Mutants & Masterminds III: How to build some powers?

[Scowling Dragon]

#1: Depends more on the power itself. Need more specifics
#2: Again depends on the power. Id say more limitation, and if you need more inspiration look at heroes with time limits on their powers.

[Sith_Happens]

This is specifically with regards to Celestial Magic from Fairy Tail, which involves using magic keys to summon otherworldly spirits with whom you've made contracts and having them fight for you (so a Summon effect). While you need a spirit's key in order to summon it, to my knowledge losing a key that you've just used doesn't de-summon the spirit. In fact, the anime (I don't know about the manga) is extremely inconsistent on whether you still even have a given key after using it or if it disappears until the spirit returns from whence it came.

As for the contract that must be established with a spirit in order to summon it (without which its key is useless), one of the common stipulations is that the spirit can only be summoned on certain days of the week (as they actually have lives back in their own world).

[Lord Raziere]

This is specifically with regards to Celestial Magic from Fairy Tail, which involves using magic keys to summon otherworldly spirits with whom you've made contracts and having them fight for you (so a Summon effect). While you need a spirit's key in order to summon it, to my knowledge losing a key that you've just used doesn't de-summon the spirit. In fact, the anime (I don't know about the manga) is extremely inconsistent on whether you still even have a given key after using it or if it disappears until the spirit returns from whence it came.

As for the contract that must be established with a spirit in order to summon it (without which its key is useless), one of the common stipulations is that the spirit can only be summoned on certain days of the week (as they actually have lives back in their own world).

Hm. well since the Key is an item that you use, I'd just say put the Removable modifier on it and call it a day. they're a power attached to an item and that means Removable, don't think about it too much. M&M is not granular enough to determine a strange thing like what you just talked about, and Removable fits enough. Lucy uses them as items that summon things, she is capable of losing these items, thats all you need for M&M.

As for the contract, I'd just say put Limited modifier set to Only Certain Days of the Week on it. Its a limitation specific to the power, so it works.

complications, I think are generally supposed to be things that are general about the character, while a flaw is only supposed to be for a specific power. unless those summonings are central to the character that it affects them in a major way when activated, I would just go with that flaw I made.

that and the upshot of having both of these flaws means a 20 point power only costs 8 points by my math- no wonder Lucy can summon so many of them, to her these summoning powers are CHEAP.

[Beleriphon]

Question #1: If a device is easily removable, but only when not in use, does it still qualify for the flaw? What about if it's still easily removable while in use, but removing it doesn't necessarily end its effect (just keeps it from being reactivated if or when it would need to be)?

No, probably not. As it stands easily removable means it can be removed via disarm in combat. It sounds like you have a Removable flaw there, which requires the character to be incapacitated in some way.

Question #2: If a power is only usable on certain days of the week, is that better handled as a flaw or a complication?

Probably a complication.

[Sith_Happens]

It sounds like you have a Removable flaw there, which requires the character to be incapacitated in some way.

Not exactly. The specific case I'm thinking of is technically an array of devices, such that any of the ones not currently active is Easily Removable.

Maybe I could houserule an intermediate (3/10 cost) tier of Removable? Or just make it a complication, but as Raziere mentioned it's more or less expected that sufficiently advanced users of the power in question can maintain two summons at once with no noticeable loss in the strength of either, which is near-unaffordable as a player character without flaws (Heroic + Multiple Minions 1 + Variable Type? Good luck with that).

Probably a complication.

Probably easier on me that way, instead of actually having to keep track of the day of the week I can just periodically say "Sorry, it's not the right day to use that key, have a hero point."

[Scowling Dragon]

Id think maybe your equipment removal would also work better as a complication as well.

Because its not going to matter 99% of the time anyway.

[Anlashok]

Don't forget, there's no usage limit on anything.

That's one thing I've struggled with. Characters who have use limited/emergency type powers. Just slapping Limited on it seems too easy.


A power that does two things at once is one that's been leaving me scratching my head too. I know "Linked" covers this, but a 0 point modifier to be able to double up on the value of an action makes me think I'm reading something wrong.

[Lord Raziere]

A power that does two things at once is one that's been leaving me scratching my head too. I know "Linked" covers this, but a 0 point modifier to be able to double up on the value of an action makes me think I'm reading something wrong.

Well the deal with that is....you can't really UNlink it once you've linked it. You can't do only one thing or another, you always have to do both at the same. sure you may scratch your head and go "but whats the downside of being able to use both Damage and Affliction at the same time?" well if you want to only Afflict someone with something nonlethal, that can be problematic because the Damage could kill them....and of course if you say, link say Morph and Damage, every time you attack you also have to shapeshift, you can't tiptoe your way around that....and every time you want to shapeshift, you have to attack something.

at least thats my interpretation of it.

[Scowling Dragon]

In addition at worst you can link a bunch of afflictions together, but you already kinda could with extra Affliction.

The systems kinda simple so its hard to break.

[The_Snark]

A power that does two things at once is one that's been leaving me scratching my head too. I know "Linked" covers this, but a 0 point modifier to be able to double up on the value of an action makes me think I'm reading something wrong.

The modifier is 0 points, but Linked powers still tend to be very expensive, because you have to pay the full cost for both attack powers (no Alternate Power discounts). Ranged Damage linked to Ranged Affliction is 4 points/rank, which is a substantial investment. For the same price, you could buy a Ranged Multiattack Damage with Secondary Effect, which is probably just as powerful (if not more so). The classic Disintegrate (Ranged Weaken Toughness (affects objects) linked to Ranged damage) is a very powerful single-target attack, but you could buy a perception-range selective area attack at the same price.

[Sith_Happens]

That's one thing I've struggled with. Characters who have use limited/emergency type powers. Just slapping Limited on it seems too easy.

There's a sidebar that describes "limited uses" as an alternative use of the Unreliable flaw.

[jguy]

Do linked things need to be equal? Like can I have a strength based damage 9 linked with an affliction rank 13? Sort of like a taser punch.

[Lord Raziere]

nothing really stopping you from doing that, no. Don't see why not.

[Sith_Happens]

I've updated the campaign thread I mentioned last page with a houserule list and some general GMing questions. Input appreciated (posted over there rather than here, of course).

I also might start building RWBY characters soon as an exercise in getting used to HeroLab, though those will probably be posted in the RWBY thread in Media Discussions.

[Scowling Dragon]

Question:

Lets say my robot character wanted to shapeshift into a Jet (Using Variable):

Spoiler: Does this look good?

Show

Jet Form:
Growth 10 (Permanent)
Morph 1 (Form of Plane, Feature: Internal Area)
Flight 8 (Continuous, Wings) Immunity 10(Life Support, Affects only Others)
Reduced Agility -2
Total: 50

What if he wanted to become an exoskeleton for somebody else? How would that work? Like how do the defences work that way?

[Sith_Happens]

What if he wanted to become an exoskeleton for somebody else? How would that work? Like how do the defences work that way?

Who's in control?

[Scowling Dragon]

Some other person. As in the person wearing teh suit aka me.

[Spamotron]

I'm working on a character concept that I could use some help with. I call it "punch anybody," a mystical martial artist who's punches hit a foe in their metaphysical concept allowing him to harm things like intangible spirits and invulnerable supers. The problem is that I don't have enough experience with the system to know if I can make the concept fair and table-playable. The ability to bypass defenses is so easy to break after all.

My initial idea is Nullify with the Broad extra (defensive powers) linked to an attack power.

[Sith_Happens]

Some other person. As in the person wearing teh suit aka me.

Variable or Metamorph into a bunch of Enhanced Trait and Protection effects with Affects Only Others, along with any other beneficial effects you'd like your wearer to have (like Life Support), and enough Reduced Strength and Agility to drop both to -5 (so that you're no longer capable of physically acting on your own). Enabling your wearer to use whatever weapons systems you might have is a bit sketchier, the only power-based way I can think of to grant attack options to others is with Variable (Affects Others). The other option is asking your GM to let you be controlled according to the Mecha rules.

I'm working on a character concept that I could use some help with. I call it "punch anybody," a mystical martial artist who's punches hit a foe in their metaphysical concept allowing him to harm things like intangible spirits and invulnerable supers. The problem is that I don't have enough experience with the system to know if I can make the concept fair and table-playable. The ability to bypass defenses is so easy to break after all.

Just put Alternate Resistance: Will on all your attacks and you're probably done. "Invulnerability" generally means Impervious Toughness or Immunity: Toughness, which are both irrelevant to attacks resisted by any other defense. The built-in immunities from Insubstantial, meanwhile, are descriptor-based, so any attack not described as Physical or Energy bypasses them by default.

[The_Snark]

Variable or Metamorph into a bunch of Enhanced Trait and Protection effects with Affects Only Others, along with any other beneficial effects you'd like your wearer to have (like Life Support), and enough Reduced Strength and Agility to drop both to -5 (so that you're no longer capable of physically acting on your own). Enabling your wearer to use whatever weapons systems you might have is a bit sketchier, the only power-based way I can think of to grant attack options to others is with Variable (Affects Others). The other option is asking your GM to let you be controlled according to the Mecha rules.

It's worth noting that while this is how to do it in theory, it doesn't work very well in practice, on account of PL caps. You can transform into a suit to give somebody else lots of Enhanced Toughness, but their defenses can't take them over the usual cap, and most PCs and important NPCs will have their defenses maxed out (or close enough) already. Likewise for weapons; your group's big burly superhero is almost certainly doing as much damage as they can, and so your axe-form won't be able to increase their damage any.

You can use this to expand your allies' capabilities, e.g. giving things like Flight, Life Support or Radar to people who don't normally have those things, or turning into a weapon that adds extras instead of just Strength-based damage (Penetrating, Reach, a Linked Affliction of some sort, that kind of thing). But it's tricky to suggest exactly what you should take in those cases - ideally you'd build your character around the rest of the group, looking to cover weak spots and avoid redundancy. If everyone else has Flight, your jetpack form will not be terribly useful most of the time...

Just put Alternate Resistance: Will on all your attacks and you're probably done. "Invulnerability" generally means Impervious Toughness or Immunity: Toughness, which are both irrelevant to attacks resisted by any other defense. The built-in immunities from Insubstantial, meanwhile, are descriptor-based, so any attack not described as Physical or Energy bypasses them by default.

Alternatively, take Affects Insubstantial and... either Penetrating, or Alternate Resistance (Dodge).

[Sith_Happens]

It's worth noting that while this is how to do it in theory, it doesn't work very well in practice, on account of PL caps. You can transform into a suit to give somebody else lots of Enhanced Toughness, but their defenses can't take them over the usual cap, and most PCs and important NPCs will have their defenses maxed out (or close enough) already. Likewise for weapons; your group's big burly superhero is almost certainly doing as much damage as they can, and so your axe-form won't be able to increase their damage any.

It's great for escort/bodyguard missions, on the other hand. "Suit up, Mr. President!"

Alternatively, take Affects Insubstantial and... either Penetrating, or Alternate Resistance (Dodge).

The way I see it, when you're getting punched in the metaphysical essence of your being, the way to be less hurt by it is to have a stronger/more resilient sense of self. Which at least in many cases is more or less what your Will defense is.

[The_Snark]

It's great for escort/bodyguard missions, on the other hand. "Suit up, Mr. President!"

True. And if you're using Metamorph or something, the option is pretty cheap - I just wanted to warn against designing your character entirely around boosting the other characters.

The way I see it, when you're getting punched in the metaphysical essence of your being, the way to be less hurt by it is to have a stronger/more resilient sense of self. Which at least in many cases is more or less what your Will defense is.

That's certainly one way to handle it, yeah. Alternate Resistance (Dodge) applied to Damage would imply more "my attacks can cut through absolutely anything, the only way to avoid getting hurt is to get out of the way", which may not be exactly what Spamotron is going for, but it's an option.

[Scowling Dragon]

Im using-THE DREADED VARIABLE POWER (Gasp!). So I wanted to limit myself by mainly helping others. Granting flight, protection and such.

The most important thing is though that if my wearer got hit wearing me wouldn't it hurt me first?

[Spamotron]

Thanks, Sith Happens, The Snark either of those sound like they could work quite well.

[Sith_Happens]

The most important thing is though that if my wearer got hit wearing me wouldn't it hurt me first?

Nope, that's not how armor works.

[The_Snark]

The most important thing is though that if my wearer got hit wearing me wouldn't it hurt me first?

Nope, that's not how armor works.

Indeed. That said, if you really want to do this, check out the Interpose advantage - it's not quite the same thing, but provides a good balance point for some kind of custom power or Feature that lets you take the hits.

[squiggit]

Would you guys say the "debilitated" condition is too strong? DM wants me to stop afflicting things because he feels once I land that -5 the fight's over, but I wanted other thoughts... Not exactly the right thread but it's the only M&M one here...

more on topic: Tips on emulating temporary buffs/emergency power ups?

[Sith_Happens]

Indeed. That said, if you really want to do this, check out the Interpose advantage - it's not quite the same thing, but provides a good balance point for some kind of custom power or Feature that lets you take the hits.

Or even just have Interpose in your armor form and say that once per round you're re-shaping yourself on the fly to better take the brunt of a hit.

[Scowling Dragon]

General question: Does the Deception bonus from morph allow one to go over the max skill limit of the series? I know it doesn't specify but I find it peculiar because its just such a high bonus that your own skills don't matter until you go into the high 20s of power level.

[smuchmuch]

It's up to the Dm in those case.
Personaly as a Dm i'd probaly allow it since that bous only applies to one and only one thing (namely looking like what you want).