Strong Female Protagonist (webcomic)

[The Glyphstone]

This is feeling extremely author-tracty.

[Alcibiades]

Right when I could almost forget some of the more aggravating parts of the webcomic they have to start tossing out more literally made up statistics to justify the vigilante murders of the "correct" victims -_-

I don't know about made up, these are numbers that I've seen quited by others. I think she's misquoting them somewhat, though.

Page's realle meh, I'd expected more than just a wall of monologue.

[Lethologica]

The statistics cited are ones that commonly appear in discussions in the real world, but whose accuracy is disputed. The larger point doesn't really hinge on the choice of statistics here--any of the statistics that come up in such discussions would have a similar effect, and it's not like the other possible choices aren't also disputed, because the subject matter is such that any statistical citation by one faction is suspect to another faction. If a comic character is going to cite statistics about rape, these are the statistics I'd expect them to cite.

[Admiral Squish]

Well, I just read the whole thing, and I got to say, I rather like it.
It's an interesting take on superpowers, for one.
And yeah, it can be a little preachy, but I think you kind of have to forgive a certain quantity of that when it comes to webcomics, everyone's got their views, and webcomics almost always touch on the author's in some fashion.

[Dragonus45]

The statistics cited are ones that commonly appear in discussions in the real world, but whose accuracy is disputed. The larger point doesn't really hinge on the choice of statistics here--any of the statistics that come up in such discussions would have a similar effect, and it's not like the other possible choices aren't also disputed, because the subject matter is such that any statistical citation by one faction is suspect to another faction. If a comic character is going to cite statistics about rape, these are the statistics I'd expect them to cite.

Yea there is a lot to dispute either way, but the author has picked are the most extreme of the extreme, of the extreme. Also your right any statistics would be superfluous to the point, but the point that is being backed up is also kind of bunk. I could point to dozens of peer reviewed studies going back to the opening of the first ever women shelter that show men and women face abuse, and abuse, equally. The idea that these killings are long overdue is laughable no matter what statistics you want to use.

Well, I just read the whole thing, and I got to say, I rather like it.
It's an interesting take on superpowers, for one.
And yeah, it can be a little preachy, but I think you kind of have to forgive a certain quantity of that when it comes to webcomics, everyone's got their views, and webcomics almost always touch on the author's in some fashion.

Yea, I just wish the comic wasn't so good so I could stop reading it with a clear conscience.

[Cikomyr]

I am going to hold off the belief that what has been said is an author's track. It may just be the representation of a single viewpoint of a diversely minded cast.

[The Patterner]

I am going to hold off the belief that what has been said is an author's track. It may just be the representation of a single viewpoint of a diversely minded cast.

Same here, my take is that this represents this one persons beliefs and therefore her choice in statistics rather than and universal truth.

That's the problem with statistics after all, if several different sources say slightly different things, well, we have to pick and chose.

[Cikomyr]

Same here, my take is that this represents this one persons beliefs and therefore her choice in statistics rather than and universal truth.

That's the problem with statistics after all, if several different sources say slightly different things, well, we have to pick and chose.

Thing is, even if that statistic was true. Which is do not deny or condone.

Even if that statistic was true, it can be chalked up to one fundamental aspect of our legal system:

We prefer to let the guilty go free rather than imprison the innocent

Sad as it may be, it means that proof-less accusations of rapes will often lead to nowhere, as it often lead to two people's word against each other, shaded in each other's interpretation of events.

Not saying its not horrible. But what is the alternative?

[Dodom]

That comic has been about dealing with the social implications of superpowers from the start, it never goes long without a character starting questioning what difference a biodynamic can or should do, why the biggest problems can't be punched in the face, etc.
I see outrage here, and there was some on the comic's comment page too, but I'm unimpressed. Being offended by SFP trying to connect its plotlines to social issues is like being offended that OotS makes fun of D&D. That's the point, it's great that they can do more, but that's what they're about in the first place!

[BRC]

Thing is, even if that statistic was true. Which is do not deny or condone.

Even if that statistic was true, it can be chalked up to one fundamental aspect of our legal system:

We prefer to let the guilty go free rather than imprison the innocent

Sad as it may be, it means that proof-less accusations of rapes will often lead to nowhere, as it often lead to two people's word against each other, shaded in each other's interpretation of events.

Not saying its not horrible. But what is the alternative?

There are more factors at play than just that, but I think discussing it further may attract the Wrath of Mod, so let's steer away.

In this case, I think what the comic is looking at is the different forms of vigilantism.

We accept the idea of superheroes going to beat up drug dealers and bank robbers, both in and out of comic.
With this arc, you have Superheroes going after criminals that the justice system/society is notoriously bad at punishing.

The Party is kind of a microcosm of what Moonshadow is doing. Allison saw something happening, she used her powers to intervene, and everybody freaked out. Admittedly, at the party she didn't need to grab the guy and hold him up by his neck. She could have confronted him verbally, and just resisted if/when he tried to push past her, which is to say she could probably have handled that situation as a Citizen, rather than as a Superhero.

But I digress.

The big comparison with this arc is Moonshadow fighting gangsters and drug dealers after Mega Girl left the Guardians, versus Moonshadow as the Slasher. She's celebrated for fighting one group of criminals, and condemned for fighting another.

Meanwhile, this ties back to the "How do you save the world with Superpowers" thing. With Feral we had the ultimate act of self-sacrifice. With Moonshadow, we've got a character using their powers to fix society's ills by force. Allison at one point (I think when talking with Cleaver) brought up the idea of just going to washington and forcing the government to fix problems. Using her powers to enforce her will on society. That's basically what Moonshadow is doing.

[Dragonus45]

That comic has been about dealing with the social implications of superpowers from the start, it never goes long without a character starting questioning what difference a biodynamic can or should do, why the biggest problems can't be punched in the face, etc.
I see outrage here, and there was some on the comic's comment page too, but I'm unimpressed. Being offended by SFP trying to connect its plotlines to social issues is like being offended that OotS makes fun of D&D. That's the point, it's great that they can do more, but that's what they're about in the first place!

It isn't about tieing the story into social problem. Its about making up those social issues to tie something too, especially when they are controversial enough as is. There are a lot of other things to talk about that don't inflate issues and cast an entire group as long overdo for a good killing.

[BRC]

It isn't about tieing the story into social problem. Its about making up those social issues to tie something too, especially when they are controversial enough as is. There are a lot of other things to talk about that don't inflate issues and cast an entire group as long overdo for a good killing.

Don't confuse Doctor Lady's indifference for Approval, and I don't think the comic is trying to approve of Moonshadow's actions either.

While it's true all of her victims have been total scumbags so far, she's been painted as deranged and over the edge.

I think the point of this conversation is not "Yes, vigilante murders are a good thing!". In fact, it's kind of the opposite.

Strong Female Protagonist is about exploring the consequences of comic-book superpowers. One of those consequences is members of marginalized groups finding themselves with the ability to take bloody revenge on their oppressors. What I think the authors are doing here is driving home how inevitable that consequence is.
This arc isn't supposed to be about "What happens when a superheroine with invisibility decides to start killing rapists". It's supposed to be about "What happens when members of marginalized groups (In this case Women) find themselves with the ability to take bloody, largely consequence-free revenge on their oppressors". According to the comic, the answer is "At least one of them starts killing rapists".

Compare to the Feral arc.The question asked is "How can a Superhero best help the world?" with the answer being "Find a unique way to help people, then sacrifice everything to do that as much as possible".

So yeah, I think the Statistics are less about justifying Moonshadow's actions, and more about the authors justifying the arc itself.

[Lethologica]

It isn't about tieing the story into social problem. Its about making up those social issues to tie something too, especially when they are controversial enough as is. There are a lot of other things to talk about that don't inflate issues and cast an entire group as long overdo for a good killing.

Controversial, or made up? Don't confuse "I have determined that this side of an issue is wrong" with "I have demonstrated that this is not an issue," let alone "I have demonstrated that the comic is wrong to address this as if it were a controversial issue."

Controversial issues are required for this comic, which is about deconstructing superheroism superpowers in society, to function. That a villain justifies herself, and a supporting character expresses ambivalence, for reasons you have concluded are wrong, does not make the comic wrong for including them.

[Guancyto]

Strong Female Protagonist is about exploring the consequences of comic-book superpowers. One of those consequences is members of marginalized groups finding themselves with the ability to take bloody revenge on their oppressors. What I think the authors are doing here is driving home how inevitable that consequence is.

This arc isn't supposed to be about "What happens when a superheroine with invisibility decides to start killing rapists". It's supposed to be about "What happens when members of marginalized groups (In this case Women) find themselves with the ability to take bloody, largely consequence-free revenge on their oppressors". According to the comic, the answer is "At least one of them starts killing rapists".

That was the impression I got as well. The idea that supervillains would arise not from narcissism or megalomania or even necessarily greed (which are really the big three for comic book villains), but from existing social problems and how people decide to deal with them? Heck, Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal took a swing at that (albeit with its usual lack of gravitas). Got a comment somewhere in the comment section of the comic itself, Mary's crusade is just a logical extension of the problem-solving skills she's been surrounded with her entire life. Of course a cynical superhero-doctor isn't surprised.

(Glibly, she's AMERICAN. She's faced with a widespread social problem. Obviously the solution is to declare war!)

I dunno, I keep hearing this "author tract" thing whenever the real world intersects the four-color punching people world or whenever a character talks about their perspective for more than a panel. It's gotten me a little jaded to the accusation.

The whole point of SFP is "how would individuals with superpowers actually cope with this wild, weird, crazy and frequently screwed-up world we live in?" I'd be supremely disappointed if the author were going to pull their punches for the sake of avoiding controversy.

[Shogo]

Crazy theory just for the lulz . . . Moonshadow wasn't actually ruled out as a potential suspect.

Scientist lady whose name I can't recall is actually working with Moonshadow and she told Allison that Moonshadow is in the clear to get Allison off her trail.

[The Patterner]

Even crazier theory, the goverment knows but for some reason won't do anything about it.

[Eric Tolle]

Scientist lady whose name I can't recall is actually working with Moonshadow and she told Allison that Moonshadow is in the clear to get Allison off her trail.

That's one of the leading theories. Or, even if she is't working with Moonshadow, she still strongly suspects.

[Frozen_Feet]

Even if that statistic was true, it can be chalked up to one fundamental aspect of our legal system:

We prefer to let the guilty go free rather than imprison the innocent

The justice system prefers that. The people, not so much. If anything, you could say modern justice systems and governmental monopolies on violence were largely developed to curb murderous tendencies of ordinary folks.

As far as the cited statistics go, yes, it comes off as a stereotypical feminist author rant, but the scene overall is solid. "Cynical person points out world is full of crap and worrying over some particular piece of crap isn't worth the angst" is, at this point, a staple of darker superhero comics *). It remains to be seen whether this will bolster Alison's conviction to do something about it or whether she'll choose to do something more worth her time.

*) I've used a variation of this in a Bleach game. "Hollows eat people and that's bad, you say? Hey, what if instead of killing Hollows, you become a firefighter or doctor or something and prevent people from dying in anquish so they won't become Hollows in the first place?" Of course, the joke is that half the time when I use this kind of argument, it's a villain using it to get the annoying do-gooders off their neck.

[LadyEowyn]

If Allison had been at a bank when someone tried to rob it, and she punched out the robber, would she be getting media criticism for the act, or praise?

I think part of the perspective to take on her actions at the party is why they were recieved differently. The same for the question of why everyone in the audience concludes that Moonshadow must be a villain despite The Punisher having a popular comic series in which he's an anti-hero for killing criminals.

[Shogo]

I'm not a fan of the Punisher . . . Though I do think heroes in comics should be more willing to kill when it comes to the major villains.

I mean, by necessity the Punisher is always going to be gunning down low level mooks who might not have ever killed anyone. Because actually doing something about villains like DC's Joker or Marvel's Magneto or whoever wouldn't be good for sales. (And they'd be revived a week later for whatever arbitrary reason.)

And I'd also say that bank robbers typically carry weapons. A superhero rushing in to knock them the **** out before they can shoot someone doesn't really compare to picking up a sleazebag at a party by his neck when she could put him in a hold or something.

If Moonshadow was killing people who had killed a ****load of people and would continue to do so, I wouldn't really call her a villain. But we've seen her do things like kill high school kids. They admittedly did something awful and weren't properly punished for it, but I wouldn't say they deserved to have their throats cut.

[Frozen_Feet]

If Allison had been at a bank when someone tried to rob it, and she punched out the robber, would she be getting media criticism for the act, or praise?

She would've gotten both - just like she got both for what she did in comic from the comic's audience.

Presuming she would've used similarly disproportionate force, some would've called her out for superhero-equivalent of police brutality. Also, some would've likely called her out for hypocrisy. Normal police force is actually pretty good at dealing with normal bank robberies, so what's she[, the girl who made this point on national television, doing there?

Mind you, a bank robbery is a case where she could have the legal right to kill the robber, and a lot of people would be perfectly fine with that - while at the same time, presses in the foreign world would use this as an example of how Americans are punch-happy crazies and have a boner for vigilante justice.

[Eric Tolle]

And I'd also say that bank robbers typically carry weapons. A superhero rushing in to knock them the **** out before they can shoot someone doesn't really compare to picking up a sleazebag at a party by his neck when she could put him in a hold or something.

Actually, from what studies say, fewer than 1/4 of bank robberies involve using a weapon. It's not like you need one- a note is sufficient. So odds are, if Allison is intervening in a bank robber, it's beating an unarmed person to a pulp.

Of curse that scenario's involving pretty ridiculous levels of coincidence as it is, with a bank robbery just happening around where Allison is. Then again, the standard comic cliche of just running into crime doesn't make much sense either. And proactively going and assaulting peope who might be criminals will involve a lot of attacks of people who just have the wrong appearance.

[BRC]

Also, at the party, she escalated rapidly and unnecessarily.

They guy tries to leave the party with the girl. Allison sees this, thinks it's sleazy, and intervenes. So far so good.
She asks the guy some questions, she is not satisfied with his responses, so she raises a fuss, once again so far so good.
At this point, Allison Green, concerned citizen, could handle the situation. Block the guy from leaving, try to get a response from the girl, get attention from other people at the party, all things that can be done without being a nigh indestructible superwoman.

The problem was that she hoisted the guy up by his neck. She went from "Concerned citizen" to "Superhero with overwhelming power threatening somebody who can't fight back". It would be one thing if he threw a punch, or tried to shove her aside. Instead, he didn't do anything she couldn't counter by getting in his way and raising her voice.

[Dragonus45]

But we've seen her do things like kill high school kids. They admittedly did something awful and weren't properly punished for it, but I wouldn't say they deserved to have their throats cut.

Allegedly they did something awful, now I'm under no illusions and they are probably guilty but all we really have to go on are strong suspicions and presumed authorial intent.

[endur]

I just read the comic strip and I really like it.

There are a lot of different shades of morality in this comic strip, but it is pretty clear that Mega Girl is a super hero.

[Cikomyr]

Ugh... We just got to the other side of the issue. The "women are ruining guy's lives by saying whatever they want!"

While its not a 100% invalid argument, and some of the points made by Fireguy are valids (the relation between media and the Silent Killer's victims), I have to say i hate this argument. As a guy. I see it as nothing more than a privileged demographic ranting about the loss of its unfair privileged that allowed it to dominate the.other.

Guys ranting about it are no better than the white men denouncing the rise of other races of professional careers, claiming that they are given "unfair" advantages while the numbers keep proving that, no. The white men are still heavily privileged and other demographics are still fighting an uphill battle.

[The Glyphstone]

Patrick is not a supervillain anymore. He's reformed....Patrick is not a supervillain anymore. He's reformed...Patrick is not a supervillain anymore. He's reformed...

Why is his office full of people in sleeping bags?

[TheEmerged]

Patrick is not a supervillain anymore. He's reformed....Patrick is not a supervillain anymore. He's reformed...Patrick is not a supervillain anymore. He's reformed...

Why is his office full of people in sleeping bags?

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Possibility 1>They're homeless biodynamics he's assisting\hiding with his fabulous wealth.

Possibility 2>He's manipulating her without mind control by presenting her with sympathetic individuals he's 'helping' - on short notice, hence the sleeping bags.

I know where *my* money is, but I'm sometimes too paranoid for my own good.

[BRC]

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Possibility 1>They're homeless biodynamics he's assisting\hiding with his fabulous wealth.

Possibility 2>He's manipulating her without mind control by presenting her with sympathetic individuals he's 'helping' - on short notice, hence the sleeping bags.

I know where *my* money is, but I'm sometimes too paranoid for my own good.

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I want to say he's experimenting with his powers by listening in on dreams, and those are some people he's paid to take a nap near him.

Although I"m not convinced he's not still a supervillain.

Remember his whole thing about "When you can read somebody's mind, it's easy to manipulate them".

Mega-Girl is coming for him, he knows he can't beat her in a fight, but he knows her mind. He manipulates her, he plants seeds of doubt, turns her away from punching him into paste.

[The Glyphstone]

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I want to say he's experimenting with his powers by listening in on dreams, and those are some people he's paid to take a nap near him.

Although I"m not convinced he's not still a supervillain.

Remember his whole thing about "When you can read somebody's mind, it's easy to manipulate them".

Mega-Girl is coming for him, he knows he can't beat her in a fight, but he knows her mind. He manipulates her, he plants seeds of doubt, turns her away from punching him into paste.

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Didn't he invite her over here? He's got to have a bigger objective than 'don't get punched', otherwise he could have simply not sent her the text.