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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Strong Female Protagonist (webcomic)

    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    The point is that this is nowhere near "attempted rape". At least not YET.
    Ok, I guess you're right. From a legal perspective our heroine is the ONLY criminal on the roof. Still, I say she was also the only MORAL person on the roof, even if her moral might be a bit flawed. But she's trying.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelper View Post
    Ok, I guess you're right. From a legal perspective our heroine is the ONLY criminal on the roof. Still, I say she was also the only MORAL person on the roof, even if her moral might be a bit flawed. But she's trying.
    Hence we go back to "she should have handlet it so much better". Her first step would have been to call the cops. Second to call the girl's friends. Third to separete him from her, and Fourth to just hold him in place. Seriously, two hands on his shoulders and he could not move. At all. But I guess (HOPE! actually) that the author will use this not only to illustrate the obvious anvil but also the main protagonist's impulse control problem. She has always resorted to violence, it's second nature to her.
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Strong Female Protagonist (webcomic)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    She's restricting him without causing more than some discomfort, regardless of how many foot-pounds of energy that is. A more normal amount of energy that's applied with the intention of hurting him, on the other hand, could actually inflict serious harm, which is why that's a poor basis of measurement without looking at how the energy is applied.
    Excuse me?

    Look at the god-damn panel. His eyes are bulging out and his face is changing color. That, my friend, is the face of someone being choked out of air. If you think stopping someone from breathing is not causing them harm, you have a lot to learn.

    It'd do you good, really, if you grabbed your own throat as hard as you can just so you know what it feels like. Then you can talk more clearly about "some discomfort".
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    You don't lift somebody by the throat unless you intend to hurt. It IS very painful and it IS potentially disastrious (if a single disc in his neck slips, he might be paralyzed for life). ...Or have watched too many movies.
    My response to that is the same as the last time you brought that up a few posts ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    Hence we go back to "she should have handlet it so much better". Her first step would have been to call the cops. Second to call the girl's friends. Third to separete him from her, and Fourth to just hold him in place. Seriously, two hands on his shoulders and he could not move. At all. But I guess (HOPE! actually) that the author will use this not only to illustrate the obvious anvil but also the main protagonist's impulse control problem. She has always resorted to violence, it's second nature to her.
    So her first steps are to let him get away while she calls people (including people she doesn't even know) before preventing him from leaving with the girl. Either that or you are assuming that the universe runs on "Talking is a free action" unlike ours. And for the record, she didn't immeadiately resort to violence, she talked to him first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    Excuse me?

    Look at the god-damn panel. His eyes are bulging out and his face is changing color. That, my friend, is the face of someone being choked out of air. If you think stopping someone from breathing is not causing them harm, you have a lot to learn.

    It'd do you good, really, if you grabbed your own throat as hard as you can just so you know what it feels like. Then you can talk more clearly about "some discomfort".
    Look at the next "god-damn" page, where he's clearly immediately able to talk and is unharmed. Stopping someone from breathing permanently is certainly causing serious harm (or more to the point, death), doing so for a few seconds is merely discomfort. I can actually remember taking torso blows that left me unable to breathe for a short time, and while I definitely did not like the experince, I can't categorize it as anything more than that.
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Strong Female Protagonist (webcomic)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    So her first steps are to let him get away while she calls people (including people she doesn't even know) before preventing him from leaving with the girl. Either that or you are assuming that the universe runs on "Talking is a free action" unlike ours. And for the record, she didn't immeadiately resort to violence, she talked to him first.

    Look at the next "god-damn" page, where he's clearly immediately able to talk and is unharmed. Stopping someone from breathing permanently is certainly causing serious harm (or more to the point, death), doing so for a few seconds is merely discomfort. I can actually remember taking torso blows that left me unable to breathe for a short time, and while I definitely did not like the experince, I can't categorize it as anything more than that.
    She should tell him to stay put while calling the cops.
    Other than that... he has the right to leave. As long as he doesn't take the girl with him he has not done anything wrong. Yet.

    As for your last paragraph... First of all, you were a victim of assault. Second, NOT the same thing. And third, again, what she did is still highly illegal. It is a felony.
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  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    She should tell him to stay put while calling the cops.
    Other than that... he has the right to leave. As long as he doesn't take the girl with him he has not done anything wrong. Yet.
    The problem with the bolded part is that he was trying to take the girl with him. You listed seperating them as the third thing Alison should have done, after giving him plenty of time to leave with the girl by making several phone calls.

    As for your last paragraph... First of all, you were a victim of assault. Second, NOT the same thing. And third, again, what she did is still highly illegal. It is a felony.
    First of all, I'm pretty sure unintentional hits while playing sports aren't assault.

    Second, not being able to breathe is not being able to breathe, whether it's because of diaphram paralysis or throat constriction. Either way you're trying to inhale but your lungs aren't getting air.

    Third, again, acting in defense of another (like preventing someone from abducting someone else) isn't a felony.

    It would only become an issue if she used excessive force, which means without an agreement on that first point, there can be no consensus on the result. If this comes back later on in the comic, and an informed person in-universe/word of god agrees with you about it, then I will change my mind. But barring that I'm going with what has been shown, which is that he wasn't hurt and this is not unintentional or due to some unremarked highly lucky break. If this doesn't occur, and you still can't accept that fact, then just write it off as one of the unrealistic points of the universe that it shares with other comic books/movies/tv shows/media. Otherwise this thread will continue circling the same point for all eternity.
    Last edited by Reverent-One; 2014-06-23 at 02:31 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Strong Female Protagonist (webcomic)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    The problem with the bolded part is that he was trying to take the girl with him. You listed seperating them as the third thing Alison should have done, after giving him plenty of time to leave with the girl by making several phone calls..
    Providing he just doesn't leave without her. If he insists on dragging her along, point 3 and 4 happens. Otherwise call the cops on him and above all call her friends to pick her up.
    Last edited by Avilan the Grey; 2014-06-23 at 02:36 PM.
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  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Strong Female Protagonist (webcomic)

    This argument still going?

    Anyway, nice to see SFP has gotten some GitP love. Definitely one of the better webcomics out there.
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  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    The problem with the bolded part is that he was trying to take the girl with him. You listed seperating them as the third thing Alison should have done, after giving him plenty of time to leave with the girl by making several phone calls.
    Here is my last thought on the matter since the discussion keeps going in circles.

    At the point in which Alison is questioning Miles, she is standing in front of him and he is no longer moving Daphne anywhere. The questioning and interventions constitute the best course of action to take in this situation because you are keeping the potential victim and criminal in one location. The point in which Alison hoists Miles up by his neck isn't caused by any attempt to flee or further harm Daphne on his part, she does this because she isn't satisfied with his responses and wants to get more information about who he is and whether or not other people know him.

    If your goal is to stop someone from leaving a party, being able to bench press trucks and standing in front of them is one of the best positions to be in. Alison chose to escalate the situation with an unneeded expression of force and in doing so made the situation less about Daphne and more about her. There were a lot of people on the roof who made poor choices and judgement calls, Alison is one of them.

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  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: Strong Female Protagonist (webcomic)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post



    They can be. Hers weren't. Miles was very obviously sketchy, utterly failed her verbal challenge, and most anyone could realize he was abducting the girl.
    In real life him having trouble remembering her name could have easily come down to he was tipsy and had trouble remembering it. His aggressive tone could easily have been an offended response to realizing what she was implying by asking him those questions in the tone she did, and she lifted him by the neck AS she asked anyone anything to confirm any suspicions. This isn't real life and the narrative says he must be guilty but lets not pretend there was no flaw in her logic
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  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: Strong Female Protagonist (webcomic)

    On top of the "too much force" argument I definitely have the same problem with the part of the story as Dragonus and agree with all the points. Yes, the guy is most likely a creep, but the author really paint this situation in pure black and white, and that doesn't fit the situation OR the rest of the comic, really.
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  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    Yes, the guy is most likely a creep, but the author really paint this situation in pure black and white, and that doesn't fit the situation OR the rest of the comic, really.
    The scene isn't over. I wouldn't pass judgement on it yet. If the last page is something to go by, the author may honestly be trying to adress the problems in Alison's attitude. Let's wait and see.

    EDIT: Reverent-One, right of self-defense does not cover situations where there is no immediate risk of physical violence. Miles was not violent, so Alison had no right to be violent towards him. Even a normal girl punching him would've been illegal, even though it would've been extremely unlikely for anyone to pay attention at that.
    Last edited by Frozen_Feet; 2014-06-24 at 07:53 AM.
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  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    In real life him having trouble remembering her name could have easily come down to he was tipsy and had trouble remembering it. His aggressive tone could easily have been an offended response to realizing what she was implying by asking him those questions in the tone she did, and she lifted him by the neck AS she asked anyone anything to confirm any suspicions. This isn't real life and the narrative says he must be guilty but lets not pretend there was no flaw in her logic
    No, her logic was pretty much dead on. He didn't have trouble remembering her name, he tried to excuse not knowing it at all. She hit on what was far and away the most likely situation. Like others have said, the only way he could have been more obvious was if he had a moustache to twirl dastardly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    EDIT: Reverent-One, right of self-defense does not cover situations where there is no immediate risk of physical violence. Miles was not violent, so Alison had no right to be violent towards him. Even a normal girl punching him would've been illegal, even though it would've been extremely unlikely for anyone to pay attention at that.
    Self defense does cover preventing someone from being kidnapped, regardless of whether that counts as "violence". Straight up attacking him like punching him may be out, sure, but restraining him so he can't abduct her is not.
    Last edited by Reverent-One; 2014-06-24 at 09:53 AM.
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  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Throat-grabbing someone is not any less violent than punching someone, nor is it more legal.
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    Default Re: Strong Female Protagonist (webcomic)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    No, her logic was pretty much dead on. He didn't have trouble remembering her name, he tried to excuse not knowing it at all. She hit on what was far and away the most likely situation. Like others have said, the only way he could have been more obvious was if he had a moustache to twirl dastardly.



    Self defense does cover preventing someone from being kidnapped, regardless of whether that counts as "violence". Straight up attacking him like punching him may be out, sure, but restraining him so he can't abduct her is not.
    I agree he needed a twirly mustache, but that's an issue of the narrative requiring him to be guilty rather than him having no possible legitimate reasons for the way he acted.

    As for restraining him the issue here is HOW she did so, personally I imagine the creator simply doesn't realize how dangerous the neck lift and would have been better served to lift him by his shirt or hold him by the arm.
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  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    Throat-grabbing someone is not any less violent than punching someone, nor is it more legal.
    Restraining someone without harming them is the same whether you grab the arm or neck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    I agree he needed a twirly mustache, but that's an issue of the narrative requiring him to be guilty rather than him having no possible legitimate reasons for the way he acted.
    It's not that he needed a twirly mustache, but that there is basically no way for him to be more suspicious without adding one. The point being that he was clearly wrong, and Alison's conclusions were reasonable and not the product of flawed logic. There's virtually always possible legitimate reasons for something, no matter how contrived, that doesn't mean that those possiblities are likely or that anyone has reasonable cause to assume those are the case.

    As for restraining him the issue here is HOW she did so, personally I imagine the creator simply doesn't realize how dangerous the neck lift and would have been better served to lift him by his shirt or hold him by the arm.
    You're assuming that random people on the internet know better than the author about how dangerous it is without any reason to.
    Last edited by Reverent-One; 2014-06-24 at 11:07 AM.
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  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey View Post
    Hence we go back to "she should have handlet it so much better". Her first step would have been to call the cops. Second to call the girl's friends. Third to separete him from her, and Fourth to just hold him in place. Seriously, two hands on his shoulders and he could not move. At all. But I guess (HOPE! actually) that the author will use this not only to illustrate the obvious anvil but also the main protagonist's impulse control problem. She has always resorted to violence, it's second nature to her.
    No debate, she could have handled it better. Another thing is, he police could've investigated Miles. Maybe he raped people before, maybe he will do so again. The police could do something about it. Just choke him a bit and then let him off is a very subpar solution. Could be a good way to illustrate the point she made herself earlier. "What can I do, that a good cop can't?" - This shows, she is actually not even as good as a "good cop".

    But, anyway, I'm this behaviour is very much in character and I hope, like you, it will be adressed (Even though I doubt it by now). She is a flawed person, that is kinda a big point in the comic so far. Her reasoning in the next two strips is interesting. She still tries to make the world perfect, free from every tiny unjustice - and still resorts to punching, to solve problems. But her perspective is very different from normal humans. I wonder, where the author will go with that.

  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: Strong Female Protagonist (webcomic)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post

    You're assuming that random people on the internet know better than the author about how dangerous it is without any reason to.
    No I'm giving the author the reasonable doubt that they probably didn't mean for what the protagonist to be so severe as risking paralyzing a person from the neck down for life.
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  19. - Top - End - #109
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    Default Re: Strong Female Protagonist (webcomic)

    Does anyone else think that Allison's comment in this comic is about her control issues? When she says 'different safety reasons', I'm suspecting Drunk Allison is an outright danger to things and people around her because of her powers, rather than getting drunk being dangerous to herself.

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    I thought that was pretty obvious. She's not afraid of getting harmed, nothing can harm her. She's afraid of harming others.
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  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    No I'm giving the author the reasonable doubt that they probably didn't mean for what the protagonist to be so severe as risking paralyzing a person from the neck down for life.
    Which requires that what she did was as dangerous as certain people in this thread are claiming. So like I said, you're assuming that said random people on the internet know better than the author.
    Last edited by Reverent-One; 2014-06-24 at 03:04 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    Which requires that what she did was as dangerous as certain people in this thread are claiming. So like I said, you're assuming that said random people on the internet know better than the author.
    Flip that right around. The writer has degrees in Screenwriting and Philosophy. The co-author is a web designer. The artist is a college art student. They make a free webcomic in their spare time. None of those are medical professions, so what guarantee do you have that any of them are more knowledgeable regarding anatomy than 'random internet people' (who, as they are random, cannot conclusively be proven to have such knowledge or not)?
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2014-06-24 at 03:29 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Flip that right around. The writer has degrees in Screenwriting and Philosophy. The co-author is a web designer. The artist is a college art student. They make a free webcomic in their spare time. None of those are medical professions, so what guarantee do you have that any of them are more knowledgeable than 'random internet people'?
    I never said I had any such guarantee from the author, but since I also don't have it from people in this thread, that doesn't change what I was saying.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    Which requires that what she did was as dangerous as certain people in this thread are claiming. So like I said, you're assuming that said random people on the internet know better than the author.
    As someone with rather severe neck and back problems I am relying on no one to tell me that, I know it personally how dangerous things like that can be its why in order to lightly pull on my head while I'm laying down they needed x rays and and several degrees. Putting the stress of a persons entire body onto they neck with a sudden jerk IS DANGEROUS to an insane degree. Would it make you feel better if I asked my chiropractor directly, would that be an expert enough opinion?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    Restraining someone without harming them is the same whether you grab the arm or neck.
    This is untrue. Many martial arts restraints that have most of the work done on one body part operate on the principle that the only way to escape is to injure yourself. Injuries to the throat are obviously going to be more life threatening than injuries to the arm. The difference is that chickenwinging somebody is less obviously a display of power than holding them in the air with one hand. Incidentally, the latter, if you are holding them by the throat, will strangle them as their own weight pushes their throat against your hand, even if it doesn't crush their windpipe outright.


    That was pretty much the most harmful way to restrain somebody, assuming you didn't start by injuring them.

    It's mindboggling that you would argue that this isn't any more dangerous than any other method of restraint. It unequivocally is. Now, it is possible that the artist didn't intend to show this as dangerous and simply didn't know that it was, but that isn't what you are arguing right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sum1won View Post
    This is untrue. Many martial arts restraints that have most of the work done on one body part operate on the principle that the only way to escape is to injure yourself. Injuries to the throat are obviously going to be more life threatening than injuries to the arm. The difference is that chickenwinging somebody is less obviously a display of power than holding them in the air with one hand. Incidentally, the latter, if you are holding them by the throat, will strangle them as their own weight pushes their throat against your hand, even if it doesn't crush their windpipe outright.


    That was pretty much the most harmful way to restrain somebody, assuming you didn't start by injuring them.

    It's mindboggling that you would argue that this isn't any more dangerous than any other method of restraint. It unequivocally is. Now, it is possible that the artist didn't intend to show this as dangerous and simply didn't know that it was, but that isn't what you are arguing right now.
    Evidently, Alison was able to restrain him without harming him, hence my point on being in that part you're responding that if she's capable of that (and it's not a lucky fluke, which I would require some acknowledgement of before accepting), it doesn't make much difference.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    Evidently, Alison was able to restrain him without seriously harming him, hence my point on being in that part you're responding that if she's capable of that (and it's not a lucky fluke, which I would require some acknowledgement of before accepting), it doesn't make much difference.
    FIFY, and what? You SERIOUSLY don't see the difference?
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    Default Re: Strong Female Protagonist (webcomic)

    The problem here isn't with the author's portrayal.

    Miles's eyes bulge out, his face changes color and he is unable to speak while Alison holds him. He's also trying to pry her fingers away from his throat. Those are perfectly consistent with a person who's being choked out of air. When she does let go, he cries of pain and shock.

    And let's not forget the immediate reaction of everybody else on that roof. Shock, followed by "please don't kill him". No-one on that roof was blind to the fact that Alison's actions were completely disproportionate.

    Why would you assume the author is unaware of potential consequences of choking someone like that, when in-universe characters immediately call Alison out on it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen_Feet View Post
    The problem here isn't with the author's portrayal.

    Miles's eyes bulge out, his face changes color and he is unable to speak while Alison holds him. He's also trying to pry her fingers away from his throat. Those are perfectly consistent with a person who's being choked out of air. When she does let go, he cries of pain and shock.

    And let's not forget the immediate reaction of everybody else on that roof. Shock, followed by "please don't kill him". No-one on that roof was blind to the fact that Alison's actions were completely disproportionate.

    Why would you assume the author is unaware of potential consequences of choking someone like that, when in-universe characters immediately call Alison out on it?
    I imagine that the response of people on the roof playing into the authors portrayal of "Rape Culture" and that we are supposed to disagree with them. Which is why I think that the author probably didn't mean to portray something as dangerous and risky as they did.
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  30. - Top - End - #120
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Strong Female Protagonist (webcomic)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    Restraining someone without harming them is the same whether you grab the arm or neck.
    No it's not. It's not the same legally and it's not the same mechanically. There's a reason why several martial arts and self-defense schools, Judo for example, favor arm and wrist locks instead of chokes. It's because they're safer. An armbar, carried to its logical conclusion, will result in a broken arm. A choke, carried to its logical conclusion, leads to unconsciousness and possibly death.

    The amount of force used is not irrelevant either. Every one of those foot-pounds counts, yo. The same amount of force that'd bruise up your wrist will cause you to gag and lose consciousness in seconds if applied your neck or throat. As noted, Allison had to use superhuman force to lift Miles like that; what she did was not appreciably better than someone else just punching him in the throat. The comic likely won't go out of its way to display the bruises on Miles's neck or the sore throat he'll have for the next day, but we can reasonably infer they're going to be there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    I imagine that the response of people on the roof playing into the authors portrayal of "Rape Culture" and that we are supposed to disagree with them. Which is why I think that the author probably didn't mean to portray something as dangerous and risky as they did.
    Certainly the author is trying to portray a "rape culture". That is not mutually exclusive with portraying Allison as having temper problems, because that problem of hers has been touched on before, and is directly reference by Miles bringing up the hospital scene.

    It's not either or. Everyone there is at fault for something. Especially after the latest page, I'm very interested to see whether the comic will revisit Allison's rationalization, and how.
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