Strong Female Protagonist (webcomic)

[Reverent-One]

FIFY, and what? You SERIOUSLY don't see the difference?

If there are two ways to restrain someone without harming them, then there is no effective difference. You're still arguing from the assumption that it's not a way to restrain someone without harming them, despite what actually happened in-comic.

And let's not forget the immediate reaction of everybody else on that roof. Shock, followed by "please don't kill him". No-one on that roof was blind to the fact that Alison's actions were completely disproportionate.

Or it's because that is a scary looking thing to do, because of what she could to him grabbing his neck if she wanted to (that is, snap it like a twig). Especially since her freakout in Alabama after the Feral incident was fresh in their minds.

No it's not. It's not the same legally and it's not the same mechanically. There's a reason why several martial arts and self-defense schools, Judo for example, favor arm and wrist locks instead of chokes. It's because they're safer. An armbar, carried to its logical conclusion, will result in a broken arm. A choke, carried to its logical conclusion, leads to unconsciousness and possibly death.

Said logical conclusion is not something Alison was required to do simply by grabbing him like that in the first place. As evidenced by the fact that neither actually happened.

The amount of force used is not irrelevant either. Every one of those foot-pounds counts, yo. The same amount of force that'd bruise up your wrist will cause you to gag and lose consciousness in seconds if applied your neck or throat. As noted, Allison had to use superhuman force to lift Miles like that; what she did was not appreciably better than someone else just punching him in the throat. The comic likely won't go out of its way to display the bruises on Miles's neck or the sore throat he'll have for the next day, but we can reasonably infer they're going to be there.

And grabbing his arm enough that he can't get away could leave bruises as well, or, as you said, a broken arm, which is far worse than bruises but still something you're apparently ok with happening. Also, punching someone in the the throat is more likely to directly apply the pressure to the larynx and damage it while a grab could perhaps be designed to avoid that occuring. Once again, as we see happening.

So, summary to perhaps avoid too much more going around in circles, there are three possible significant interperations:
A) She didn't know what she was doing and it was dangerous, it's sheer luck something worse didn't happen.
B) She did know what she was doing, there wasn't a significant danger, and it's unrealistic but is simply an instance of a common media trope that the the author doesn't care to deconstruct.
C) She did know what she was doing, there wasn't a significant danger, and it's theorectically possible in the real-world.

If it's A,I would expect this to come up in-universe because the author generally isn't one to let Alison get away with something like that. Other than that, regardless of if it's B or C, either way the first part ("she knew what she was doing") is my read of the situation barring evidence to the contrary.

[Frozen_Feet]

It continues to not matter even if she knew what she was doing. Right of self defense still doesn't apply when there's no immediate threat to the victim. No, your kidnapping clause still doesn't count; Miles already stopped when Alison talked to him, and he was not being violent.

As such, Alison had no right to grab him by the throat. If she did that intentionally, she acted with criminal intent, which would be an aggravating factor. It's analogous to a police officer drawing a gun on a non-violent perp. It doesn't matter if he was not grievously injured! I know a few dozen ways to kick, punch and choke a person safely, without incurring heavy damage to anyone. That does not permit me to use said skills on unsuspecting people when it's not required. If Alison was a martial artists, this stunt would see her kicked out of any dojo she would belong to.

[The Glyphstone]

Why wouldn't the author let Allison get away with it? This is obviously a soapbox arc, as evidenced by the invisible mustache-twirling, and everyone who has tried to call her out on it were immediately and contextually painted as villains/wrong. Some soapboxes need to be stood on, but this is telegraphed pretty blatantly in both related scenes as Author Fiat declaring Allison's actions in their entirety to be Right And Good. That would be the unspoken 'Option D' that was left off the list...

D) She didn't know what she was doing and it would be dangerous in real life, but the author's ignorance of how dangerous that hold actually is means the imaginary cartoon character subjected to it will not be permanently harmed. This arc will be forgotten in a few pages and never mentioned again until Activist Friend Character is needed for dramatic purposes.

[Reverent-One]

It continues to not matter even if she knew what she was doing. Right of self defense still doesn't apply when there's no immediate threat to the victim. No, your kidnapping clause still doesn't count; Miles already stopped when Alison talked to him, and he was not being violent.

As such, Alison had no right to grab him by the throat. If she did that intentionally, she acted with criminal intent, which would be an aggravating factor. It's analogous to a police officer drawing a gun on a non-violent perp. It doesn't matter if he was not grievously injured! I know a few dozen ways to kick, punch and choke a person safely, without incurring heavy damage to anyone. That does not permit me to use said skills on unsuspecting people when it's not required. If Alison was a martial artists, this stunt would see her kicked out of any dojo she would belong to.

A new point, cool. The circle is broken.

Still, Miles was interfering with getting to the bottom of what was going on, trying to blow her off/drown her out and leave, he wasn't stopped, he was still attempting to get away with it. If Alison felt there was a risk of him actually succeeding and possibly slipping away, it makes sense to stop him from interfering and seperate the two until everything shakes out. She may have been hasty in making said judgement, but she doesn't have days to analyze the situation like we do, she's operating in real time. Not ideal perhaps, but not outright wrong.

Why wouldn't the author let Allison get away with it? This is obviously a soapbox arc, as evidenced by the invisible mustache-twirling, and everyone who has tried to call her out on it were immediately and contextually painted as villains/wrong. Some soapboxes need to be stood on, but this is telegraphed pretty blatantly in both related scenes as Author Fiat declaring Allison's actions in their entirety to be Right And Good. That would be the unspoken 'Option D' that was left off the list...

Because this comic does like descontructing/subverting superhero tropes, and ignoring excessive force just because the heroes do it is exactly the sort of thing the author would play with (in fact, they've done something similar already, bringing the collateral damage of superhero fights home with the wife of the teacher, for example). Also, the drunk girls friend points out the naivete of Alison's viewpoints here and she's painted as wrong, simply more practical.

D) She didn't know what she was doing and it would be dangerous in real life, but the author's ignorance of how dangerous that hold actually is means the imaginary cartoon character subjected to it will not be permanently harmed. This arc will be forgotten in a few pages and never mentioned again until Activist Friend Character is needed for dramatic purposes.

Nope, that's a misinterperted version of B. If the author is playing the trope straight, whether by design or ignorance, the intention is that the action isn't risky in-universe. If you reject that because "it's unrealistic", you might as well reject everything in the comic, since people having superpowers and all isn't realistic either.

[The Glyphstone]

No, it's the exact opposite of B), because it actually is that dangerous.

Which is something you pointedly left off of your 'only possible options' list as well, the original suggestion (which you rejected because it came from 'random internet people'....the possibility that she knew what she was doing and it actually is that dangerous, but the author isn't going to address it or call her out on it because Miles is a (non-superpowered) Bad Guy, and anything a Hero does to a Bad Guy is justified.

In fact, none of your combinations mix 'she knew what she was doing' and 'it could actually hurt him', despite that being the most likely of any outcome with the whole subtheme of Allison's control issues - reinforced by the last comic's alcohol discussion. This is her World of Cardboard equivalent.

[Reverent-One]

No, it's the exact opposite of B), because it actually is that dangerous.

Which is something you pointedly left off of your 'only possible options' list as well, the original suggestion (which you rejected because it came from 'random internet people'....the possibility that she knew what she was doing and it actually is that dangerous, but the author isn't going to address it or call her out on it because Miles is a (non-superpowered) Bad Guy, and anything a Hero does to a Bad Guy is justified.

Like I said, that's covered by the author playing the trope straight. It doesn't matter why they're doing so. If an author has a character take an action because they (the author) though the action was safe and the action is performed safely, then judging the character as if the action was unsafe makes no sense, the arbiter of the universe's rules thinks it's safe, so at least within that context, it is.

In fact, none of your combinations mix 'she knew what she was doing' and 'it could actually hurt him', despite that being the most likely of any outcome with the whole subtheme of Allison's control issues - reinforced by the last comic's alcohol discussion. This is her World of Cardboard equivalent.

If it could actually hurt him and she knew what she was doing, then her intention would need to be to hurt him. There is absolutely no evidence of that. If she wanted him hurt, he would be hurt. Alison lacking control and hurting him is covered by option A, because that means that she doesn't know what she's doing.

[The Glyphstone]

Like I said, that's covered by the author playing the trope straight. It doesn't matter why they're doing so. If an author has a character take an action because they (the author) though the action was safe and the action is performed safely, then judging the character as if the action was unsafe makes no sense, the arbiter of the universe's rules thinks it's safe, so at least within that context, it is.



If it could actually hurt him and she knew what she was doing, then her intention would need to be to hurt him. There is absolutely no evidence of that. If she wanted him hurt, he would be hurt. Alison lacking control and hurting him is covered by option A, because that means that she doesn't know what she's doing.

And this bolded statement is, I think, why everyone else in the thread is just talking past you. You've locked into the binary choice of 'completely unharmed' and 'crippled/dead' - if he can talk/breathe after, he wasn't hurt at all. Whereas everyone else sees his blue face, tears, and gasping for breath afterwards as blatant visual evidence that her hold was hurting him, but she let him go before the damage became unsurvivable.

[Reverent-One]

And this bolded statement is, I think, why everyone else in the thread is just talking past you. You've locked into the binary choice of 'completely unharmed' and 'crippled/dead' - if he can talk/breathe after, he wasn't hurt at all. Whereas everyone else sees his blue face, tears, and gasping for breath afterwards as blatant visual evidence that her hold was hurting him, but she let him go before the damage became unsurvivable.

And I've said before, temporary discomfort is generally accepted when restraining someone trying to do something, like say, kidnap and rape someone else. Most any form of unwilling physical restraint will cause some form of pain, I was using "hurt" in this case as "harm" has previously been used, which would be more accurate.

[The Glyphstone]

Discomfort is an upset stomach. Discomfort is whacking your shin on a table or stubbing your toe. Discomfort is accidentally snorting soda up your nose. Discomfort is not being strangled until your face turns blue from hypoxia (suffocation)*.

That is potentially lethal injury, and while you appear to be comfortable grading physical harm on a sliding scale based on who it's used against, the rest of us are calling it out for what it is.

*face-turning-blue is Cyanosis. Oxygen deprivation that causes such is Hypoxia.

[Reverent-One]

Discomfort is an upset stomach. Discomfort is whacking your shin on a table or stubbing your toe. Discomfort is accidentally snorting soda up your nose. Discomfort is not being strangled until your face turns blue from hypoxia (suffocation).

That is potentially lethal injury,

That's up for debate. In fact, that's what we've been debating. I point back to my list of scenarios, if Alison didn't know what she was doing (by which I mean taking an action with a potentially lethal effect without intending to), I expect it to come up at some point, barring that, I'm going with what is shown, that no injury was inflicted, nor was there a significant risk of one, and this was because Alison knew what she was doing, not because of some lucky fluke.

and while you appear to be comfortable grading physical harm on a sliding scale based on who it's used against, the rest of us are calling it out for what it is.

Nope, I grade physical harm on a sliding scale of the actual harm it does. Crazy idea, I know. Miles seems to be unharmed by the experience, once Alison let him go, he's able to breathe and talk just fine (it is possible that perhaps he has, simply didn't realize it immediately, and this will be brought up later, in which case I will revise that analysis).

[Connington]

Why wouldn't the author let Allison get away with it? This is obviously a soapbox arc, as evidenced by the invisible mustache-twirling, and everyone who has tried to call her out on it were immediately and contextually painted as villains/wrong. Some soapboxes need to be stood on, but this is telegraphed pretty blatantly in both related scenes as Author Fiat declaring Allison's actions in their entirety to be Right And Good. That would be the unspoken 'Option D' that was left off the list...

D) She didn't know what she was doing and it would be dangerous in real life, but the author's ignorance of how dangerous that hold actually is means the imaginary cartoon character subjected to it will not be permanently harmed. This arc will be forgotten in a few pages and never mentioned again until Activist Friend Character is needed for dramatic purposes.

Half the comic is about how Allison's superheroic, bull in a china shop, "throw the bad guy through a building to daze him" style doesn't work in the real world. She punches when she should talk, breaks things when she should turn them off, and trades quips when she should have an honest conversation.

Allison gets called out for using excessive force and unnecessary escalation of violence often enough throughout the comic that I don't think it's required that every instance be tagged with a little editor's note marking a poor decision.

And honestly, I liked this scene. Comicbooks don't usually deal with the issue of sexual assault outside of the "masked man in an alley" scenario. Miles dragging Daphne off had a nice balance of "obvious in the moment, but you couldn't prove it in a court of law". Allison stops it in a way that's better than not intervening, but with an unjustifiable level of violence. It's a heck of a lot more interesting and less soapboxy than a PSA where Mega Girl shows the proper way to intervene in sexual assault.

[Alcibiades]

Yeah, I enjoyed the scene because of the subtlety I read in it. We've seen enough of Alison's screw-ups to know that she's not portrayed as a hero who gets it right all the time and the rooftop party fits right into that narrative. I don't agree that there's any mustache-twirling going on either. Based on the dialogue that's not a situation where you should ever let the girl leave with the guy, but whether Miles actually has malicious intentions or is just a stupid, slightly inebriated college student about to make a terrible decision is left open for interpretation.
I think Violet's remark (that her years as a child soldier has left Alison with issues) is a little bit too spot-on to think that Brennan isn't aware of all this.

Maybe I'm giving the author too much credit but I think SFP is the best written non-comedic webcomic I've read.

[The Glyphstone]

Maybe I'm giving the author too much credit but I think SFP is the best written non-comedic webcomic I've read.

I can only think of one I'd place above it, a story called Dreamless, but it's more of a page-by-page graphic novel (long since completed). But SFP is definitely the second-runner-up for me.

[Frozen_Feet]

One of the reasons why the comic caught my attention is because Allison's struggle with her violent streak is very realistic and easy to relate to, as I've lived with the exact same feelings for years now. It makes her easy to relate, but it also makes it fun to spot the differences in her thinking and mine.

[Alcibiades]

I can only think of one I'd place above it, a story called Dreamless, but it's more of a page-by-page graphic novel (long since completed). But SFP is definitely the second-runner-up for me.

I forgot Dreamless existed, thanks. That's definitely on a different level, though the artwork does so much for the comic, too.

I predict a swift and violent death for Cornbread Man. If you wanted mustache-twirling, there it is.

[Avilan the Grey]

Yeah, I enjoyed the scene because of the subtlety I read in it.

I DISLIKE the scene for the opposite reason, the complete lack of subtlety.

[Veridis Quo]

I DISLIKE the scene for the opposite reason, the complete lack of subtlety.

I have to agree, the first scene of the chapter between the invisible killer and the four teenagers had some degree of ambiguity to it. It left us unsure of the guilt of at least one of them.

This scene was pretty direct in terms of Mile's intentions and left nothing to speculation or imagination. He wasn't presented as tipsy or drunk so his delay couldn't be the result of an altered mental state. While he isn't shown dragging Daphne away he has a sort of half-grin/half-smirk on his face the page before Alison confronts him. Not saying that that isn't how situations like this play out in real life though.

[Morquard]

Well, I think that scene is exactly showing what she herself mentioned before when she was talking to Daniel. "Heck, I just threatened to kill a hundred people on live TV, and they still let me in here to talk to you alone. Guess once you saved the world a few times you can do whatever the **** you want without consequences."

But we don't know if there are consequences yet. None on the roof is stupid enough to try and citizen-arrest an obviously pissed of Mega-Girl. So what exactly did you expect? But we've not seen the entire aftermath of it either. There's quite possible going to be some consequences.

She's slowly learning that there are consequences for what she does, but usually not to her directly, so for the longest time she could ignore them. She saved the city, threw a robot through a building, got a pat on the shoulder. Well done, Mega-Girl. The consequence was however that the professor lost his husband. She defeated Cleaver. Great job. But the playground and half the campus was in ruins. Possibly people dead or wounded, we didn't see that.

The next step would be that there are more personal consequences. And if it's only that her roommate decides she doesn't wanna live with a maniac anymore and moves out, or is acting scared around her after seeing that.

[Veridis Quo]

Well, I think that scene is exactly showing what she herself mentioned before when she was talking to Daniel. "Heck, I just threatened to kill a hundred people on live TV, and they still let me in here to talk to you alone. Guess once you saved the world a few times you can do whatever the **** you want without consequences."

That does raise an interesting question though. If we are to believe that any biodynamic individual with powers that could actually change the world were eliminated early on in their lives, what kind of odds was Alison against that would constitute "Saving the world"? We know from her flashbacks that she usually only fought Patrick's robots and minions in New York but she bowed out of superheroing around the time people started asking her how she would handle international incidents and the escalating presence of biodynamics in foreign military's. Aside from the Chinese, biodynamics around the world seem to interact with the general population in a completely different way than Alison and her peers if Feral's chapter is accurate.

So how exactly has Alison saved the world if she has only dealt with criminals who are relatively small time in the greater context of the world? I think the answer to that might shed more light on her obsession with saving the actual world.

[Frozen_Feet]

I believe that question, and the lack of satisfactory answer to it, is the reason she stopped being Megagirl.

[Reverent-One]

So how exactly has Alison saved the world if she has only dealt with criminals who are relatively small time in the greater context of the world? I think the answer to that might shed more light on her obsession with saving the actual world.

She probably hasn't just been dealing with relatively small time criminals. Menace attacked New York City with his own army of robots and had enough influence in manipulating people to think he had mind control powers, and he's described as "the last tier one supervillain", meaning that there had been others at that scale as well. It would fit with what has been said that the guardians helped against and/or dealt with those themselves as well.

[The Glyphstone]

Which makes sense. Having Mega Girl stop muggers is the quintessential sledgehammer to crack an egg.

[Morquard]

Yes, you're absolutely right. She most likely never truely "saved the world", but the media spun it like that probably.
Also it might be playing on the fact that all the superhero movies/comics etc, where the world gets "saved" usually it's New York that gets saved. Or the United States at max.

The fact is she's still considered one of the "good guys", a "hero" if you will.

[Cikomyr]

Yes, you're absolutely right. She most likely never truely "saved the world", but the media spun it like that probably.
Also it might be playing on the fact that all the superhero movies/comics etc, where the world gets "saved" usually it's New York that gets saved. Or the United States at max.

The fact is she's still considered one of the "good guys", a "hero" if you will.

Giant robots attacking the city? Maybe not saving "the world", but it's certainly a massive threat that deserved to be stopped, and Megagirl deserves every props for doing it.

She wasn't a petty crime solver. She actually acknowledged that she is no better at stopping petty crime than a policeman. Probably even worse than them.

[Avilan the Grey]

So the invisible extremist is killing 70 year old wife beaters now.
Why do I have a feeling this is a character that the Protagonist knows, and have to bring to justice soon?

[Morquard]

Well it sounded like he's a judge. I guess it's the same judge that let the 4 rapists go.

As for the Invisible Killer, I'm not sure we know him or her, or if Allison does, but yes, I guess the "bring to justice" part is gonna happen sooner or later.

Assuming it's someone we have seen before, who could it be?
Pintsize? He's small enough nobody would see him, and he might be using his airplane wings to cut the throats. Not really likely though.
Menace? He might simply make people believe that he's not there. Daniel and Allison both said their Powers are evolving and getting stronger. Menace might not have been able to mind control back then, but he might now - or at least alter their perception a little
Graveyard? We know little about that one. Could be. But the name suggests more something like "raises zombies" and not "super secret assassin".
Feral? Not her style. Too clean :)
Feral's Teleporter friend? Might teleport in and out in the blink of an eye. He didn't seem the type, but we know little about him too.
Superspeed Guy? Dunno his name. Patrick met with him at the docks in Issue 3, p 37. But I don't really know if we can classify that guy as "we know him".

[Cikomyr]

We already seen who the invisible killer is.. no?

The girl who was raped.

edit: nevermind.. I thought she was offered the evil superpowering deal

[theangelJean]

Is anyone else thinking what I'm thinking here?

Spoiler: Our invisible killer

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The fourth member of the Guardians is Mary aka Moonshadow. She is the only person who can sneak up on Brad... I wonder what her power is?

Also thankyou to Icewalker for starting the thread and introducing me to a great comic. I wonder if it would attract more interest if superheroes were mentioned in the thread title?

[Coidzor]

Well, I just discovered this thanks to the posting over in the JL8 thread.

I have to admit, I think this was the first time in a long while something I read brought me to the verge of tears.

Quite interesting, too.

[The Troubadour]

Is anyone else thinking what I'm thinking here?

Spoiler: Our invisible killer

Show

The fourth member of the Guardians is Mary aka Moonshadow. She is the only person who can sneak up on Brad... I wonder what her power is?

An interesting idea, but I don't think it meshes all that well with

Spoiler

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what Brad said about the way Mary was acting. I mean, she resented the lack of public visibility after not fighting supervillains anymore.
On the other hand, maybe that's just Brad's take on things and she wouldn't mind dealing out some more "domestic" justice, especially since it presumably carries no risk to herself.