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2014-05-23, 01:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Is it just me, or are Crusaders the worst ToB class?
I've been reading the ToB book in order to create some Initiators NPC and after reading all 3 base classes I'm pretty sure that the Crusader is the least synergetic of the 3.
He's a tank that has a d10, he gets heavy armor proficiency but benefits from a decent Dex (thicket of blades + Combat Reflexes), Stone Power gives him effectively DR 10/- but plenty of his strikes require the attack to actually hit, but he now has 25% less chance to do so. He gets Cha bonus to Will but it's arguably the worse of the mental stats. Yes, it can be really abused by RAW, but I'm yet to meet a DM that lets Diplomacy and Bluff really get out of hand... Int gives you skill pts, and Wis boosts Will and perception skills but you can't even the Cha with your smite attack because its uses per day is freaking ridiculous.
Also, Devoted Spirit seems to be the worse of the unique schools (especially since it can't destroy the sun). But seriously... Strike of Righteous Vitality is way weaker when compared to Strike of Perfect Clarity which is already pretty weak. Normal attack + Heal* (*maybe) vs bonus 100 damage pretty much falls into the theory that it's better to avoid damage by killing your foes quickly than by actually healing in combat.
Can anyone prove me wrong?
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2014-05-23, 02:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is it just me, or are Crusaders the worst ToB class?
I disagree with your assessment, but in the end it's just opinions.
The baseline Crusader isn't the strongest of the ToB classes (that goes to the Warblade), however, Crusader does have the highest optimization ceiling. If you look into the Idiot Crusader concept, you'll see just how ripe for abuse the Crusader's recovery mechanic really is.
As far as Devoted Spirit being the worst of the unique schools, it's my opinion that it's actually, overall, one of the strongest of the unique schools at its baseline. It provides mundane (Ex) healing while allowing the Crusader to also deal damage, providing one of the most effective combat healing methods in the game. It's biggest asset though are its stances, which are unfortunately easy to put aside seeing Crusader's extremely poorly thought out stance progression. However from the first level to the end, Devoted Spirit stances are typically some of the best in ToB. Martial Study allows unlimited out of combat healing, Iron Guard's Glare actually allows you to give an enemy a reason to attack you, Thicket of Blades is a must-have for melee lock-down, Aura of Chaos when utilized with large dice pool damage (such as sneak attack) can substantially increase average damage, Aura of Perfect Order provides a way to mitigate RNG, something optimizers will tell you is extremely important for creating a very powerful character, and Stance of Immortal Fortitude, which is just really powerful right on the tin.
I also disagree with your assessment of Righteous Strike of Vitality, and I believe it's one of the more powerful 9th level maneuvers. Typically healing in combat is considered a waste of an action unless it's the spell Heal. Heal generally provides enough HP boost/status effect relief that it can be a useful choice over damage. Strike of Righteous Vitality not only lets you cast Heal, it does so as an Ex ability, and lets you damage your opponent simultaneously.
Now, these are my opinions, and they're no more or less valid than yours. But with the Crusader's optimization ceiling being the highest of the bunch, it's hard for me to say it is the weakest.Last edited by Aegis013; 2014-05-23 at 02:04 AM.
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2014-05-23, 02:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is it just me, or are Crusaders the worst ToB class?
I'd say Crusaders probably have a lower optimization ceiling than other ToB classes, at least without RKV and TO tricks like the idiot/d2 Crusader. If you're in a high-op campaign where rocket tagging for 600 DPR in melee is the norm, some healing won't help you. However, in a mid-op campaign, they're a very solid class. I've played with them and DMed for them and they just don't die. Currently, I'm DMing for a party of tier 3 characters and the party Crusader can facetank opponents that would kill other party members in a single round.
Last edited by HammeredWharf; 2014-05-23 at 02:27 AM.
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2014-05-23, 03:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is it just me, or are Crusaders the worst ToB class?
I have to agree with Aegis013, for the most part. The Crusader does seem to have the highest ceiling, but also the lowest floor (not that that says much for a ToB class). Your assessment of CHA being the worst mental stat is largely true for a combat expert, but I feel like the class ability exists exactly to offset that and make it weigh equally to wis. And, in my personal opinion, CHA has nicer skills attached than Wis.
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2014-05-23, 04:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is it just me, or are Crusaders the worst ToB class?
Forget Devoted Spirit's healing. This is the school that lets you hit enemies so hard they can't attack your allies, make AoOs even on 5-foot steps (and possibly against tumbling enemies), make all attacks against anyone other than you take a fairly large penalty, and take 11 on any roll. The healing just makes it so that when you do get hit (it's your job, after all) it doesn't put you down. These are all things that make crusader the only viable tank in the game.
When you add in White Raven it just gets better.
I'll grant you that natively crusaders have somewhat dissynergistic ability score requirements, but remember that ToB is very dip friendly, so dipping Marshal for Charisma to initiative, Bard for Charisma to Attack, or something similar is absolutely feasible. And of course you don't get a ton out of Charisma natively, allowing you to focus entirely on the physical stats if you prefer.Author of The Auspician's Handbook and The Tempestarian's Handbook for Spheres of Power.Greenman by Bradakhan/Spring Greenman by Comissar/Autumn Greenman by Sgt. Pepper/Winter Greenman by gurgleflep
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2014-05-23, 04:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is it just me, or are Crusaders the worst ToB class?
You can dip into Warblade or Swordsage and almost forget about the Charisma bonus to Will saves. Not being able to access Diamond Mind is, IMO, Crusader's greatest weakness relative to other ToB classes.
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2014-05-23, 02:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is it just me, or are Crusaders the worst ToB class?
You make some good points and the only ne I trully disagree is the Idiot Crusader one (and the eventual d2 Crusader argument as well). As I see, both of these builds are TO and if you want to use this argument, then Paladin 1 is the strongest build in the game. Abusable mechanics don't make for solid classes, they make cheddar filled 5ft cubes of meat with sharp edges that no sane DM would allow .
I also think that (Ex) healing is overrated. Out of combat healing is really cheap and during combat there are better things to do. The only really good use of it would be inside and AMF. While good, I don't think it justifies being dubbed "one of the strongest of the unique schools".
While I wholeheartedly agree that the stances are awesome Crusaders get so few stances and since you're only able to use one at a time you're forced with choices that you sometimes can't afford to make. Thicket of Blades or Ironguard's glare? At lower levels that -4 on attacks can pretty much be the difference between life and death, but dishing out extra AoO can be too. While Aura of Law is good, "taking 11" once per turn on an attack only forces more choices between which stance to use. Protect your allies vs deal more damage. You have to choose between protecting your allies and killing your foes, but since you're a tank, you should choose the former, making the latter less useful. If what you want is to kill everyone quickly, the Warblade and Swordsage are better suited for you. Also, both of these classes are more "selfish" per se. They pretty much only need to focus on themselves during combat and what benefits themselves the most to do well in a fight (this last bit should be taken with a grain of salt of course)
I wouldn't call our campaign "high op", but it's definitely "above average op". Last time I played I had Duskblade dealing ~250 DPR at lv 16. While not as optimized as some characters I've seem in the forum such as the ubercharger or the mailman, I'm pretty sure he was dealing more damage than what was expected of him by the designers. So, healing 150 (maybe) at a minimum lv of 17 isn't really wonderful. It's decent, but doesn't really qualify for "best maneuver"
Yes, it seems people that say crusaders are OP are the same people that use WR tactics to get infinite attacks per round.
As for rocket tag, it's as I replyed to Aegis. I wouldn't call our campaign "high op", but it's definitely "above average op". Last time I played I had Duskblade dealing ~250 DPR at lv 16. While not as optimized as some characters I've seem in the forum such as the ubercharger or the mailman, I'm pretty sure he was dealing more damage than what was expected of him by the designers. So healing 150 (maybe) at a minimum lv of 17 isn't really wonderful. It's decent, but doesn't really qualify for "best maneuver"
That is true, but it's also true that the Crusader is supposed to be a Combat Expert/Tank. If you want to be the party's face, there are tons of WAY better classes for that... Heck, Warblades probably are a better face due to their increased skill pts and Know. (local) which gives them bonuses to Gather Info.
Only works if you actually hit, which means Stone Power probably won't be used. AoO are only provoked from you, which means you need high-ish Dex. Can't be used with Thicket of Blades.
Warblades also have White Raven and are arguably better at using it what with Song of the WR and enough skill points to get some ranks in Perform.
The Cha synergy really becomes pretty useless because they're so MAD with needing Str, Dex, Con, (some) Int and Cha.
I thought about this but totaly forgot to put it in the OP. For the cost of one readied maneuver the Warblade can have all of his saves decent. Good Fort, Ok Refx and Awesome Will!
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All in all, I still think Crusaders are weaker than the other 2 classes. While definitely stronger than a similarly optimized fighter and still less MAD than the paladin, I haven't shaken the idea that the Warblade is superior in almost every aspect and that the Swordsage is fluffier and more versatile
But thanks the answers everyone!
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2014-05-23, 02:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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2014-05-23, 02:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is it just me, or are Crusaders the worst ToB class?
Even if it were true, Crusader is still one of the better classes out there.
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2014-05-23, 03:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is it just me, or are Crusaders the worst ToB class?
@OP:
I guess so? I mean, "worst ToB class" sounds to me like "lightest sumo wrestler" or something; technically it may be true but the range is pretty small.
And even that analogy doesn't quite work because you then have to define "worst at what?" If it comes to "tanking," inasmuch as you can do that in D&D, the Crusader is superior to the Warblade in that regard, both in terms of surviving himself and in terms of keeping the physically weaker members of the group alive.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2014-05-23, 03:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is it just me, or are Crusaders the worst ToB class?
As I qualified my previous post with, opinions are opinions. Yours are perfectly valid. I take into account optimization ceiling (including TO tricks) when I consider the strength of a class. I only have a few minor rebuttals.
This is my sentiment. D2 Crusader is definitely TO, but I don't think Idiot Crusader is TO unless you use a few particular abuses; White Raven Tactics on self being the big one. Most DMs won't let you do that anyway in my experience. I have, however, been allowed to play an Idiot Crusader in an actual game, considering that the trick takes some time to come online, isn't overly powerful compared to the optimization level at which the groups I've played with operate.
As far as Aura of Perfect Order is concerned, using it on an attack is, in my opinion, one of the weakest options for it. Unless you're intimately aware of your enemy's AC/defenses so you can optimize your Power Attack/Stone Power expense and guarantee a hit on the second iterative, I find the most useful ways to utilize "take 11" is on saving throws and other checks.
On Strike of Righteous Vitality, healing 150 hp would be pretty weak. That's not what we're talking about though. We're talking probably landing a solid 50 damage, healing someone 150 hp, and removing ability damage, blinded, confused, dazed, dazzled, deafened, diseased, exhausted, fatigued, feebleminded, insanity, nauseated, sickened, stunned, and poisoned from yourself or an ally. Some of those conditions are nasty. A good deal of them will be utilized (I find especially ability damage) in battles at the level where Strike of Righteous Vitality is available.
In the end though, it's still all just opinions. And I agree that Warblade at baseline is the clear top dog in ToB, I'm just not sure if Swordsage is stronger than Crusader. I find them quite even.Last edited by Aegis013; 2014-05-23 at 03:13 PM.
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2014-05-23, 04:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is it just me, or are Crusaders the worst ToB class?
A build that can "cast" Heal 99% of the time (especially if you neglect power attack and stone power and use Aura of Perfect Order) and can also abuse WR Tactics to get infinite turns (which would also mean Infinity Damage), though you don't really need Idiot Crusader for that, is something I would qualify as TO.
You're both right. The Crusader is definitely on the upper half of classes. It's just that, when compared to the other 2, he seems underwhelming to say the least. Like I said in my OP, his class features lack synergy unlike the Warblade's or the Swordsage's. And while he's a good (likely the best) tank, I feel there are very few classes out there that really need a tank. We all know you can't really kill a wizard, even at lower levels, unless you pit him and his party against a level inappropriate encounter. He also doesn't have the skill points required to be the face of the party or do anything skill related for that matter (open locks and disable traps for example). He can't easily access spells by himself to boost his versatility.
All in all, he's really good a tanking and that's pretty much it.
Wow. I completely read past the last line of Aura of Perfect Order... For some reason I thought it was attacks only. Oops... Yeah, taking 11 once per turn for anything you want is way better than just choosing an attack.
Yeah, Strike of Righteous Vitality is good, but it's also something that your party's cleric got 6 levels ago... I never said it wasn't useful. It's just that, again, it feels underwhelming at lv17.Last edited by heavyfuel; 2014-05-23 at 04:06 PM.
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2014-05-23, 04:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is it just me, or are Crusaders the worst ToB class?
Not everyone who plays a wizard in this game is Tippy. I would say that the percentage of folks who can actually play a wizard to its potential in a real-life game is much smaller than you think. Not to mention that there are counters that work well against Wizards that won't actually raise the difficulty for the other people in the game, like dispels and AMF.
First off - with Cha synergy, 4+Int skills and two of the social skills they make a decent face too. Second, they have a very unique form of healing that can save a group's life in a high lethality/survival game. where the trees aren't raining cure wands.Last edited by Psyren; 2014-05-23 at 04:57 PM.
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2014-05-23, 05:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is it just me, or are Crusaders the worst ToB class?
Heal every turn isn't TO, because you can't heal past your max HP and anything properly TO can one-shot you.
and can also abuse WR Tactics to get infinite turns (which would also mean Infinity Damage), though you don't really need Idiot Crusader for that, is something I would qualify as TO.
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2014-05-23, 05:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is it just me, or are Crusaders the worst ToB class?
Yeah, but if we're comparing Strike of Righteous Vitality to other 9th level maneuvers, or we're comparing Crusader to other ToB classes, Cleric has nothing to do with it. All of the maneuvers feel lackluster next to my Shadowcraft Mage/Incantatrix's abilities, but I don't see how it's relevant to the topic.
Still though... opinions. I don't think anybody is going to convince you that Crusader isn't the weakest ToB class. I think you've already made up your mind.
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2014-05-23, 05:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is it just me, or are Crusaders the worst ToB class?
I support many of these statements. Up till today I always thought of warblade as being the lowest tier of the 3 ("weakest if you want to call it this way").
It is true that generally charisma is a bad combat stat but so is intelligence. Also devoted spirit is in my personal feeling one of the strongest disciplines. It has nice way of healing plus other supportive tricks but it also has one of the best damage abilities at early levels namely divine surge. 8d8 damage is nothing to sneeze at.
Swordsages rule supreme but crusaders at least make an attempt in getting out of combat stuff and warblade are generally agreed to be tier 4 instead of 3.Xeph Nomad by the marvellous Iron Penguin
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2014-05-23, 05:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is it just me, or are Crusaders the worst ToB class?
You don't need to be Tippy to get Abrupt Jaunt (or whatever it's called). It's right there on the ACFs list haha. But it's true, not everyone plays God / Batman / Control / whatever wizard.
As for survival games, it's a point I honestly hadn't thought about. I was thinking about the standard campaign where you get recommended WBL and magic is aplenty.
I always thought that IHS the sun wasn't really possible, even by RAW. But that's beside the point. The point is that, as far as I know, the Crusader alone can abuse WRT. By this token, a d2 Crusader would be abusing Imbued Healing and Aura of Chaos. A fighter/cleric/RKV can become a d2 "Crusader", but that doesn't make the d2 Crusader (no quotes) less TO.
That's a good point. Pitting ToB against Tier 1 classes isn't really a fair argument.
As for changing my mind, there have been plenty of really good arguments in favor of the Crusader. While I still think that the Warblade takes the cake I'm pretty sure that the Crusader is on par with the Swordsage. A different fluff and a different focus mechanically, but on par nonetheless. I still think he's the MADest of the 3, and less synergetic, but his abilities do compensate for his shortcomings.
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2014-05-23, 06:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is it just me, or are Crusaders the worst ToB class?
Sworsages are the best ToB class? This is new to me. Explain pls.
MAD, poor refresh, subpar Desert Wind school, no Iron Heart...
I must be building my swordsages wrong.
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2014-05-23, 06:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is it just me, or are Crusaders the worst ToB class?
Unique Shadow Hand access, along with the huge pile of maneuvers known, makes them the best utility initiators. It also makes a great dip, arguably better than Warblade, but obviously it's for different types of classes.
OP: I agree that Crusader is the most limited ToB class, but if you want to play a control-type character you want at least two levels for Thicket of Blades.Originally Posted by The Giant
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2014-05-23, 06:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is it just me, or are Crusaders the worst ToB class?
Swordsage is the weakest ToB class. MAD, medium BAB, lowest HD, feat starved (no bonus; needs one just to function properly), and is lacking all of the best maneuvers. Remember, quality beats quantity. I'd take White Raven Tactics and Iron Heart Surge over *any* ten maneuvers from Desert Wind.
Crusader is possibly the best class. The base itself isn't as sexy as Warblade, but the real power is the recovery mechanic (no action cost) and how powerfully it combines with adept prestige classes (each readied maneuver also boosts granted by +1), and that's the one thing you carry with you when you jump to a PrC. It also is the natural entry point for the strongest class in all of ToB (Ruby Knight Vindicator), and can reasonably easily get into the other best ones (JPM, Eternal Blade). Devoted Spirit is one of the better disciplines, with a great mix of all three maneuver types and some of the best stances in the entire book. The only reason Warblade is probably better is just because it gets WR Tactics *and* IH Surge. Well, the moronic class stance progression hurts a bit, too.Last edited by StreamOfTheSky; 2014-05-23 at 06:46 PM.
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2014-05-23, 06:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is it just me, or are Crusaders the worst ToB class?
Just a thought, DR 10 is WAY better. 10 temp HP works once, against one attack and that's it.
DR 10 would be amazing and you could have a small army attacking you and effectively have +NI hp, because 10 is taken off each attack.
Throw in Psicrystal affinity and share pain (even without vigor) and, effectively, have hardness 8 and DR 10/-. THAT is powerful. But +10 hp once, every round, is far inferior.
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2014-05-23, 07:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is it just me, or are Crusaders the worst ToB class?
I've never played a swordsage who took more than 1 desert wind maneuver. Pointing out that they have access to a bad school is irrelevant. Shadow Hand, Setting Sun, Diamond Mind and (a bit of) Tiger Claw are relevant. I agree the chassis is weak though. Again, it makes a better dip, where you're not relying on strikes. You're relying on utility, mobility and defensive maneuvers to complement your full attacks, so it doesn't matter as much if/when they run out.
Crusader is possibly the best class. The base itself isn't as sexy as Warblade, but the real power is the recovery mechanic (no action cost) and how powerfully it combines with adept prestige classes (each readied maneuver also boosts granted by +1)Originally Posted by The Giant
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2014-05-23, 07:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is it just me, or are Crusaders the worst ToB class?
Yes, but that's like saying telepaths are the worst psions.
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2014-05-23, 08:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is it just me, or are Crusaders the worst ToB class?
Last edited by Karnith; 2014-05-23 at 08:01 PM.
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2014-05-23, 08:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is it just me, or are Crusaders the worst ToB class?
I know that. Rereading my OP I noticed it didn't come across as so... It's just that in one of the handbooks it's described as such and I even saw it a few times in some boards. But regardless, it seems every single person thinks this feat is THE feat to be taken by crusaders, but losing attack bonus for some temp HP when there so many maneuvers that require you actually hit, having the maximum amount of BAB capped at a ridiculous 5 and with no way to negate the penalty (like Shock Trooper), the feat seems sub par to say the least.
Last edited by heavyfuel; 2014-05-23 at 08:49 PM.
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2014-05-23, 08:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is it just me, or are Crusaders the worst ToB class?
Can someone show me a well-built swordsage who could contribute in a practically optimized T3 party?
This is my only swordsage sheet so far. Help me improve pls.
edit
Excuse my maneuvers if they don't add up correctly. I just threw this together to be approximately what a swordsage should look like at level 8.Last edited by cosmonuts; 2014-05-23 at 09:08 PM.
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2014-05-23, 10:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is it just me, or are Crusaders the worst ToB class?
Another, admittedly rare, situation where a crusader's healing is very useful is in the Mournlands. Other than those maneuvers, your options are psionics (and fewer classes have UPD than UMD), retreating to extra dimensional space (which a DM may rule doesn't work), and goodberries and their wine (which are kind of pitiful). In this case, a crusader is literally a lifesaver all the time.
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2014-05-24, 12:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is it just me, or are Crusaders the worst ToB class?
We've covered the class' ability to soak and tank, its automatic maneuver recovery and its easy-entry into powerful PrCs. But I'd like to emphasize the healing (which others have mentioned).
This is a point that cannot be emphasized enough - Devoted Spirit is one of the only sources of combat healing that works as advertised. Let me be clear - other sources of healing can be used in combat. But that's generally frowned upon on these forums, and for good reason - it's an inefficient waste of actions and resources, which exposes you to needless risk. Any turn spent healing in combat could better be spent killing the thing that's attacking you, thus obviating the need to heal at all.
Devoted Spirit does both, does them well, can do them all day, and can do so without triggering attacks of opportunity.
Crusader is the only one of the three ToB base classes that gets native access to Devoted Spirit.
I think this is really worth repeating. The Crusader is the only class in the game that gets native, immediate access to the most efficient combat healing effects in the game.
Complain about the class as you like. But Devoted Spirit healing is just that good.My headache medicine has a little "Ex" inscribed on the pill. It's not a brand name; it's an indicator that it works inside an Anti-Magic Field.
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2014-05-24, 02:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is it just me, or are Crusaders the worst ToB class?
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2014-05-24, 05:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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