bethany.

Or if someone truly is indispensable to your operation, maybe you should hear out their opinions once in awhile; food for thought.

[Rodin]

Having a dedicated healer in DA2 just isn't necessary. I played on the default difficulty and never took Anders along. My party consisted of Mage Hawke (DPS and Control Build, no healing), Aveline, Varric, and Merrill. Didn't have any particular problems.

[Psyren]

You Wolverine-heal between fights anyway unlike DAO. Just bring injury kits in case.

[Seatbelt]

Having a dedicated healer in DA2 just isn't necessary. I played on the default difficulty and never took Anders along. My party consisted of Mage Hawke (DPS and Control Build, no healing), Aveline, Varric, and Merrill. Didn't have any particular problems.

Yeah you don't need a healer. But it helps a bunch. Without a healer I had to spam pots like a madman during certain encounters. Like the High Dragon.

Also I hate rogues for the same reason. Traps and locked chests exist in the game. Fine that's cool. If I want access to them I need a rogue. Makes sense. Games should ALWAYS provide you with at LEAST two different rogues so you're not stuck with someone super annoying. Like Neeshka. God I hated Neeshka.

[Ailurus]

Having a dedicated healer in DA2 just isn't necessary. I played on the default difficulty and never took Anders along. My party consisted of Mage Hawke (DPS and Control Build, no healing), Aveline, Varric, and Merrill. Didn't have any particular problems.

In addition to healing between fights, the potion drop system in DA2 is just exploitable too. Never bothered figuring out the numbers, but in my experience if you have 0 or 1 of a potion, the odds of an enemy dropping one is near-guaranteed, but if you've got multiples of one then the odds of it dropping are much less. So, use em if you got em (or sell them, its not much but early game running back to a vender after each encounter to pick up a few more coins for the potions is time consuming but still useful).

[ScrambledBrains]

Nobody forced you to play with a healer Dumb down the difficulty as far as it can go, roll with two warriors and have them trade off aggro between potions etc. In the first act when you're short on cash, you still can heal with Bethany.

Or if someone truly is indispensable to your operation, maybe you should hear out their opinions once in awhile; food for thought.

I like a normal challenge, thank you very much. And the cool-down between potions is too long for that to be viable. All it takes is for some encounter in Act 2 to wait till Aveline quaffs a potion(Since you are correct that in Act 1, I still have Bethany's help.), then snuff her, and the whole team goes up in smoke without a healer with access to a revival spell. Further, I don't like having to waste my valuable sovereigns on healing potions when I have more important things to buy.

Don't presume. I agree with Anders's point, that individual Mages should have the right to determine their own paths with or without the Circle and Templars corralling them up and clasping them in chains or worse. But I loathe that he is the only healer in the game. In DA:O, if I didn't like Wynne(Though I do since she's an awesome lady. ), I had the option of teaching Spirit Healer to Morrigan and making her heal. Was it perhaps not something Morrigan herself would deliberately do? Of course, but I liked the option. Here, it's 'Make do with Anders, make your main a Spirit Healer or suck down defeat for the fifth damn time because an Arcane Horror ripped Aveline into a fine red paste!'

Bioware took away your options and expected you to take what they gave you. I DO NOT APPROVE OF THAT.

[Jayngfet]

Assassinate Meredith, blow up the Templar barracks, attempt to learn how to undue Tranquility, start a large group of mages to passively resist Templar demands in a peaceful manner, organize an actual army.

The point is, if you're goal is to save the mages, provoking the mass murder of all of them your trying to save to create a scandal is just about the dumbest plan I've ever heard. It only works if the goal is the war itself, and the way he goes about it does not put the mages in a position to win. If they lose, it is just as likely that it will result in even harsher restrictions put on mages as otherwise.

As it stands, Anders created a war where the mages do not have a command structure, do not have supplies, are several bodies completely out of communication with each other. In fact, let's talk about communication. The Chantry and the Templar control the information that the mages receive in each Circle. Meaning that news of the chaos of Kirkwall will reach them before it reaches the mages, giving the Templar additional time to prepare and be ready for an attack. Anders' war he created gives all the cards to the Templar, and to top it off tied the Mage movement to actions against the dominant religion of the land.

Right, but again you're misconstruing the actual goals discussed.

Justice doesn't want to save the mages, he wants to end oppression. That's the word he used in his initial plan and the distinction is a critical one. You're always going to get more mages born later, so provided their situation is different from the lives sacrificed now it'll be "worth it", even if you wind up killing thousands of tens of thousands of innocents to accomplish this. Anders never cared that much about individual mages made tranquil so much as that they get made tranquil anyway. Just like how he was going to attack the Baroness in the first game, but without your help every mortal victim would have died in that fight and left him to finish the job, even if that was his initial plan.

By having the Templars kill or pressure every circle mage, presumably this would provoke a reaction in and of itself. Therefore, even if the war is lost he still "wins" in the end. Even if everyone else loses.

[Math_Mage]

1) Aren't you assuming as a starting point a Hawke that is willing to shank Anders? Something tells me his/her resources would not be available to do anything beyond what Anders already attempted, i.e. appealing to the Chantry leaders.

Right, because any use of resources on anything more divisive than appealing to the Chantry leaders is equivalent to blowing up the Chantry.

Wait, no, that's bull.

Meredith was the most paranoid person in Kirkwall - draw her where? None of your plans are well-thought-out at all.

I have a very, very low bar to clear.

'Also also,' you don't know how many people besides Elthina were in the Chantry at night, so loaded terms like "building full of innocent people" are unsupported. It went off in the dead of night, not at high noon during the Chant.

Someone else can probably answer this better, but all the information I have suggests that the number is 'many'.

3) It sure seems like it accomplished his goals to me. And I see no reason why it wouldn't have either. And even if for some reason it hadn't - if it had resulted in the slaughter of every single mage in Thedas and no small number of Templars along with them - there would be no possible chance of attempting the failed Circle system again. It would be political suicide for any noble or divine to even contemplate.

Oh, hooray, sacrificing the people for the cause. That's not losing sight of the real goals at all.

4) I saw no "smaller rebellions being put down." The timeline post-Straw is - increased security measures on the Circles, mounting tensions, College of Enchanters vote to end hostilities (failed), assassination attempt on Justinia V, murder of Pharamond and White Spire revolt, mass mage exodus to Andoral's reach, final vote to end war by Loyalists (failed), all-out war. All I see in that is a pot coming to boil; fighting, yes, but the mages are giving as good as they get.

Again, I'm working on limited information, but...

While Templar reinforcements arrived at Kirkwall to suppress further resistance, news from escaping mages of what had occurred spread to other Circles. Outraged that the templars of Kirkwall would invoke the Right of Annulment to justify the extermination of an entire Circle for the crimes of one apostate, some Circles revolted, while others were close to doing so. In response, the Templar Order cracked down, further restricting mage freedoms in an attempt to quell further disturbance.

[Giggling Ghast]

I played about half of DA2 without a healer. I got through the game OK. Damage is way more important in DA2; I got far more mileage out of Merrill than I did Anders.

[Seatbelt]

I like a normal challenge, thank you very much. And the cool-down between potions is too long for that to be viable. All it takes is for some encounter in Act 2 to wait till Aveline quaffs a potion(Since you are correct that in Act 1, I still have Bethany's help.), then snuff her, and the whole team goes up in smoke without a healer with access to a revival spell. Further, I don't like having to waste my valuable sovereigns on healing potions when I have more important things to buy.

You really didn't need a healer. I hated Anders too and I played a melee fighter and a rogue.

[Divayth Fyr]

The true logic is that they have nothing to lose by trying. Do nothing, slow death/lobotomy, die anyway.

Everybody dies.

however, Circle system becomes politically unfeasible,all-but guaranteeing liberty for future magi.

In the case of losing the war the system could become even more oppresive, perhaps going as far as making every mage tranquil or killed after the talent is revealed.

Besides which you're explicitly mistaken - he does expect events to continue many years later even if he is slain. "The sooner I die, the sooner my name lives on to inspire generations." That doesn't sound like only hoping for instant gratification to me. He's most certainly playing the long game.

So, hoping that a war will erupt in a few decades (if not more, since he uses plural)? I'd see that more as being remembered whenever a mage in the future would feel opressed.

First off, I highly doubt all of them have ditched the Chantry, and nowhere is this stated. There are plenty - like Cullen - who believe wholeheartedly in its mission, are devout followers of the Chant, or both.

Varric's statement suggest that enough have rebelled to be a serious problem.

Second, even if they've all left, that leaves the very glaring problem of how they're going to continue getting lyrium to feed their smack habits. Cut off from the church's purchasing power, it won't be long before they're screwed. I fully expect some strung-out, addled Templars among our foes in DAI.

I'd say they would be able to raid the supplies of many of many of the places they were to guard (aka Circles), which would allow them to go on for some time. Not much more can be said - we lack any details about the addiction.

Third and final - putting aside the former two concerns - even among those Templars who seek to hunt mages independently, they are likely to vary widely in their methods. They are no longer part of a larger military force. And with that lack of organization comes sloppiness/conflict - a mage advantage.

Their order was a military force before joining the Chantry and remained one when under its control. They will remain a military force.

One thing I forgot:

you don't know how many people besides Elthina were in the Chantry at night, so loaded terms like "building full of innocent people" are unsupported. It went off in the dead of night, not at high noon during the Chant.

Of course the Chantry was just a start - there was a lot of debris flying everywhere, a shockwave and we've seen buildings caught fire as a direct result of the explosion. Further innocent victims were all but guaranteed.

[Psyren]

Bioware took away your options and expected you to take what they gave you. I DO NOT APPROVE OF THAT.

Eh, sometimes life forces you to work with people you don't like because they have skills you need. And art imitates life.

Right, because any use of resources on anything more divisive than appealing to the Chantry leaders is equivalent to blowing up the Chantry.

Wait, no, that's bull.

Your "solutions" (somehow poisoning Meredith, or hiring assassins) are bull too. Based on Zevran's discussion of the Crows, I doubt even Hawke could afford the latter, and the chances of the former working are vanishingly small, not with Meredith's paranoia.

Someone else can probably answer this better, but all the information I have suggests that the number is 'many'.

That's not a number.

Oh, hooray, sacrificing the people for the cause. That's not losing sight of the real goals at all.

The goals it's achieving, you mean?

Again, I'm working on limited information, but...

That sounds pre-emptive to me, not a series of victories against disorganized petulant mages. Indeed, Asunder has the crackdowns happening long before open revolt e.g. at White Spire.

[ScrambledBrains]

I played about half of DA2 without a healer. I got through the game OK. Damage is way more important in DA2; I got far more mileage out of Merrill than I did Anders.

And when your Tank goes down and your other Damage Dealers follow because they're waiting for their potions to cool down, what did you do then? Just keep reloading till you got lucky? Waste valuable tactics spots putting 'Use Potion' onto one of them? I'm honestly curious.

You really didn't need a healer. I hated Anders too and I played a melee fighter and a rogue.

I LIKE having a healer. I hate micromanaging my team to use healing potions, and I hate wasting tactics slots for a potion.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Just like Varric's cut dialogue said:

"Justice is a funny concept. It'll drive a man to perform the noblest deeds as well as the worst atrocities. Justice is a blade that draws blood from the innocent and wicked alike, and raised high, it can lead a charge that changes the world forever..."

[Psyren]

Everybody dies.

So slavery is fine because slaves die eventually? Lobotomy is fine because Tranquil die too? What?

In the case of losing the war the system could become even more oppresive, perhaps going as far as making every mage tranquil or killed after the talent is revealed.

I can't think of a faster way to get the Chantry itself destroyed, as if they start slaughtering people's children en masse like that. Mages aren't only born to other mages you know; in fact, frequently they're not, outside of Tevinter.

So, hoping that a war will erupt in a few decades (if not more, since he uses plural)? I'd see that more as being remembered whenever a mage in the future would feel opressed.

Not necessarily that it would start in a few decades, just that it would keep going for that time.

Varric's statement suggest that enough have rebelled to be a serious problem.

Oh, I'm totally agreed here. I merely happen to think the defection of their soldiers is a bigger problem for the Chantry than the mages.

I'd say they would be able to raid the supplies of many of many of the places they were to guard (aka Circles), which would allow them to go on for some time. Not much more can be said - we lack any details about the addiction.

Why would the mages who threw them out and then set out for the Andorals leave a bunch of lyrium behind them? Especially with a bunch of Tranquil to carry it safely? I doubt there are any "supplies" left to be raided. Indeed, I'm willing to bet lyrium shortage will be a plot point in DAI what with all the disruption going on.

Their order was a military force before joining the Chantry and remained one when under its control. They will remain a military force.

What do you mean "before joining?" The order was created by the Chantry.

Of course the Chantry was just a start - there was a lot of debris flying everywhere, a shockwave and we've seen buildings caught fire as a direct result of the explosion. Further innocent victims were all but guaranteed.

So, no numbers then?

The fires in that cutscene were already burning before the bomb went off. The debris I'll give you, though it seems to get blasted outside the city. That leaves a cloud of dust - not exactly nuclear fallout.

[Divayth Fyr]

I can't think of a faster way to get the Chantry itself destroyed, as if they start slaughtering people's children en masse like that. Mages aren't only born to other mages you know; in fact, frequently they're not, outside of Tevinter.

Again, that entrirely depends on how things turn out - people already fear and despise mages. A few more acts like the one in Kirkwall and they will praise anyone who goes an

Why would the mages who threw them out and then set out for the Andorals leave a bunch of lyrium behind them? Especially with a bunch of Tranquil to carry it safely? I doubt there are any "supplies" left to be raided. Indeed, I'm willing to bet lyrium shortage will be a plot point in DAI what with all the disruption going on.

That didn't happen in every circle.

What do you mean "before joining?" The order was created by the Chantry.

Technically you are correct - they were the Inquisition before signing the Nevarran Acord.

So, no numbers then?

Not really - just like there are no exact numbers on what happened to the mages in Kirkwall Circle (how many got tranqualized, killed or anything else) ;P

The fires in that cutscene were already burning before the bomb went off. The debris I'll give you, though it seems to get blasted outside the city. That leaves a cloud of dust - not exactly nuclear fallout.

Watch again - there were fires that look like they were to illuminate certain places, but after the explosion they had greatly grown and fire started literally falling from the sky.

[Math_Mage]

Your "solutions" (somehow poisoning Meredith, or hiring assassins) are bull too. Based on Zevran's discussion of the Crows, I doubt even Hawke could afford the latter, and the chances of the former working are vanishingly small, not with Meredith's paranoia.

*shrug* My first-phase-of-brainstorming proposals are made with zero knowledge of Meredith's habits or potential weaknesses. Anders has had years to investigate. He can have years longer to plan. More to the point, 'attacking Meredith' is only one of the many other things Anders could be doing. For example, he could be doing what Pharamon eventually succeeded in doing. (For that matter, Pharamon's discovery by itself is enough to force a crucial decision point, rendering Anders' actions good for little except increasing the body count both before and after the decision.)

That's not a number.

There's no exact number at which point an atrocity becomes an atrocity, but Anders was over the line, so what the hell is there to argue about?

The goals it's achieving, you mean?

You're willing to attach genocide to the destruction of the circle system and call it a net win. If that's 'mission accomplished', I want no part of the mission.

That sounds pre-emptive to me, not a series of victories against disorganized petulant mages. Indeed, Asunder has the crackdowns happening long before open revolt e.g. at White Spire.

"Some Circles revolted, while others were close to doing so." What was this, chopped liver?

[Psyren]

Spoiler: Math_Mage

Show

*shrug* My first-phase-of-brainstorming proposals are made with zero knowledge of Meredith's habits or potential weaknesses. Anders has had years to investigate. He can have years longer to plan. More to the point, 'attacking Meredith' is only one of the many other things Anders could be doing. For example, he could be doing what Pharamon eventually succeeded in doing. (For that matter, Pharamon's discovery by itself is enough to force a crucial decision point, rendering Anders' actions good for little except increasing the body count both before and after the decision.)

Pharamond's experiment was extremely singular in nature and it's completely impractical to expect Anders to have repeated it. For starters, he would have had to make himself Tranquil, and the complications only grow from there. It's not remotely worth giving serious consideration.

And we can speculate until the cows come home on what else he might have done. The measures I saw were reasonable, and they failed. So, time to get unreasonable.

There's no exact number at which point an atrocity becomes an atrocity, but Anders was over the line, so what the hell is there to argue about?

But there is a number at which one is justified - namely, when the number of lives that will be lost if it is not committed exceeding it. Do nothing, Kirkwall's mages die anyway, and the Circle's failed experiment continues for another hundred years, ruining how many more lives in the mean time.

You're willing to attach genocide to the destruction of the circle system and call it a net win. If that's 'mission accomplished', I want no part of the mission.

And by not taking part, you're allowing the ongoing genocide of its victims, which I want no part of.
It's a crappy situation, I agree. So were slavery, and the Third Estate, and many other uprisings.

"Some Circles revolted, while others were close to doing so." What was this, chopped liver?

I see no mention there of failures. So it looks like the plan worked.

Spoiler: karpik777

Show

Again, that entrirely depends on how things turn out - people already fear and despise mages. A few more acts like the one in Kirkwall and they will praise anyone who goes an

Who what? I think you cut off your sentence there.

That didn't happen in every circle.

You may be right; this point is speculation on my part. We can only wait and see what the lyrium situation will be in Inquisition. I doubt that the Templars will just wave a wand and solve the reason they were beholden to the Chantry in the first place so easily however.

Technically you are correct - they were the Inquisition before signing the Nevarran Acord.

The Inquisition was founded by the Chantry too, which is my point. There was never a "before they joined."

Not really - just like there are no exact numbers on what happened to the mages in Kirkwall Circle (how many got tranqualized, killed or anything else) ;P

But there are statements by the characters on how the number is growing. I didn't hear anyone give a body count (aside from Elthina herself) on the Chantry, and we see 5 people in the cutscene.
I'm willing to agree it could be higher than that, but not that the building was packed with people in the dead of night - that's ludicrous.

Watch again - there were fires that look like they were to illuminate certain places, but after the explosion they had greatly grown and fire started literally falling from the sky.

I see embers fall and extinguish, sometimes in midair, without igniting anything. For a WMD it's remarkably well-contained.

[Zevox]

But there is a number at which one is justified

This, I think, is where all of these disagreements are coming from. I, and I'm guessing a fair few others here, if not everyone that's been arguing with you, do not believe that. At no point does something like what Anders did ever become justified. The ends can never justify such means.