Mutants & Masterminds III: How to build some powers?

[jguy]

Hey, since you all seem very knowledgeable, can you help explain to me Variable, and Alternate effect? I am confused by some of the point costs especially to array. So if I spend 10 points on a rank 10 power and make it an array, how much would it be to add another power to it and at what rank? What is the limit to that power and point wise? For variable, it just seems so open ended honestly

[Sith_Happens]

if I spend 10 points on a rank 10 power and make it an array, how much would it be to add another power to it and at what rank?

It would cost 1 point to add another power to the array, and the alternate power could cost up to 10 points. If you want the array to be dynamic, that costs another 1 point per power.

What is the limit to that power and point wise?

You can add as many powers to the array as you have points to spend, the only limitation being that they all need to have some thematic connection to each other as deemed appropriate by the GM.

For variable, it just seems so open ended honestly

It is that open-ended and that's the point, hence the sidebar describing it as the effect of last resort. It's for characters like Beast Boy whose powers are too, well, variable to be modeled any other way.

[Grod_The_Giant]

yea but I feel that it doesn't leave enough room for other powers I may want.

So, basically, you want a powerful character, but can't have one because of the game's balancing factors? There are ways of squeezing more points out of a concept, usually by careful use of arrays. But, you know... sometimes you just want more than you can get. If you want robot immunities, you've got to pay for robot immunities.

[jguy]

How do I get a linked ability that goes one way but not another? I want to make a fungus based superhero that creates mushrooms to release spore for affects. I want to have to create a mushroom to use the spores but not have to use the spore attacks when creating a mushroom.

[Sith_Happens]

How do I get a linked ability that goes one way but not another? I want to make a fungus based superhero that creates mushrooms to release spore for affects. I want to have to create a mushroom to use the spores but not have to use the spore attacks when creating a mushroom.

Just make the docile mushrooms an alternate effect of the spore-releasing ones.

[jguy]

Another question. Why would I take the skill Ranged Combat X that I can only apply to one category (say guns) when I can take the advantage Ranged Attack and have it apply to all ranged attacks? Is it because you get two skills per PP vs 1 rank per PP on advantages or am I missing something?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Another question. Why would I take the skill Ranged Combat X that I can only apply to one category (say guns) when I can take the advantage Ranged Attack and have it apply to all ranged attacks? Is it because you get two skills per PP vs 1 rank per PP on advantages or am I missing something?

If you're only ever going to use one type of ranged attack-- say, Ranged Combat (Power Blasts), it's cheaper to use the skill. If you want proficiency with two or more types of ranged attack, then the Advantage is a better deal. (I tend to see that more often with Close Combat than with ranged, when I want characters who can use their fists or a weapon.)

[jguy]

Okay this is my attempt at making a power and I want to see if I got the rules right. I want to make a lot of mushrooms wherever a want and have them emit a variety of spores that can either put someone to sleep, cause them debilitating pain, or even temporary mind control. This is at PL 10

Spore mushrooms: 25 points
• Create (Mushrooms) Rank 5 Subtle 1 Flaw – Permanent = 11 points
• Linked to Affliction Rank 10 (Dazed, Stunned, Asleep resisted by will) = 10 points + Area 2 (Cloud) = 30 foot cloud: 2 points
• Array Affliction Rank 10 (Fatigued, Exhausted, paralyzed Resisted by Fort) + Area 2 (Cloud) = 30 foot cloud: 1 point
• Array Affliction Rank 10 (Entranced, Compelled, Controlled, Resisted by Will) + Area 2 (Cloud) = 30 foot cloud: 1 point

[Grod_The_Giant]

• Create (Mushrooms) Rank 5 Subtle 1 Flaw – Permanent = 11 points
• Linked to Affliction Rank 10 (Dazed, Stunned, Asleep resisted by will) = 10 points + Area 2 (Cloud) = 30 foot cloud: 2 points

If I'm reading this correctly, you put the Linked Affliction inside your array, as a dynamic alternate? I'm, ah... I'm not entirely sure if this works (I guess every point you subtract from the Create power would go towards buying up the Affliction?), but I can't say I recommend it. It's also an invalid Linking, since the two powers appear to have different ranges.

Instead, I'd try:

• Create, Linked to Affliction A

• Create
• Affliction A
• Affliction B
• Affliction C

[jguy]

I was thinking of buying up create to 10 I just didn't picture her making several tons of mushrooms. Is there anyway to make an affliction at range that isn't centered on me?

[Grod_The_Giant]

I was thinking of buying up create to 10 I just didn't picture her making several tons of mushrooms.

You could buy ranks your 5 ranks of Create, and then another 5 ranks with an added flaw along the lines of "Limited: Does not increase volume."

Is there anyway to make an affliction at range that isn't centered on me?

The Increased Range modifier. Once will make it a Ranged attack, for +1 point/rank, which is the same as Create. A Ranged Cloud Area Affliction would affect all targets in the 15ft cloud, placed anywhere within (rank*100) feet.

[jguy]

So I could do something along the lines of Ranged Affliction 10 (20 points) + Area 2 [Cloud] (2 points) linked to Create (mushrooms) 1 rank (flaw - permanent) (2 points) to make it so that at up to 1000 feet away I can make a small patch of mushrooms that emit a cloud of spores? Could I then have an array of different ranged afflictions for 1 point each that would swap out with the first but still keep the Create (mushrooms) 1 link? I was thinking of having Create (mushrooms) 10 be it's own separate power so I could have non-spore mushrooms or would it be better to make the first Create a 10 and then in the array just have another Create 10 with nothing added?

Also, under what sense power and how many ranks would I need to be able to perceive things through mushrooms and other fungus? Say within 300 feet?

Sorry for asking so many questions of you, I just discovered this game and I find it so fascinating and interesting.

[Lord Raziere]

hm, no, that just sounds like an overly complicated way of just having the Summon power keyed to mushrooms.

Summon (Mushroom), Controlled, Ranged, Mental Link, 41 points, rank 10

much more elegant! the Mushroom itself is now a monster under your complete control with 150 points of powers! since you want them to be immobile (since they're mushrooms) and thus either get rid of Strength or Agility....or lots of other Attributes, Mushrooms are not real mobile, intelligent, strong or capable of social interaction so there are lots of bonus points to be found in creating a mushroom minion! just get rid of most of those needless Attributes! you can get rid of everything but Stamina really. congratulations! you now have 70 bonus points for your mushroom!

you don't even HAVE to put any powers you want into an array with 220 points for your to spend, none of them going into skills or defenses or advantages, leaving you nothing but powers! just imagine the possibilities. if you want to create more than one, that would require Multiple Minions +2 per rank of Multiple Minions, thus allow you to have MORE 220 point mushroom minions! oh and be sure that they themselves have some form of Summon (Mushroom) so that you can spread the mushroom madness EVEN FURTHER!

as for the second question what your asking for is:

Remote Sensing (All Senses), Medium (Mushrooms), 20 points, rank 5 (40 points if you want rank 10)

[jguy]

I thought of having mushroom minions but I don't see her as a minion-mancer. Also, at the level of flexibility I could do virtually anything since the mushrooms have more power points than I do! I just thought of a much simpler way. Have the ranged afflictions and just have Feature 1 (creates a small patch of mushrooms at center of cloud) and be done with it.

[Lord Raziere]

I thought of having mushroom minions but I don't see her as a minion-mancer. Also, at the level of flexibility I could do virtually anything since the mushrooms have more power points than I do! I just thought of a much simpler way. Have the ranged afflictions and just have Feature 1 (creates a small patch of mushrooms at center of cloud) and be done with it.

*shrug* whatever floats your boat, they're not really minions with all the things they'd lack anyways- just stationary turret-shrooms that follow your every command.

[jguy]

*shrug* whatever floats your boat, they're not really minions with all the things they'd lack anyways- just stationary turret-shrooms that follow your every command.

No, just mushrooms that have 220 PP and make variability players cry tears of envy.

[Grod_The_Giant]

So I could do something along the lines of Ranged Affliction 10 (20 points) + Area 2 [Cloud] (2 points) linked to Create (mushrooms) 1 rank (flaw - permanent) (2 points) to make it so that at up to 1000 feet away I can make a small patch of mushrooms that emit a cloud of spores? Could I then have an array of different ranged afflictions for 1 point each that would swap out with the first but still keep the Create (mushrooms) 1 link? I was thinking of having Create (mushrooms) 10 be it's own separate power so I could have non-spore mushrooms or would it be better to make the first Create a 10 and then in the array just have another Create 10 with nothing added?

Also, under what sense power and how many ranks would I need to be able to perceive things through mushrooms and other fungus? Say within 300 feet?

Sorry for asking so many questions of you, I just discovered this game and I find it so fascinating and interesting.

It's a pretty awesome game, though it takes a bit of getting used to. I really need to finish that newbie's guide one of these days...

First off, I'll note that you're using Area wrong. It's a +1/rank modifier, meaning that each rank of the Area power costs an additional point. An Area 2 (Cloud) Ranged Affliction would cost 4 points/rank-- 1 base, +1 for increased range, +2 for applying Area twice.

Secondly, when you want to "create mushrooms that emit spores," do you want that to have a mechanical effect beyond the spores? You could have a Ranged Area (Cloud) Affliction (3/rank), with the "fluff" (descriptors) that you're creating mushrooms to emit spores. (Probably Indirect 2 to have the cloud emanate from below, but that's a minor point). The Create power is specifically for creating large, solid objects-- walls and domes of mushrooms.

So you could have a "mushroom power" array like so:

• Sleep 'Shrooms: Create 5, Subtle, Permanent; Linked to Ranged Cloud Affliction 10 (Fatigued, Exhausted, Asleep; Fortitude), Indirect 2 (From Created 'shroom) (43 points)

• Paralyzing 'Shrooms: Create 5, Subtle, Permanent; Linked to Ranged Cloud Affliction 10 (Dazed, Stunned, Paralyzed; Fortitude), Indirect 2 (From Created 'shroom) (1 point)
• Control 'Shrooms: Create 5, Subtle, Permanent; Linked to Ranged Cloud Affliction 10 (Entranced, Compelled, Controlled; Fortitude), Indirect 2 (From Created 'shroom) (1 point)
• Solid 'Shrooms: Create 10, Subtle, Permanent, Impervious* (1 point)

Using any of the first three powers would create a 30 cubic foot chunk of fungus, surrounded by a 15ft radius cloud of spores that would linger for one turn. The last wouldn't generate any spores, but would generate a thousand cubic feet of mushrooms that ignore Damage effects less than 5.

Alternately, you could do something like:

• Sleep 'Shrooms: Ranged Cloud Affliction 10 (Fatigued, Exhausted, Asleep; Fortitude), Indirect 2 (From Below) (32 points)

• Paralyzing 'Shrooms: Ranged Cloud Affliction 10 (Dazed, Stunned, Paralyzed; Fortitude), Indirect 2 (From Below) (1 point)
• Control 'Shrooms: Ranged Cloud Affliction 10 (Entranced, Compelled, Controlled; Fortitude), Indirect 2 (From Below) (1 point)
• Solid 'Shrooms: Create 10, Subtle, Permanent, Impervious* (1 point)

The first three would be described as "generating a patch of mushrooms, which in turn generate a cloud of spores." The mushrooms would be window dressing, with no mechanical effect on gameplay, but the spores would still be around. The final power is exactly the same.

If you want to create mushrooms that literally sit around and generate clouds of spores, then Summon would be the way to go, as jguy suggested. His suggestion does reveal an oddity about the Summon power, which is that even though you don't need many power points for a spore-generating 'shroom, you need the full 150-point-monster Summon 10 to get a PL-appropriate cloud. To avoid that, I'd buy enough ranks of normal Summon to afford the critter, than enough ranks of Summon, Limited to increasing PL to hit PL 10.

Something like this, perhaps: Summon (Mushroom Buddies) 2, Multiple Minions 2; Summon (Mushroom Buddies) +8, Limited to increasing PL, Multiple Minions 2; Mental Link-- 63 points. (6/rank for the first 2 ranks, 5/rank for the rest-- easy to modify by increasing or reducing the Multiple minions. Dropping that to one would put you at 43 points, which is more reasonable).

Spoiler: Mushroom Buddies-- 30 points

Show

Abilities: Absent Strength, Dexterity, Agility, Fighting, Intellect, Presence; Stamina 10, Awareness 0-- +40 points
Defenses: Dodge 0, Parry 0, Toughness 10, Fortitude 10, Will immune-- 0 points
Powers:

• Mushroom Body: Immunity 34 (All effects resistible by Will, Suffocation, Critical Hits)-- 34 points
• Fungal Feelers: Senses 7 (Detect Movement, Ranged, Radius, Accurate, Counters Illusion); Reduced Senses 7 (No vision or hearing)*-- 0 points
• Spore Cannon (Array): As the secod array, but with Area 2 (Cloud 2) instead of Ranged Cloud, and no Indirect-- 32 points
  Skills: Perception +8 (4 points)
  
  Note: add in 5 extra points somewhere; Summon goes up by 15-pp increments. These guys can't move, manipulate objects, make physical attacks, and have no free will or independent thought, but they're immune to mental effects and all interaction skills even before the Will immunity, and have at least some chance of taking a hit. They can't see or hear, but they can pinpoint nearby movement and generate 30-ft radius clouds of spores.

*I'm not entirely sure how to handle this one... here, I counted up all the Sense powers that would be lost and called it a day.

*I added Impervious because there were a lot of points in the array to play with, and I hate to see 'em wasted. You might even kick the duration in the first array up to Continuous, if you want-- you've got the points for it.

[jguy]

Oh wow, thanks a ton Grod. You hit the nose on the head for the second one. I realized small mushrooms popping up was just fluff. What I got confused on for Area was the section before hand stating partial cost. Like I could do 2 points only and get a 30 foot cloud at the end but now I understand. I was writing up my own changes that was very similar to what you had for the second one but yours is so much better and more streamlined. I'm almost done with her build and will be posting it up in a little for you all to critique.

Sidenote question: For create, I can choose to scale back how much I make in one use right? I can do less than 30 cubic feet each time I use it or will I be dropping a house on someone per casting?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Oh wow, thanks a ton Grod. You hit the nose on the head for the second one. I realized small mushrooms popping up was just fluff. What I got confused on for Area was the section before hand stating partial cost. Like I could do 2 points only and get a 30 foot cloud at the end but now I understand. I was writing up my own changes that was very similar to what you had for the second one but yours is so much better and more streamlined. I'm almost done with her build and will be posting it up in a little for you all to critique.

No problem, I love this stuff. I actually went back and edited my post to make a more reasonable version of jguy's mushroom summons, although it winds up being extremely expensive for you. (That's what you get for trying to break the action economy!)

Sidenote question: For create, I can choose to scale back how much I make in one use right? I can do less than 30 cubic feet each time I use it or will I be dropping a house on someone per casting?

Yes, you can create less than your maximum.

[jguy]

Okay, here is the finished product minus most the background:

Spoiler: Decomp

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Hero: Decomp (hero name is a work in progress) Identity: Valery Vesca
Power Level: 10 (150 points)
Abilities 22 + Defenses 20 + Skills 5 + Advantages 17 + Powers 86 = 150
Abilities: 22 points
Str 1; Agl 0; Fgt 2; Awe 0; Sta 10(4); Dex 3; Int 1; Pre 0
Defense: 20 points
Dodge 6(0); Parry 6(2); Fortitude10; Toughness 14; Will 10 (0)
Offense:
Initiative +0
Heavy Pistol +10 (DC19)
Knife +10 (DC 17)
Super Rotting +10 (DC 25)
Skills: 5 points
Acrobatics +5
Athletics +6(5)
Advantages: 17 points
Close Attack +8
Ranged Attack +7
Equipment +2
Powers: 86
Fungus Biology: 23
• Enhanced Trait (Stamina) 6 (12 points)
• Immortality 5 Flaw – Must be covered in soil that can support fungal life (5 points)
• Immunity 2 – Fungal powers (1 point) Starvation and Thirst (2 point)
• Protection 4 (4 points)
Mushroom Powers: 35
• Sleep 'Shrooms: Ranged Cloud Affliction 10 (Fatigued, Exhausted, Asleep; Will), Indirect 2 (From Below) (32 points)
o Paralyzing 'Shrooms: Ranged Cloud Affliction 10 (Dazed, Stunned, Paralyzed; Fortitude), Indirect 2 (From Below) (1 point)
o Control 'Shrooms: Ranged Cloud Affliction 10 (Entranced, Compelled, Controlled; Will), Indirect 2 (From Below) (1 point)
o Solid 'Shrooms: Create 10, Subtle, Permanent, Impervious (1 point)
Fungus Viewing: 8
• Remote Viewing 4 (Visual+Hearing = 12) + Medium(Fungus) (-4) = 8
Super Rotting: 20 points
• Blast Rank 10
Equipment: 2 points
Knife
Heavy Pistol

Spoiler: My Thoughts

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While I was first thinking of her, I wanted my heroine to be able to make a lot of mushrooms/fungus, rot things away, see through fungus, and have a lot of spore effects. When I came up with her name, inspired by mushroom genus names, she sounded Russian and that is where much the rest came out. She is a hard, practical person who takes after her dad. She was taught how to fight and defend herself and is very pragmatic. I pictured her almost like a terminator too. Taking damage but always moving forward through sheer determination. I realize her dodge and parry are low and that her Toughness might be a bit much. I could easily lower the enhanced stamina by two and put those spare 4 points into dodge and parry to bring them up to 8 but I have no sense of reference for what that will do vs what I have now. I'm thinking of replacing the Immortality with regeneration but I don't know just yet.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Looks alright. Thoughts:

• A 6/14 split is pretty big, yeah, although not unreasonable. If you're adding Regeneration, it might be a bit too much, though.
• I agree that Regeneration would be better than Immortality here.
• I don't think the knives and pistols are really worth it, mechanically speaking.
• For your rot blast thing, have you considered a Ranged Weaken effect? (Weaken Stamina or Weaken Toughness would both be solid). That seems a bit more fitting for a rot blast. You could have both in an array, of course. I'd also suggest adding a Close Area (Cone) version of whichever you go with, for a less focused blast.

[jguy]

If I dropped immortality and added regeneration, then I should probably make it a 8/12 split then huh? Since I've never played, I don't know how that'd effect the game if I didn't change the split up.

The knife and pistol are pretty much pure flavor. I picture her as someone who always carried some sort of weapon on her before her powers and that didn't change when she got them. I had a taser in there too but had to make some adjustments when you gave me the much more streamlined array.

I considered the weakening effect for my Rot Blast but I decided to theme it more as "such virulent, fast growing fungus that it outright damages the target". The fact that blasts can damage objects and Weaken cannot (or at least without add-ons I think) gives me the pleasant image of a fungus eating away at steel and stone. I could just outright drop the equipment for the two points and put them in an array with both those items but I already kind of feel scummy with my earlier array, getting 3 additional powers for only 3 points. I know the optimizer in me would abuse arrays too much if I let it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

If I dropped immortality and added regeneration, then I should probably make it a 8/12 split then huh? Since I've never played, I don't know how that'd effect the game if I didn't change the split up.

A 14-Toughness character with significant amounts of Regeneration will be very hard to put down with normal damage. It's up to you and your GM if that's acceptable or not. Personally, I'd encourage the 8/12 split, but again... that's just me.

The knife and pistol are pretty much pure flavor. I picture her as someone who always carried some sort of weapon on her before her powers and that didn't change when she got them. I had a taser in there too but had to make some adjustments when you gave me the much more streamlined array.

Fair enough.

I considered the weakening effect for my Rot Blast but I decided to theme it more as "such virulent, fast growing fungus that it outright damages the target". The fact that blasts can damage objects and Weaken cannot (or at least without add-ons I think) gives me the pleasant image of a fungus eating away at steel and stone. I could just outright drop the equipment for the two points and put them in an array with both those items but I already kind of feel scummy with my earlier array, getting 3 additional powers for only 3 points. I know the optimizer in me would abuse arrays too much if I let it.

Arrays are not cheating. Arrays are the only way you can get versatile characters out of the system. Using arrays effectively is one of the prime arts of M&M. It's not "scummy," "cheesy," or anything like that. I mean, it can be if you abuse it, but that takes some doing-- really huge arrays, or ones without any real thematic limit are bad. But having a "mushroom growth" array and a "rot blast" array is... more than fine, really. It's how the game is meant to be played.

[Sith_Happens]

Have the ranged afflictions and just have Feature 1 (creates a small patch of mushrooms at center of cloud) and be done with it.

This is what I was going to suggest if you only want small mushrooms, and the Feature is only if you want to pluck them afterwards and make a stew or something. Otherwise they're just a descriptor (which is what you ended up doing, although your current build doesn't have a "harmless mushrooms" option like you originally wanted).

The knife and pistol are pretty much pure flavor. I picture her as someone who always carried some sort of weapon on her before her powers and that didn't change when she got them. I had a taser in there too but had to make some adjustments when you gave me the much more streamlined array.

You can have an array of equipment, which should save you that point that you want for the alternate Rot Blast.

[Beleriphon]

If you want to create mushrooms that literally sit around and generate clouds of spores, then Summon would be the way to go, as jguy suggested. His suggestion does reveal an oddity about the Summon power, which is that even though you don't need many power points for a spore-generating 'shroom, you need the full 150-point-monster Summon 10 to get a PL-appropriate cloud. To avoid that, I'd buy enough ranks of normal Summon to afford the critter, than enough ranks of Summon, Limited to increasing PL to hit PL 10.

Maybe, I'm not reading that right but Summon brings forth a creature that isn't more expensive that the number of points that Summon provides. You don't need 10 ranks of Summon to get a PL10 summoned creature, but you do need 10 ranks to get 150 points to work with. You could dump all 150 points into a PL20 attacking creature if you really wanted. To just get a PL appropriate attack out of it though all you need is enough points to bring the creature's attacks up to whatever PL you want to use.

[jguy]

Grod: Fair enough. I will simply need to make sure I do not abuse arrays. I feel like I can turn the Fungal Biology into an array and free up some points there. Mostly they will be going into skills and equipment because I'd like to make her a bit more rounded. I am now thinking of exchanging immortality for regeneration but putting the caveat of "Must be in a place that is amicable to fungal life" and "Is suppressed by fire for X rounds" I don't know how to choose X though. This would give the DM a say in when I can regenerate and gives it a big common weakness.

[ChaosArchon]

Hey since this seems like the M&M official thread in GiTP I have a few questions since I'm considering picking it up and playing at least one game in PbP on the forums so with-out-further a-do: 1) Which edition would you advise picking up and which splat books (f those exist for M&M) would you recommend 2) actually I think that's all I have right now... hmm alright then just one question ladies and gents.

[Beleriphon]

Hey since this seems like the M&M official thread in GiTP I have a few questions since I'm considering picking it up and playing at least one game in PbP on the forums so with-out-further a-do: 1) Which edition would you advise picking up and which splat books (f those exist for M&M) would you recommend 2) actually I think that's all I have right now... hmm alright then just one question ladies and gents.

Get Third Edition. Its the currently supported one and of excellent quality. Most of the Second Edition splat books are excellent as well, my personal favourites include Hero High and Golden Age.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Maybe, I'm not reading that right but Summon brings forth a creature that isn't more expensive that the number of points that Summon provides. You don't need 10 ranks of Summon to get a PL10 summoned creature, but you do need 10 ranks to get 150 points to work with. You could dump all 150 points into a PL20 attacking creature if you really wanted. To just get a PL appropriate attack out of it though all you need is enough points to bring the creature's attacks up to whatever PL you want to use.

The Summoning Power Profile proposes that as an alternate method, but by the book, "A summoned minion is limited to a Power Level equal to the rank of the Summon effect used to create it." (First paragraph)

Hey since this seems like the M&M official thread in GiTP I have a few questions since I'm considering picking it up and playing at least one game in PbP on the forums so with-out-further a-do: 1) Which edition would you advise picking up and which splat books (f those exist for M&M) would you recommend 2) actually I think that's all I have right now... hmm alright then just one question ladies and gents.

1. I only know 3e, which is the one we've been talking about here. But I do love it. And if nothing else, large parts of it are free online. There aren't a super-lot of splatbooks for it at the moment, but pretty much all the important material is in the Hero's Handbook-- this isn't like D&D where each splatbook adds new feats and spells and things. (A few of the Power Profiles do, but that's pretty rare.) After that, I'd drop a dollar on whatever Power Profile best fits the character you're trying to make, as they're great learning tools. But beyond that, you're probably fine.

[jguy]

I have a monster in mind that is part brute and part wizard. He has 8 arms, each with a mouth. Thematically each mouth can cast an incantation simultaneously. Is there anyway of simulating that or should I drop that aspect for balance sake? Also each mouth is to have a tongue that is about 10-15 feet in length. Do I have to apply reach to each extra limb or is there way to do it once and have each limb get it?