Dragon Age 3 II: [This Thread Title Was Deemed Inappropriate By The Chantry]

[Jayngfet]

"We've conscripted you into a war you didn't even want for a cause you might not even have cared about because of people you never even knew. Who cares what you think, or what you wanted? You have to fight now."

It doesn't bother you at all that one person, one deeply flawed person, has plunged the world into war? Not just the mages and templars, but just about all of Thedas?

Not just that, but do you REALLY want this person to be out and free in the world? Knowing that their mind is deteriorating?

I mean in the real world, look at Gavrilo Princip. He killed a couple of people and this kicked off a world war. The war may have been coming anyway, but he still pulled the trigger in an attempt to end oppression, and instead launched off a bloody series of wars that left more people dead than the entirety of world history at that point. Because he was clearly an unstable extremist who didn't think about the consequences of his actions.

He wasn't sent on his way, and he only got off execution on a technicality. He went to jail. But jail isn't an option here. It's execution or freedom for someone who has no cares for who gets hurt to get his way. Anders is too dangerous to let go, not even because he's a mage, but because he's not mentally stable and not capable of restraining himself from hurting the innocent.

[Avilan the Grey]

I was mostly agreeing with your post there up until this line. Nobody deserves to be made tranquil, especially against their will. Nobody.

Thing is, how else are you keeping them locked up? One could let them choose, of course.

Edit: As mentioned above Psyren has failed to provide a single argument that proves that the terrorism and subsequent war was neccesary, not to mention morally justified. We can all argue with him for an eternity, but it seems clear neither us nor him will understand how the other one(s) morality works. Or objective analysis for that matter, since we cannot even agree that the bombing is "necessary".

[Psyren]

"We've conscripted you into a war you didn't even want for a cause you might not even have cared about because of people you never even knew. Who cares what you think, or what you wanted? You have to fight now."

It doesn't bother you at all that one person, one deeply flawed person, has plunged the world into war? Not just the mages and templars, but just about all of Thedas?

1) "Didn't want?" You're acting as though every other mage in all of Thedas was a shrinking violet who didn't want things to come to a head, who was content with wearing their yoke indefinitely. That Anders was the only one who had lost friends, lovers and family, and who had had enough. Yet after things kick off we see that the mages are more than willing to go on the offensive now that they know it's win or bust. They are not merely reluctantly defending themselves - they are attacking Orlesian balls and trying to assassinate the Divine herself. And at the end of Asunder, when they have a chance to vote to end the war, they don't. Gonna blame that on Anders too?

It's clear to me that he was not the only one that wanted a revolution - he was merely the first one with the power and opportunity to pull something like this off. Other mages, like Adrian, would have eagerly done the same.


2) Of course it bothers me, but not nearly as much as the status quo was bothering me.

It's clear Psyren that our moral compasses on this matter are pointing to some rather different "Norths." Nothing you have said has convinced me that Anders is in anyway justified, and the more I hear from you, the more I disagree with you. Zealotry and extremism. This focus on one singular goal and on one single way to accomplish it is unhealthy, destructive, and ultimately stupid. Developing that kind of tunnel vision, saying that "it can only be x or y," blinds one to both alternatives and consequences. In the end, it leads to a "with me or against me" mentality as we saw with the rebellious mages Thrask had allied himself with, and then with Anders himself as he tries to hold your friendship hostage to help him make and plant the bomb.

On the contrary, I'm open to alternatives that could have worked. But Bioware wrote the situation in such a way that very little else would have done the trick. Literally my only gripe with what Anders did was that Elthina was not the only person in that building; if she was it would have been nearly perfect.

Not just that, but do you REALLY want this person to be out and free in the world? Knowing that their mind is deteriorating?

"Deteriorating?" He did what he set out to do. The struggle between him and Justice, what little there was, is over. "This is the Justice all mages have awaited." Done. Finito. Fait accompli. What deterioration could you possibly mean?

Thing is, how else are you keeping them locked up?

Let the mages police each other. Execute heinous criminals, like you would with anyone else. The lobotomy serves no purpose except to intimidate the survivors.

"If you really fear us so much, then kill us! Don't pretend that killing everything that makes us human isn't the same thing!" - Adrian, DA: Asunder.

[Zevox]

Thing is, how else are you keeping them locked up?

With Templar guards, evidently, since that's how it's accomplished in the Circles. Though of course that's not guaranteed inescapable, but then no prison is.

In the particular circumstance of Anders, though, that's not actually practical, since handing him over to the Templars will surely just result in them executing him anyway. So yeah, that's really the only way to deal with him.

[Beowulf DW]

1) "Didn't want?" You're acting as though every other mage in all of Thedas was a shrinking violet who didn't want things to come to a head, who was content with wearing their yoke indefinitely. That Anders was the only one who had lost friends, lovers and family, and who had had enough. Yet after things kick off we see that the mages are more than willing to go on the offensive now that they know it's win or bust. They are not merely reluctantly defending themselves - they are attacking Orlesian balls and trying to assassinate the Divine herself. And at the end of Asunder, when they have a chance to vote to end the war, they don't. Gonna blame that on Anders too?

It's clear to me that he was not the only one that wanted a revolution - he was merely the first one with the power and opportunity to pull something like this off. Other mages, like Adrian, would have eagerly done the same.

Again, so focused on the mages? I'm referring to the innocent civilians that will likely be recruited as Fireball-fodder. You can't honestly tell me that you don't think the templars are above such things. And what about the psychos like Anders that demand that people choose a side when they'd rather go on living? Taking that choice away from people just shows me once more how arrogant Anders has become.

[Jayngfet]

"Deteriorating?" He did what he set out to do. The struggle between him and Justice, what little there was, is over. "This is the Justice all mages have awaited." Done. Finito. Fait accompli. What deterioration could you possibly mean?

People don't just go away after meeting one goal. Justice and Anders both existed before the plan and they do after, even if only in corpse form. Justice is a fade spirit used to solving problems at the edge of a blade and now there's a war about to break out.

There is no retirement plan, and Justice explicitly says he won't stop until the Templars and anyone else can't possibly do anything about the mages again, and he's perfectly happy having Anders die in the process. The moment he slipped away he was likley to attack another circle, or else attack the Qun and it's followers, or else keep picking fights he knows he has little chance of surviving and his helpers get stuck dealing with or dying from. So long as mages have any enemies Anders and Justice will attack them, and damn who gets hurt in the way.

This was always his plan. He says this point blank in your presence even before he became vengance. Anders changes over the course of 2 and obviously isn't the same person he was before, and he wasn't really the picture of stability starting out.

We're dealing with two powerful, unstable people who won't stop, ever, unless someone puts them down.

[Psyren]

So yeah, that's really the only way to deal with him.

Assuming he needs to be "dealt with," i.e. for reasons other than animal vengeance.

Again, so focused on the mages? I'm referring to the innocent civilians that will likely be recruited as Fireball-fodder. You can't honestly tell me that you don't think the templars are above such things.

If the Templars as an organization are indeed willing to stoop to methods like that, then all the more reason to wipe them out of existence entirely, and very likely the Chantry with them if it condones that kind of behavior. You don't wring your hands and wish tyrannies away, you fight them with blood and fire until they break.

And what about the psychos like Anders that demand that people choose a side when they'd rather go on living? Taking that choice away from people just shows me once more how arrogant Anders has become.

What about the innocent mages being murdered and lobotomized while people go on living? Or the templars gradually being turned into stormtrooper lyrium junkies? Anders didn't start this situation, he's just the one willing to finish it.

People don't just go away after meeting one goal. Justice and Anders both existed before the plan and they do after, even if only in corpse form. Justice is a fade spirit used to solving problems at the edge of a blade and now there's a war about to break out.

There is no retirement plan, and Justice explicitly says he won't stop until the Templars and anyone else can't possibly do anything about the mages again, and he's perfectly happy having Anders die in the process. The moment he slipped away he was likley to attack another circle, or else attack the Qun and it's followers, or else keep picking fights he knows he has little chance of surviving and his helpers get stuck dealing with or dying from. So long as mages have any enemies Anders and Justice will attack them, and damn who gets hurt in the way.

This was always his plan. He says this point blank in your presence even before he became vengance. Anders changes over the course of 2 and obviously isn't the same person he was before, and he wasn't really the picture of stability starting out.

We're dealing with two powerful, unstable people who won't stop, ever, unless someone puts them down.

He did stop. And sat with his back to you. He only rejoins the conflict if you allow him to, unless of course you set about trying to slaughter the mages, in which case he's well within his rights to fight you.

And in that latter case, when he does find you again? Not a trace of Justice/Vengeance/whoever. He is calm and perfectly in control. You're trying to justify your perversion of justice by painting a picture that does not exist.

[Xondoure]

I do not share that viewpoint in the slightest. Trying to stop something and failing is not equivalent to allowing it to continue.


I'm not going to comment on real-world events, since that skirts board rules, and I do not necessarily know the full history behind them. As for Andraste, I have little knowledge of what exactly she did besides lead a war - and as I've already said, a war I'm fine with here, given the cause is just. It's murdering innocents that's the line that I do not believe should ever be crossed.

To quote sir Jorah Mormont: "Have you ever seen a war where innocents didn't die by the thousands?"

[Ajadea]

Another reason potentially to keep Anders around is that he seems to at least temper Justice slightly. Knifing Anders kills Anders definitely. But it's been proven that Justice can a) possess a corpse and b) hop between bodies. For all we know, stabbing Anders just makes Justice even angrier and harder to track down and control.

[Divayth Fyr]

Wow. I'll respond to the rest of it later, but seriously, wow, this has to be one of the most ridiculous, nonsensical analogies I've ever seen.

"As a punishement you will be sent to a place where you'll continue to do your thing". Applies both to Anders being sent to fight in the war and to the pedophile sent to the kindergarten. I did choose that analogy for the shock value, but the basic principle for both "punishements" is the same.

Now, if you forced him to fight on the Templar's side, than yes, that would be a punishement. Though I doubt they would want that.

...And apparently it was just as bad before the edit too. Truly amazing.

It was almost the same.

Let the mages police each other. Execute heinous criminals, like you would with anyone else. The lobotomy serves no purpose except to intimidate the survivors.

So a mage Hawke would be justified in killing Anders. Works for mine

Again, so focused on the mages? I'm referring to the innocent civilians that will likely be recruited as Fireball-fodder. You can't honestly tell me that you don't think the templars are above such things

Civilians will also get hurt in the conflict as bystanders - as it happens during wars. And more likely than not when some mages get desperate for supplies (it's not like they could get enough of them before the fight, and what will they do when someone tries to prevent them from taking something?).

He did stop. And sat with his back to you. He only rejoins the conflict if you allow him to, unless of course you set about trying to slaughter the mages, in which case he's well within his rights to fight you.

Didn't his plan include the death of those mages anyway? Hard to imagine Meredith wanting something less after he nukes the chantry, and hard to imagine that they'd win in a city literally ruled by the templars...

[Beowulf DW]

Assuming he needs to be "dealt with," i.e. for reasons other than animal vengeance.

He's a murderer that is unrepentant and needs to be removed from the population. Killing him is quite possibly the only feasible way of doing this.

And I'd advise against suggesting that we haven't removed Vengeance from the picture. As we've established already, when we kill abominations, they tend to stay dead. There has been no instance of a demon escaping from a corpse and coming back to take revenge on its killer. If that could happen, it probably would have already, either in one of the games or the lore itself.

[Zevox]

Assuming he needs to be "dealt with," i.e. for reasons other than animal vengeance.

He committed a horrible crime - of course he needs to be held accountable for that. That's one of the basic foundations of civilization itself. You do not simply allow someone to get away with murder.

To quote sir Jorah Mormont: "Have you ever seen a war where innocents didn't die by the thousands?"

Perhaps, but I can't control the actions of every person involved - just as I can't when there isn't a war going on. I can sure as hell call for anyone who crosses that line to be held accountable and appropriately punished, however. Such as Anders.

[Avilan the Grey]

I'm sorry, but I just can't... get... how anyone would think Anders doesn't deserve severe punishment. Just like I cannot fathom the mindset that defends terrorism. Especially not against innocents.

I know we are just arguing in circles but I am desperately trying to understand the mindset, I guess.

[Ajadea]

And I'd advise against suggesting that we haven't removed Vengeance from the picture. As we've established already, when we kill abominations, they tend to stay dead. There has been no instance of a demon escaping from a corpse and coming back to take revenge on its killer. If that could happen, it probably would have already, either in one of the games or the lore itself.

The Wraith's Vengeance questline doesn't count? You kill the thing four times before it stays dead: normal form, ogre commander, ghostly ogre commander, warriors in the Avvar crypt.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'm sorry, but I just can't... get... how anyone would think Anders doesn't deserve severe punishment. Just like I cannot fathom the mindset that defends terrorism. Especially not against innocents.

I know we are just arguing in circles but I am desperately trying to understand the mindset, I guess.

Who's arguing that? I don't think there's a single person on this board who didn't take the route to kill him after what he did.

[Giggling Ghast]

The Wraith's Vengeance questline doesn't count? You kill the thing four times before it stays dead: normal form, ogre commander, ghostly ogre commander, warriors in the Avvar crypt.

Technically, only three. The ogre commander is just an ogre commander.

Also, he wasn't so much a demon as a blood mage that had transformed himself into an immortal wraith.

[Divayth Fyr]

Who's arguing that? I don't think there's a single person on this board who didn't take the route to kill him after what he did.

Did you miss Psyren's posts?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I must have. I didn't realize that was what was being said.

[Lord Raziere]

Who's arguing that? I don't think there's a single person on this board who didn't take the route to kill him after what he did.

......

hmm......

I'm trying to remember if I killed Anders or not after what he did.....

but I was on the Mage side.....and I'm like "screw you Templars for suppressing the awesome magic stuff" and I was probably going to face some big boss that I needed all the help I could get for, and he was kind of one of my main mages, so probably not good idea to kill him, since he was good at healing and you don't get rid of your white mage lightly, that only leads to you dying. that and some of the Templars had advocated for this "final solution" thing so....they weren't looking all that good right there....

so I PROBABLY didn't kill him, I even persuaded the elf-anti-mage guy of the party to join my side afterwards for the cause of fighting freedom against slavery.....I'm not one who likes the Chantry much anyways....so....I'm pretty sure I saved all for the Mage side as I possibly could......dunno, my memories a little foggy on the specifics of DA2.....

that and I'm pretty sure I did some quest with Anders before it happened that involved sneaking into the church and him doing something that I didn't see so....I guess I was kind of complicit in him blowing up the Chantry? oh well, in for a penny, in for a dollar....

Edit: yup, let Anders live and persuaded Fenris to join mage side, just needed to check....

[ShinyRocks]

Just finished my Hypocrite Hawke playthrough. (Mage, sides with Templars, romances Fenris, kills Anders, shuts down Merrill at every opportunity.) It was quite fun.

There was a really interesting conversation between Isabela and Anders - she was saying there's no such thing as Justice (the concept, not the spirit), and says to him 'What if you freed the mages, but killed lots of innocent people. Wouldn't they deserve justice, too?' and he just says 'Yes'. I really do think he expects to die for it. Also, the bit where he asks you to gather the materials for the 'potion', and says 'Just combine the ingredients and boom! Justice and I are free.' Sneaky foreshadowing writers! Boom indeed.

First playthrough, I didn't kill him. I really don't want to get into the debate, because it's so circular, but my logic was basically 'redeem yourself' rather than 'you must be punished'. Also I'd romanced him. But that's my real-world approach. Redemption/rehabilitation is more important than punishment.

Perhaps I was just paying more attention this time, but I actually got the 'this conflict is inevitable' a lot more this time round. I still think that they shouldn't have built up your choices so much, given that their whole aim was to say 'you can't change things no matter what you do'. But I kind of like what they were aiming for; they just didn't sell it properly.

[Jayngfet]

......

hmm......

I'm trying to remember if I killed Anders or not after what he did.....

but I was on the Mage side.....and I'm like "screw you Templars for suppressing the awesome magic stuff" and I was probably going to face some big boss that I needed all the help I could get for, and he was kind of one of my main mages, so probably not good idea to kill him, since he was good at healing and you don't get rid of your white mage lightly, that only leads to you dying. that and some of the Templars had advocated for this "final solution" thing so....they weren't looking all that good right there....

so I PROBABLY didn't kill him, I even persuaded the elf-anti-mage guy of the party to join my side afterwards for the cause of fighting freedom against slavery.....I'm not one who likes the Chantry much anyways....so....I'm pretty sure I saved all for the Mage side as I possibly could......dunno, my memories a little foggy on the specifics of DA2.....

that and I'm pretty sure I did some quest with Anders before it happened that involved sneaking into the church and him doing something that I didn't see so....I guess I was kind of complicit in him blowing up the Chantry? oh well, in for a penny, in for a dollar....

Edit: yup, let Anders live and persuaded Fenris to join mage side, just needed to check....

Don't you get Bethany back at that point anyway?

As far as I'm concerned I have a much better white mage that isn't insane to replace him, so off with his head.

[Beowulf DW]

The Wraith's Vengeance questline doesn't count? You kill the thing four times before it stays dead: normal form, ogre commander, ghostly ogre commander, warriors in the Avvar crypt.

I admit that I forgot about that one, but it's one specimen in...what? Hundreds that we've encountered over the course of the games?

Technically, only three. The ogre commander is just an ogre commander.

Also, he wasn't so much a demon as a blood mage that had transformed himself into an immortal wraith.

Well, now I'm not sure what to think.

Besides this instance, we've seen plenty of examples where killing a demon in its various forms, even when the demon is one of the Forbidden Ones, results in the demon's permanent destruction, with the exceptions seeming to be the ones smart enough to have contingencies in place. And once those contingencies run out, they still die.

[Giggling Ghast]

Besides this instance, we've seen plenty of examples where killing a demon in its various forms, even when the demon is one of the Forbidden Ones, results in the demon's permanent destruction, with the exceptions seeming to be the ones smart enough to have contingencies in place. And once those contingencies run out, they still die.

This is a bit vague. It's suggested that at least some slain demons are sent back to the Fade and are reduced to a wisp, or simply reduced in power. That's why sealing demons away in relics like the Black Vials seems to be a popular option.

In any case, the spirit from the Wraith's Vengeance was kind of a special case, because he specifically planned to send the bodies of the dead against his Avaar kin.

"Kiveal, nothing will hold me. These walls will rot before I expire. When they do, I shall defame your gods, call your mortal shells to serve me, and hunt down every last one of your kinsmen, Avvar and dwarf."

[Rodin]

I believe my Rogue Hawke let Anders live, but that was really because she was the female equivalent of Belkar. Chick would stab you for a copper piece, and really didn't care about the Mage/Templar conflict - she was in it for the money all the way. There wasn't any reward offered for shanking Anders, and he was an "in" to potentially profitable future ventures, so why not let him tag along?

[ScrambledBrains]

I believe my Rogue Hawke let Anders live, but that was really because she was the female equivalent of Belkar.

This line amuses me because I've just made my own female Rogue Hawke...whose name is Haley. And she's focusing on Archery.

[Psyren]

*waves hello*

"As a punishement you will be sent to a place where you'll continue to do your thing". Applies both to Anders being sent to fight in the war and to the pedophile sent to the kindergarten. I did choose that analogy for the shock value, but the basic principle for both "punishements" is the same.

Now, if you forced him to fight on the Templar's side, than yes, that would be a punishement. Though I doubt they would want that.

This is not even close to true. Whatever you think of his methods, Anders' goal was noble - to free the mages from bondage - whereas a pedophile's goal is simply carnal exploitation. Seeing the goal of liberation through to the end and therefore making sure that the innocents sacrificed didn't die in vain is the only way I could see doing them, and the mages still doing battle, justice.

As for forcing him to fight for the Templars, why would I possibly want to help them? They are part of the problem.

So a mage Hawke would be justified in killing Anders. Works for mine

He's a murderer that is unrepentant and needs to be removed from the population. Killing him is quite possibly the only feasible way of doing this.

He committed a horrible crime - of course he needs to be held accountable for that. That's one of the basic foundations of civilization itself. You do not simply allow someone to get away with murder.

If ever I were to judge and kill Anders for what he had done, it would be after the war when the mages are free and he has had the chance to fight on their behalf against the Templars as hard as he could. Let them then stand in judgment of their brother and determine whether his actions were necessary, or he went too far. And if that entails the risk that he could escape (despite showing no inclination to do so) or cause further destruction during the war (war is hell), then so be it.

Didn't his plan include the death of those mages anyway? Hard to imagine Meredith wanting something less after he nukes the chantry, and hard to imagine that they'd win in a city literally ruled by the templars...

His plan depended on the destruction of their Circle, to show the world that such constructs were now useless. The mages inside would be free to carve a path to liberty and, if possible, flee it. It's not like they have any pressing need to stay in Kirkwall, or leave their phylacteries intact for that matter.

I'm sorry, but I just can't... get... how anyone would think Anders doesn't deserve severe punishment. Just like I cannot fathom the mindset that defends terrorism. Especially not against innocents.

I know we are just arguing in circles but I am desperately trying to understand the mindset, I guess.

Because he's the only one who gives enough of a damn about the mages to truly do something about their situation. Because his absorption of a spirit gives him the power he needs to be a champion for their cause. Because butchering him right then and there will not only do absolutely nothing for the mages, it will increase the chances that they lose the coming war and that those who died in that Chantry and the subsequent slaughter died for no reason. And finally, because both Meredith and Orsino wanted me to do it. I have no problem spitting in both of their eyes.

[Avilan the Grey]

Because he's the only one who gives enough of a damn about the mages to truly do something about their situation. Because his absorption of a spirit gives him the power he needs to be a champion for their cause. Because butchering him right then and there will not only do absolutely nothing for the mages, it will increase the chances that they lose the coming war and that those who died in that Chantry and the subsequent slaughter died for no reason. And finally, because both Meredith and Orsino wanted me to do it. I have no problem spitting in both of their eyes.

1. This is a lie. He uses them, to the point of murdering them, to further HIS cause. There is no "Their" here. He might hate their situation, but to argue that he cares about them is an outright lie. He only sees them as symbols and doesn't care about them as living beings at all. He merely see them as tools to further HIS goals "on their behalf".
In short, Anders is a realistically portrayed political extremist and terrorist, he acts EXACTLY like terrorists do in the real world, with the same hollow justification and the same illusion of heroism.

2. Butchering Dispensing justice on him (fixed it for you) right now is the only viable option, since he otherwise would escape. And it is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT if it "does something for the mages" or not.

3. Completely irrelevant.

[Divayth Fyr]

As for forcing him to fight for the Templars, why would I possibly want to help them? They are part of the problem.

Because the talk was about a punishement for him, not giving him a medal, pat on the back and saying "good job, do your thing"

If ever I were to judge and kill Anders for what he had done, it would be after the war when the mages are free and he has had the chance to fight on their behalf against the Templars as hard as he could. Let them then stand in judgment of their brother and determine whether his actions were necessary, or he went too far. And if that entails the risk that he could escape (despite showing no inclination to do so) or cause further destruction during the war (war is hell), then so be it.

And what would give them the authority to judge Anders' actions? If Hawke doesn't have it, neither would the mages.

His plan depended on the destruction of their Circle, to show the world that such constructs were now useless. The mages inside would be free to carve a path to liberty and, if possible, flee it. It's not like they have any pressing need to stay in Kirkwall, or leave their phylacteries intact for that matter.

How many would survive and be able to flee? Going with everything we could see I'd say very, very few. Which was to be expected (unlike Meredith bringing out her magical blade).

And finally, because both Meredith and Orsino wanted me to do it. I have no problem spitting in both of their eyes.

I forgot, who was talking about petty vengeance...

1. This is a lie. He uses them, to the point of murdering them, to further HIS cause.

Anders is a Thedas Reaper - he saves mages by killing them, just like the Reapers save organics by killing them.

[Zevox]

If ever I were to judge and kill Anders for what he had done, it would be after the war when the mages are free and he has had the chance to fight on their behalf against the Templars as hard as he could. Let them then stand in judgment of their brother and determine whether his actions were necessary, or he went too far. And if that entails the risk that he could escape (despite showing no inclination to do so) or cause further destruction during the war (war is hell), then so be it.

Yes, you clearly intend for him to get objective, rational judges, there. Especially given you're outright saying that whether he's punished for actions should depend more on whether these people feel they were "necessary," not on whether he did it and on whether it was a heinous crime for which literally anyone in any society would be sentenced to either life imprisonment or death.

[Beowulf DW]

If we strip things down to their bare bones, it seems to me that we're debating justification, necessity, and whether these two are one and the same.