Strong Female Protagonist (webcomic)

[Reverent-One]

That's the point though, it wouldn't. This is a text book example of Assault, and would warrant at least an arrest, and most likely a month or two in prison.
Also... exactly.

Acting in defense of someone else changes things.

[razorfloss]

well thanks for starting the thread i'm enjoying the comic alot

[Avilan the Grey]

Acting in defense of someone else changes things.

That's my point / question: Is it really legal to physically abuse someone without proof, if you believe you act in the defense of another in the US?
In Sweden this would be a clear cut case of assault, and lead to prison.

[Reverent-One]

That's my point / question: Is it really legal to physically abuse someone without proof, if you believe you act in the defense of another in the US?
In Sweden this would be a clear cut case of assault, and lead to prison.

Really? Someone restraining someone they think is attempting to rape someone would clearly go to prison? Wikipedia says that defense of others falls under the category self-defense in Sweden too.

[Cikomyr]

Really? Someone restraining someone they think is attempting to rape someone would clearly go to prison? Wikipedia says that defense of others falls under the category self-defense in Sweden too.

Starting to beat on someone just because you suspect them of rape-ous intents is probably not okay.

but confronting that suspect, and eventually resorting to violence to prevent him to go through with his actions is probably along the blurred line of "okayish". Obviously, she was a bit quick to resort to the throat-clutching, but it still was not her first methods to tackle the problem.

The speed at which she eventually resorted to violence is the only weak link in her argument. But that is extremely subjective. Someone nerdish and weak physically going for the sucker punch against a bigger opponent is understandable; as a surprise attack is the only way for him to properly defend the other person. But Mega Girl? She could just have stalled him indefinitely just by pushing him back and prevent him to leave the party until she had had a proper answer.

[Alcibiades]

A citizen's arrest turns into assault in most places when you use an unnecessary amount of force. That's what our point boils down to. It wasn't necessary to cause physical pain to the guy in my eyes.

When I made my first post I didn't really intend to make this that big of a deal, I just thought it was interesting to note that she could've handled the situation better and that what caused it was her habit of violence, a flaw that she owned up to two issues ago. One can wonder how people would've responded if they hadn't been upset at seeing Megagirl strangling their friend, too.
(I know it's a sensitive subject so I'm going to stress again that all those other people are still jerks and are responsible for their own actions, I'm just being critical of the main character)

[Reverent-One]

A citizen's arrest turns into assault in most places when you use an unnecessary amount of force. That's what our point boils down to. It wasn't necessary to cause physical pain to the guy in my eyes.

Sure, but like I said, unless you think that ANY amount of force is unnecessary in this scenario, she didn't do much wrong in that regard.

[Fjolnir]

Considering someone slaughtered a bunch of accused rapists earlier that day, her actions here have upcoming consequences...

[The Glyphstone]

Sure, but like I said, unless you think that ANY amount of force is unnecessary in this scenario, she didn't do much wrong in that regard.

You're arguing that the only possible levels of force are 'none' and 'incapacitating/potentially lethal injury', which is spurious logic and a big part of why people are arguing with you. Throats are very squishy and fragile things, and an incapacitating force applied there would be harmlessly immobilizing if applied to, say, a bicep. Force wasn't inappropriate. The inappropriate part was how much/where she applied that force, particularly since she was operating solely on a hunch or suspicion.

[Reverent-One]

You're arguing that the only possible levels of force are 'none' and 'incapacitating/potentially lethal injury', which is spurious logic and a big part of why people are arguing with you. Throats are very squishy and fragile things, and an incapacitating force applied there would be harmlessly immobilizing if applied to, say, a bicep. Force wasn't inappropriate. The inappropriate part was how much/where she applied that force, particularly since she was operating solely on a hunch or suspicion.

No, I'm arguing that she's in enough control that there wasn't a chance of lethal injury, which means she applied enough force to restrain him without a risk of serious harm, similar to how she would have if she grabbed his arm instead. She could inflict an 'incapacitating/potentially lethal injury' to his arm as well if she felt like it, so the fact that she could hypothetically choose to inflict that to his neck isn't noteworthy because she didn't make said choice.

[Avilan the Grey]

No, I'm arguing that she's in enough control that there wasn't a chance of lethal injury, which means she applied enough force to restrain him without a risk of serious harm,

Irrelevant. Lifting someone by the throat is in itself risking severe neck injuries (seriously, no matter how often Batman does it). The neck is the weakest link on a human body. Not only that, but she squeezes too. This is most definitely far more force than is neccesary. She is definitely committing a violent crime in this instance (at a minimum Assault, but a jury might even find her guilty of additional things such as reckles endangerment, or maybe even attempted murder, depending on how a persecutor would paint the event. Again, lifting a person like she does is very very dangerous and almost certainly leads to damage ranging from whiplash to permanent paralyzation).
Also, what she should have done was to just talk to the guy, and if he didn't come up with a reasonable explanation call the cops on him. If she really really felt it neccesary to keep him from leaving, just grab both his arms and stand there. She is strong enough that he can't move at that point. At all.

[Reverent-One]

Irrelevant. Lifting someone by the throat is in itself risking severe neck injuries (seriously, no matter how often Batman does it). The neck is the weakest link on a human body. Not only that, but she squeezes too. This is most definitely far more force than is neccesary. She is definitely committing a violent crime in this instance (at a minimum Assault, but a jury might even find her guilty of additional things such as reckles endangerment, or maybe even attempted murder, depending on how a persecutor would paint the event. Again, lifting a person like she does is very very dangerous and almost certainly leads to damage ranging from whiplash to permanent paralyzation).
Also, what she should have done was to just talk to the guy, and if he didn't come up with a reasonable explanation call the cops on him. If she really really felt it neccesary to keep him from leaving, just grab both his arms and stand there. She is strong enough that he can't move at that point. At all.

And yet, despite this terrible risk you're claiming, he's fine. I'm going with the idea that the person with, what? years? of experience using their powers knows what they're doing better than armchair quarterbacks on the internet (out-of-universe ones at that).

EDIT: According to the TVTropes page on this concept,

Prior to the popularity of the Chokeslam, many wrestlers were known to simply lift their opponents up by the neck and shake them about, usually as a power move. Both faces and heels used this move. This was a textbook move for Hulk Hogan, who was known to use this move multiple times on Randy Savage (during matches) and on manager Bobby Heenan (when Heenan attempted to interfere in his matches); Hogan also used this many times in his heel days back in the early 1980s as a power move, with then WWF Champion Bob Backlund a frequent victim in addition to the long line of jobbers.

So the move is not so automatically dangerous that experienced individuals are afraid to do it.

[Avilan the Grey]

Still doesn't change the fact that she is committing a felony.

[Reverent-One]

Still doesn't change the fact that she is committing a felony.

Acting in defense of another falls under self-defense justifications in most places, so no.

[Dragonus45]

Here is the real question, is the author aware of how serious something like that happening to a persons neck is. If they aren't then it could be a case of them wanting to portray her holding him still. If they are then it could be more showing of the protagonists admired flaw of having anger and violence issues. I think we might be putting more thought in here than is necessary.

[Veridis Quo]

Most law enforcement organizations have guidelines about how much force is needed for certain situations. Called the Use of Force Continuum in the states. Allison may not be a cop but I think the same applies to how Allison chose to handle and escalate the situation. At the point where she had the guy stopped and was questioning him (Verbalization) she was using the right amount of force, he wasn't running away nor was he endangering the girl he was escorting. (beyond what he intended to do anyways)
Her lifting him by his neck (Empty hand control) is where I think she exceeded the right amount of force. Even if she has the training and control to not kill the guy and at worse leave a few bruises on his neck that wasn't the right way to go about things.

She only seemed to lift him to get the attention of the other party goers and I don't see why she couldn't have just planted herself in front of him or the door and get the same results by shouting.

[Shogo]

Huh. So this argument is still going.

I'll just say that I agree with the idea that she used more force than was necessary. As mentioned, there were many better alternatives to grabbing the dude by the throat and choking/lifting him. And, all things considered, I'm pretty sure she's even been trained for it.

That being said . . . **** happens in the heat of the moment. Nobody is perfect. People can get carried away. (Need I remind you of how she accidentally killed her Professor's lover?)

[Avilan the Grey]

Acting in defense of another falls under self-defense justifications in most places, so no.

1. The creep has not done ANYTHING illegal (yet).
2. She is clearly using FAR more violence than is required.

which leads to

3. She is the criminal in this scenario.

[Reverent-One]

1. The creep has not done ANYTHING illegal (yet).

She has reason to believe he was going to. Stopping someone from making off with someone to rape them is defending that other person. He doesn't have to be in the process of raping her to justify stepping in.

2. She is clearly using FAR more violence than is required.

And IMO, she's clearly not using too much violence. Restraining someone who's trying to make off with someone, in a way that doesn't cause them injury, is acceptable force for the scenario. But we've been over this point before, so I don't expect to change your mind on it this time. Just pointing out how your point is subjective.

[The Troubadour]

And yet, despite this terrible risk you're claiming, he's fine. I'm going with the idea that the person with, what? years? of experience using their powers knows what they're doing better than armchair quarterbacks on the internet (out-of-universe ones at that).

She specifically said that super accuracy isn't a part of her anomaly, that she has killed people before (presumably in the heat of battle), and that she constantly breaks things by accident.

Here is the real question, is the author aware of how serious something like that happening to a persons neck is. (...) If they are then it could be more showing of the protagonists admired flaw of having anger and violence issues.

I think this is the point, actually. For all that Violet really is a poseur, I think she's right about Allison having issues she hasn't properly dealt with yet.

[Frozen_Feet]

Acting in defense of someone else changes things.

Not this much. Since there was not (yet) any threat of violence, Finnish law would've only allowed to hold him back by pushing his chest etc. Even a bouncer wouldn't have been allowed to use a chokehold unless the perp was resisting lesser means.

Sure, but like I said, unless you think that ANY amount of force is unnecessary in this scenario, she didn't do much wrong in that regard.

How many people do you know who can lift a person bigger than them up with one hand? She is using more force than any normal girl of her size would be capable of using, and you're claming that isn't too much.

---

All in all, I'm following the current scene with great interest. At the moment, it seems to be shaping up so that everyone is at fault for something. Miles is guilty of being a predatory creep, Alison is guilty of using unnecessary force, and the drunk girl is guilty for irresponsible drinking. I hope they explore all of these thoroughly.

[Veridis Quo]

All in all, I'm following the current scene with great interest. At the moment, it seems to be shaping up so that everyone is at fault for something. Miles is guilty of being a predatory creep, Alison is guilty of using unnecessary force, and the drunk girl is guilty for irresponsible drinking. I hope they explore all of these thoroughly.

Today's page addresses the drunk girl's (Her name is Daphne) role in this situation.

Spoiler

Show

I agree with Alison that regardless of how Daphne chooses to act at a party it doesn't mean that others should take advantage of her sexually or otherwise. But the reality is getting so drunk that you lose control of your ability to actions or reasoning capabilities is dangerous no matter who you are. Daphne's friends have also established that this isn't the first time she has gotten this drunk before without them being around so this is very reckless behavior on Daphne's behalf.

[Dragonus45]

1. The creep has not done ANYTHING illegal (yet).
2. She is clearly using FAR more violence than is required.

which leads to

3. She is the criminal in this scenario.

(My bold for emphasis.)

In the real world or in real life yea you would be right there are plenty of legit reasons he might have acted like he did, but this is story being told by someone who has some clearly defined ideological views. Not to get into any discussion ABOUT those views we do have to remember what they are and acknowledged that in this story this guy is clearly going to have been guilty of exactly what it looked like he was going to do. Personally I think the issue of her using excessive force is a clear one that the story has set up as something she struggles with, but I also wonder if the creator is as aware of how dangerous holding a person by the neck is or if they just had her do it because it's something a lot of superheroes do when they are angry.

[Kelper]

1. I agree with everyone who said, that Alison used too much force and in fact, committed a crime. (At least, since we started to fling our different national law codes around, according to german law).
2. I agree, that Violet also has a point in saying, that Alison has issues, due to her superpowers and her former life as a superhero.
3. HOWEVER, I would like to point out, that Violet clearly just brings this up, because she doesn't want to face the truth about her friend Miles.
4. Also, Miles DID plan to rape the drunk girl. So much seems obvious. Attempted rape IS a crime too.

And, in my opinion concerning the severity of a crime:

attempt to rape someone >
do nothing to stop a rape attempt, because the rapist is your friend >
stop the rape attempt, but slightly harm the future rapist

In my book, everyone on that roof acted wrong. And Alison is the least bad one.

[The Glyphstone]

Though 'planning to rape' and 'attempted rape' are different things, at least outside of 1984. I agree it's obvious what he was intending, and Allison's the least skeevy person on the roof, but thoughtcrimes aren't prosecutable...even less in a world where there are literally people who can read minds.

[Avilan the Grey]

attempt to rape someone

The point is that this is nowhere near "attempted rape". At least not YET.
Pre-emptive arrests and punishment is illegal in all civilized countries for a reason. To use a far less controversial example: The cops cannot arrest a person carrying car keys while drunk, because he might be driving under the influence later.

She might very well be right about everything in this scenario, but it still does mean that from a legal perspective, she is the ONLY criminal on that roof at that point.

[AtlanteanTroll]

She has reason to believe he was going to. Stopping someone from making off with someone to rape them is defending that other person. He doesn't have to be in the process of raping her to justify stepping in.

And reasons can well be flawed. Terribly so.

[Guancyto]

Goodness, a situation where a straightforwardly positive attempt to help another human being results in unintended consequences and ambiguous legality?

Not in my superhero comics, good sir! Jimmies. Officially. Rustled.

[Reverent-One]

How many people do you know who can lift a person bigger than them up with one hand? She is using more force than any normal girl of her size would be capable of using, and you're claming that isn't too much.

She's restricting him without causing more than some discomfort, regardless of how many foot-pounds of energy that is. A more normal amount of energy that's applied with the intention of hurting him, on the other hand, could actually inflict serious harm, which is why that's a poor basis of measurement without looking at how the energy is applied.

And reasons can well be flawed. Terribly so.

They can be. Hers weren't. Miles was very obviously sketchy, utterly failed her verbal challenge, and most anyone could realize he was abducting the girl.

[Avilan the Grey]

She's restricting him without causing more than some discomfort, regardless of how many foot-pounds of energy that is. A more normal amount of energy that's applied with the intention of hurting him, on the other hand, could actually inflict serious harm, which is why that's a poor basis of measurement without looking at how the energy is applied..

You don't lift somebody by the throat unless you intend to hurt. It IS very painful and it IS potentially disastrious (if a single disc in his neck slips, he might be paralyzed for life). ...Or have watched too many movies.