Belkar's alignment

[Keltest]

But IS Belkar currently giving it a reasonable shot, or is Roy successfully gimping his evil enough that the demon equivalent of the Deva won't buy it?

I think hes being plenty malevolent given the threat of Roy and the rest of the order hanging over his shoulder. He unleashed a dinosaur on some guards, partially or the dinosaurs sake, but partially for the lulz. He had no interest in helping his team because it was boring. He turned a Kobold into a litterbox for his cat. While it was still alive.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

But IS Belkar currently giving it a reasonable shot, or is Roy successfully gimping his evil enough that the demon equivalent of the Deva won't buy it?

I think for the most part, Belkar tries to be as CE as possible, but is sometimes reigned in or redirected by Roy and others.

[TurtlesAWD]

As far as intent goes, I think unlike Roy who makes a conscious to try to follow his alignment (which mostly comes down to trying to follow the law/his responsibilities and trying to do the right thing), Belkar for a long time didn't show the introspection required to make those kinds of judgments on his own actions. This is fitting for a chaotic character, and it's his unthinking murderous impulses that make him evil. Ever since his hippie vision quest and because of the influence of Mister Scruffy, he has shown a greater understanding of himself and why he does what he does. I think the biggest thing keeping him from chaotic neutral will be any sense of repentance or guilt since "gee I really wish I hadn't stabbed all those people" is mostly the kind of thing I can only see Belkar saying sarcastically. For V, who has been responsible for a spell that has killed indiscriminately at least on the same scale as Belkar if not more, what keeps V neutral is their desire to atone for the unforeseen consequences of that spell.

I wouldn't personally rule out character growth (or "pretend" character growth) in a neutral direction for the Belkster, especially depending on how the vampire Durkon plot plays out, and it may be that his actions in saving the world from the Snarl combined with the Order's influence could bump him to a chaotic neutral alignment. Or maybe he'll have himself an apotheosis and become a literal sexy shoeless god of war instead of just a metaphorical one.

[Angelalex242]

Well, it's also worth remembering that Belkar's worst impulses are part of his low int and wis scores.

The one time he had owl's wisdom cast on him, he'd decided to never again kill a living thing.

As such...would Belkar even BE chaotic evil if somebody stuck a periapt of wisdom +6 on him, thus unleashing his ranger spells?

[Domino Quartz]

Well, it's also worth remembering that Belkar's worst impulses are part of his low int and wis scores.

The one time he had owl's wisdom cast on him, he'd decided to never again kill a living thing.

As such...would Belkar even BE chaotic evil if somebody stuck a periapt of wisdom +6 on him, thus unleashing his ranger spells?

I'm pretty sure that was just a one-time joke. Also, it happened within the first 100 strips, so I don't think it's good evidence to base an argument on.

[Angelalex242]

There's no evidence to counteract it at this time, so it must be considered that his chaotic evil nature is at least largely in part to his low mental stats.

[TurtlesAWD]

I think it's a little too strong to say there's no evidence for that. There's basically two things to look at for evidence:

a) Is there a connection between having a high bonus in int/wisdom and being good, or a penalty in int/wisdom and being evil?

b) Is there reason to believe that a change in ability score causes a change in alignment?

I would have to say no to both of these, for a multitude of reasons. We have plenty of smart or wise characters who are still evil. I am unsure of Malak's or Redcloak's exact stats, but they're both clerics so I suspect their wisdom is on the higher end. Likewise, dumb characters such as Elan are still very much good.

Essentially what is being assumed is that someone's personality (and thus alignment) begins and ends with their stat distribution. I believe that's very much not the case. A smart character who gets smarter will simply have more cunning ways to further their already evil goals. Think of it this way, when Roy got the belt of giant strength for saving the people in the desert from the settlers, did it change him fundamentally? Or does the extra strength simply reinforce/bolster what already exists?

Also consider the ramifications of a world in which an increase in wisdom is all it requires to turn an evildoer good. What would be the point of prisons? Just hand out periapts of wisdom and you have immediate criminal rehabilitation. No, I think it's more likely that ability scores are simply a piece of the personality puzzle for any given character and that the scene with Belkar having such an immediate change of heart was done primarily for laughs.

[Angelalex242]

I'm not saying it's that way for EVERY low int/wis character.

It has just been observed it's that way for Belkar in particular. Belkar with full access to his ranger spells is apparently very different then the sexy shoeless god of war we observe otherwise.

[A.A.King]

I'm not saying it's that way for EVERY low int/wis character.

It has just been observed it's that way for Belkar in particular. Belkar with full access to his ranger spells is apparently very different then the sexy shoeless god of war we observe otherwise.

It's true that in one very early page we see a Belkar who is less evil because his wisdom increased by 4 points. However, I think it's fairly save to say that that particular occasion was nothing more then a joke and said absolutely nothing about Belkar. I believe the general rule is that you shouldn't take the things from the first 100 pages too serious unless they have been repeated afterwards I'm pretty sure there are more gags like this which seem to say something about the character but contradict most we know about the comic.

[Nilehus]

Nonsense! I'm still waiting for Haley to bust her third arm out at a crucial point.

That being said, there's a lot from the first 100 strips that cannot be true or are extremely OOC based on later books. V's banned schools, MitD's more callous personality, Eugene actually giving half a care about Roy, and worst of all, Durkon actually having fun. I file the Belkar Wisdom joke under that category.

[Angelalex242]

Well, nobody's ever cast Owl's Wisdom on Belkar since, so we don't know if the effect is repeatable.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think it was just a one time joke that shouldn't be taken too seriously.

[137beth]

Belkar is still Evil, as seen here and stated here.

As for law vs chaos...I don't think he is moving on that axis at all, I think any alignment change he might possibly get in the future would be to CN, not NE.

[GideonWells]

Belkar is still Evil, as seen here and stated here.

As for law vs chaos...I don't think he is moving on that axis at all, I think any alignment change he might possibly get in the future would be to CN, not NE.

I think Belkar is changing his alignment. Belkar is evil, but this chart shows Roy and the OotS already took a chunk out of Belkar's Evil.

I'm not certain Belkar is going to cross over to neutral, but it looks like he is heading there. Shojo is an expert manipulator. His whole mark of justice indicates he is aware of faking it til you make it. Spirit guiding Belkar is just the mark of justice in a different form. The mark was a stick. Belkar just found loop holes around it and didn't really change. It finally bit him when someone out loop holed Belkar's loop holes.

The "fake development" is the same "fake it til you make it" plot but in carrot form. Belkar resisted reform because he resented it. Now that he's "faking" character growth he's opened up his mind to thinking along those paths. He's caring for Scruffy. He's showing concern for Durkon and realizing now (at some level) his actions have consequences. Enough so that he lied about his dream/illusion.

Under Shojo/Scruffy's influence by his actions with the HPOH I think you are wrong about chaos vs lawful. That the lack of wisdom seems to be Belkar's problem combined with the recent guilt leads me to believe Belkar is chaotic evil because he doesn't/didn't have the wisdom to understand how his actions affected others.

Now he is beginning to. Given enough time I think Belkar will shift to Neutral/Neutral. However, he's still thoroughly chaotic due to his impulsiveness. I don't know if he is still evil or not, but considering how often we see Roy treat Belkar as irredeemably evil (even ignoring the warning about V due to his assumptions about Belkar) I think we'll see an alignment switch here before story's end. Maybe at the cost of Roy's lawful alignment.

[factotum]

I think Belkar is changing his alignment. Belkar is evil, but this chart shows Roy and the OotS already took a chunk out of Belkar's Evil.

That's not because they changed Belkar's fundamental nature in any way, though, it's because they kept him on a tight leash and prevented him expressing it, in the same way keeping a dog on a lead prevents it running after the neighbour's cat when you see it--the dog will still *try*, but you prevent him going ahead.

[cybishop]

I think Belkar is changing his alignment.

If all you're saying is that Belkar is becoming less evil, then sure, I'd agree with that. Less evil than he started out is still very evil, though. I disagree with you about him changing alignment. I would find it very surprising if he changed enough to officially become Neutral before the end of the story and/or his death.

Belkar is evil, but this chart shows Roy and the OotS already took a chunk out of Belkar's Evil.

That chart shows him hovering a little below 1 kilo-Nazi. Let's be generous and say around the halfway mark. That happened the day of Roy's death. Since then, we know Belkar stayed fairly evil while in Azure City. (Maybe even got worse, but let's be generous and assume he didn't.) Let's say the "I need to fake character development" epiphany counts as halving his evil. Let's also say that the cat taught him enough empathy to halve his evil again, and seeing Durkon sacrifice himself to save Belkar halved it yet again. (To be clear, I don't believe most of that, in particular I wouldn't say faking character development counts, but again, I'm trying to be generous.)

That leaves Belkar as evil as 62.5 Nazis. That's still pretty evil.

I don't really understand the rest of what you're saying. Belkar's becoming less evil, OK, but you seem to think he's becoming less chaotic? Where's the evidence of that? And why would Shojo have made Belkar more lawful when Shojo himself was chaotic? And why in the world would any of that impact Roy's alignment? The deva who interviewed Roy when he was dead made it pretty clear that intent counts for a lot, and Roy's intent is to mitigate Belkar's harm. Whether he's right about how much harm Belkar would do is beside the point.

[Angelalex242]

Fine thing to tell the forces of light.

"Yeah, we got him down to 62 and a half Nazis! We're redeeming this guy slowly but surely."

"...How many did he start at?"

"Over a three thousand."

"...well, I guess that's an improvement?"

"Guess how many Nazis he'd be without us?"

"...How many?"

"OVER 9000!"

What 9000? *Crushes scouter*

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think that Belkar is going through actual development and possibly becoming more empathetic to other people. I don't think that development translates to anything in his alignment, except perhaps that he is becoming less Evil. I think, if he changes at all it will most likely be to CN.

[BannedInSchool]

But if you could build a Belkar-bot following simple rules to replicate his impulses, is that not Lawful?

[MagicalMeat]

Maybe I'm alone, but I get the feeling that Belkar, given enough time (his death prophesy could easily f-this up), will become Chaotic Neutral with strong Evil leaning. I really don't think Belkar is going to move on the Law/Chaos axis.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Maybe I'm alone, but I get the feeling that Belkar, given enough time (his death prophesy could easily f-this up), will become Chaotic Neutral with strong Evil leaning. I really don't think Belkar is going to move on the Law/Chaos axis.

It seems that many people on this thread, myself included, agree with your last statement.

[Synar]

The thing about evil afterlives is that you have to work for your happiness. Unlike in the good afterlives, where its basically handed out with gift baskets for the sake of it, the evil afterlives make you take it from someone else, because nobody wants to go out of their way to give it to you without seeing returns. The thing is that the evil people basically start at the bottom of the totem pole when they die. There really isn't anyone they can beat up for lunch money yet. They need to get lucky and find someone who trips on a bug and dies in front of them or something.

I find it funny how people speak of such creations as if they actually existed and were fully determined and not dependent of the source/setting/dm/author. I mean, sure, in your evil afterlife, and maybe in most official ones (even if I'm unsure of that), what you describe may be the case; but saying "Actually, that is how evil afterlifes work, because it is" is hardly a counter argument to answer to someone arguing that evil deities should reward their succesful minions.

[Keltest]

I find it funny how people speak of such creations as if they actually existed and were fully determined and not dependent of the source/setting/dm/author. I mean, sure, in your evil afterlife, and maybe in most official ones (even if I'm unsure of that), what you describe may be the case; but saying "Actually, that is how evil afterlifes work, because it is" is hardly a counter argument to answer to someone arguing that evil deities should reward their succesful minions.

Word of Giant is that he just uses the "generic" afterlives described in the books. He applies artistic license when approaching things like how theyre perceived by the characters, but he doesn't change the fundamentals.

Some evil afterlives definitely reward faithful and successful evil minions, but for the most part its a merit based system. And quite frankly, what else would you expect from a dimension of pure evil?

[Angelalex242]

Well, many people expect evil afterlives to be places of odious and eternal torture for anyone who ends up in one, just punishment for their life of ill deeds.

Anyways, at 62 Nazis out of his original 3000, that's still a reduction of 2938 Nazis. Not bad, Belkar. Not bad. His evil is now 2% of what it was when it started, more or less.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Anyways, at 62 Nazis out of his original 3000, that's still a reduction of 2938 Nazis. Not bad, Belkar. Not bad. His evil is now 2% of what it was when it started, more or less.

More like "Not bad, Roy." He is the one restraining and diverting Belkar, after all.

[Angelalex242]

Granted. And it's a HUGE gold star on Roy's permanent record if he can successfully get Belkar into Limbo, at least. In fact, it's an amazing feat devas should be lining up to high 5 him for when next he dies.

[lolthfollower]

has belkar alignment changed from Chaotic Evil to Neutral evil? it does seem like that to me given how he cares about his animal companions, and his explanation given in strip #745. Makes sense to me :)

Yeah, Belkar does seem different. Less mindless slaughter than there used to be, more care about other people. Belkar at the begining would have just stabbed Durkon when e thought he was not Durkon instea of acusing him. Belkar may be neutral evil now, but I think Rich just intends to make him a person instead of 2 knives with legs and an attitude.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Yeah, Belkar does seem different. Less mindless slaughter than there used to be, more care about other people. Belkar at the begining would have just stabbed Durkon when e thought he was not Durkon instea of acusing him. Belkar may be neutral evil now, but I think Rich just intends to make him a person instead of 2 knives with legs and an attitude.

Belkar did stab him. He only switched to making accusations when he saw that Roy still trusted Durkon and that his attacks weren't doing much.

[Glodart]

Honestly, I think Belkar is just as bad as Xykon, if not worse. He is shown enjoying the deaths of others much more often. Xykon, as an undead, does not have access to physical pleasures, Belkar does, but he still prefers killing above all else. The only reason they don't try to kill him is because he is less powerful, so also less dangerous.
Also, showing compassion once is not enough to warrant an alignment change

[Reddish Mage]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say I think Belkar is now neutral and the rest just don't appreciate how much he's changed.

I think this is a good example of how much he's changed. He isn't being hypocritical, he literally doesn't see bloodthirsty killing machines as being laudable anymore (which previously he did). He is inarguably showing empathy for other beings and acting more as a team player, and the evil acts he has been accused of in book five are of the thought I think are arguable or excusable.