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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Silkenfist's Avatar

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    Default [OOTS Showdown] The Feedback Thread

    Ladies and Gentlemen: I announce the end of OOTS Showdown #1. El Jaspero defeated his opponents in 16 rounds of grand melee fight. Check out the entire fight (and the current rules/character set HERE!

    What is this thread about? In the first instance of OOTS Showdown, several flaws had become evident. Before I start the next instance, I will try to close all gaps and loopholes. Also, I would like to get your general ideas on how to improve the game.
    The Feedback Thread has two stages. During stage one, I want to collect general idea about the game, while the second step is dedicated to the specific characters and their balance.

    We are now going to start debating the general strucutre of the game. Please withhold your ideas for the character for a little while. Instead, I would like to hear your opinions on questions like these?


    General:
    - Which general changes could/should be made to the format?
    - How can the registration/character distribution process be improved?
    - Which is the ideal duration for one round?
    - How shall inactivity be handled during the next games?
    - Which long-term incentives should be implemented?

    Characters:
    - Which is more important in a character? Balance or Realism?
    - Which kinds of abilities (f.e. Action Stealing, Damage Reduction, Action Controlling) shall be toned down, which ones shall be increased? And are there general abilities, you can think of, that are not used yet?
    - How long shall an entire game be? Should the HP of the characters be enhanced/lowered to make the entire game quicker/slower?
    - The characters differentiate in starting HP and Initiative modifier. Should these differences be increased or decreased?


    Also, I will register any suggestions not related to the questions above. Just wanted to give you some guidelines, where improvement can be seeked.

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    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: [OOTS Showdown] The Feedback Thread

    I think Shojo should a direct damage attack. Like maybe it gets stronger with each non-lawful character who dies. Maybe like this?

    Unpopular decision (Or Meatloaf Day)
    Deals 1 base damage. For every 2 non-lawful characters killed it adds 1 base damage

    edit: Didn't read the front post (I really should start))
    In my defense I think Shojo and Celia unbalance the game. I also think Thog and Redcloak aren't fun to play. I think some abilities make characters not very fun as you don't do anythinh
    (Minion and Loyalty) I think as a general rule each character should get to choose 4 of 6 abilities so you still have some control over your character's powers. Originally I wasn't happy with Shojo but I started getting smarter with him. I would have pick V or Roy for their power though. SO maybe if we got to choose our powers some people might not feel like they got the short end of the stick.
    Last edited by Raistlin1040; 2007-02-07 at 06:31 PM.
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    Default Re: [OOTS Showdown] The Feedback Thread

    I think balance takes a backseat to realism. Pompey should not be besting Roy 50% of the time.

    For long term incentives, I think we should get a good avatarist to make prize images that could be placed in sigs, depicting the victor and the character with which they won.

    Also, Elan should have only +4 to init.
    Last edited by heretic; 2007-02-07 at 06:28 PM.

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    Default Re: [OOTS Showdown] The Feedback Thread

    I think balance is more important than realism. No one will want to play characters that don't have a chance at winning.

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    Default Re: [OOTS Showdown] The Feedback Thread

    I agree with Alarra there. Each character should have a shot.
    Quote Originally Posted by YPU View Post
    Real life doesn’t happen, it surprises you like a trap of a CR way above your level.

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    Default Re: [OOTS Showdown] The Feedback Thread

    Perhaps a demon roach character(s) could be introduced. They have a smiley even...

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    Default Re: [OOTS Showdown] The Feedback Thread

    or maybe a Hinjo character....

    i enjoyed playing with V, even if the attacks were too predictable, i would've survived one more round if not for the flu...


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    Default Re: [OOTS Showdown] The Feedback Thread

    Well, considering Miko has fallen, her abilities should change. Perhaps if you gave her a 'Blinded by Arrogance' ability that makes her have to focus solely on one GOOD character....

    How about an Oracle character? Or even the lawyers...... Flumphs work as well!
    Last edited by Eldritch Knight; 2007-02-07 at 06:46 PM.

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    Default Re: [OOTS Showdown] The Feedback Thread

    I also think...based purely on the manner in which the good and evil squared off, that it would be a good idea to balance the numbers in each alignment. Add in the rest of the linear guild maybe.

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    Default Re: [OOTS Showdown] The Feedback Thread


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    Quote Originally Posted by YPU View Post
    Real life doesn’t happen, it surprises you like a trap of a CR way above your level.

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    Default Re: [OOTS Showdown] The Feedback Thread

    Oooo!!!

    Just had a great idea.

    Each new showdown could feature a different 'guest' monster, played by the winner of the last round. The monster would be overpowered a bit, but would grant a reward to the character who kills them. (In theory, the lesser characters would gang up to take out the big guy) Also, the guest may not win, so if they do (unlikely) then second place is the winner.

    This also doubles as a handicap, because the winner of the last round coudn't win twice in a row, thus giving rookies the advantage.

    The guest monster would be chosen by Silkenfist, with the only restrictions being that they must have been killed already in the comic.
    Last edited by heretic; 2007-02-07 at 07:09 PM.

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    Default Re: [OOTS Showdown] The Feedback Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Silkenfist View Post
    General:
    - Which general changes could/should be made to the format?
    - How can the registration/character distribution process be improved?
    - Which is the ideal duration for one round?
    - How shall inactivity be handled during the next games?
    - Which long-term incentives should be implemented?
    1. The format itself is pretty sound. It plays like a battle in D&D, which it should, considering the source.
    2. Characters should be given out at a first come, first serve basis, and everyone should be informed what characters are left, so they can decide whether they want one of the ones that are left or if they'd rather not play.
    3. I'd say 2 days.
    4. I liked the Inactivity Flu, despite the fact that that was what got me.
    5. I agree with the idea of a sig icon or picture of some kind.

    My ideas about characters later...
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    Default Re: [OOTS Showdown] The Feedback Thread

    What I would like....

    Double actions. Make each turn even more crazy. A consecutive rise in HP.

    Maybe only for specific turns.(Or as Death conditions perhaps)


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    Default Re: [OOTS Showdown] The Feedback Thread

    Here's an example of my guest appearence idea.



    (Yes, I annoyingly refer to Trigak in the plural)

    Trigak: Neutral Evil, 28 HP, Initiative -1
    Chomp: Deals Six damage to any target character.
    Not a 'Playa' (passive): Trigak are not easily distracted. They may always act in a round, even if they normally would be prevented from doing so.
    Breath Weapon: Deals four damage to a target character and four damage to each of two other randomly selected characters.
    Fly Away!: Trigak may not be attacked or targeted for the remainer of the round. Any attacks resolved before Trigak acts are conducted normally.
    Guest Appearence: Trigak may not win. If they are the last characters standing, then the second place character wins.
    Reward: The killer of Trigak gains 10 HP in treasure and all of their attacks henceforth deal an additional one damage.
    Last edited by heretic; 2007-02-07 at 07:17 PM.

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    Default Re: [OOTS Showdown] The Feedback Thread

    Celia's Action Stealing ability needs to be toned down. For example, adding a time-limit to how long each stolen ability lasts (say 5 rounds) or having a maximum amount of abilities stolen (like 2.) Otherwise, anyone who knows how to play Celia could win fairly quickly. Soul-Hidey Place > Feinged > MitD DR5.

    Belkar's "Has to attack things with 2hp or less" ability makes Pompey's Summon completel useless while he is alive, since Belkar has to kill them. It's basically trading an action of yours for an action of his and neither accomplishes anything.

    Shojo's useless survival shows that every character needs at least 1 Direct damage attack.

    The previously mentioned idea about giving 6 attacks and selecting 4 is a very good one. Would add an element of strategy to planning as well.

    Two-Three days seems a good time slot for one round. Plenty of time for thought, mischief, and planning, while not being so long that a game would take months to finish.

    Balance is more important. It's no fun to play if you don't have a chance.

    Inactivity Flu is a good idea, stick with it.

    As to long term incentives, maybe make something fitting to the playstyle, a character who kills lets say 4 opponents with direct damage would get a damage boost, one who mind-controls 4 seperate people can control 2 at once. These could be 1-use buffs or constant effects.

    As another form of "General" abilities, maybe avoidance. For example, Invisibility Sphere. Would take one round to cast, then make you untargetable for the next 2 rounds. Varsuvius could get her "3.14 Foot Diameter Invisibility Sphere" which lets other chosen members to also be invisible, except they would all have to target the same opponent.

    The Hp/Inititive modfiers should be disparate, but there should be some kind of balancer. Low HP characters should have good Initiatives and vica versa. The last game could have gone a lot different if Celia had gone before Sabine a few times :P

    Well, that's basically my opinion on all your given questions, hope signups for the next round are soon, I'd like a shot.

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    Default Re: [OOTS Showdown] The Feedback Thread

    I'd just like to say w00t! Someone liked my get-6-pick-4 idea!
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    Default Re: [OOTS Showdown] The Feedback Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by heretic View Post
    Here's an example of my guest appearence idea.



    (Yes, I annoyingly refer to Trigak in the plural)

    Trigak: Neutral Evil, 28 HP, Initiative -1
    Chomp: Deals Six damage to any target character.
    Not a 'Playa' (passive): Trigak are not easily distracted. They may always act in a round, even if they normally would be prevented from doing so.
    Breath Weapon: Deals four damage to a target character and four damage to each of two other randomly selected characters.
    Fly Away!: Trigak may not be attacked or targeted for the remainer of the round. Any attacks resolved before Trigak acts are conducted normally.
    Guest Appearence: Trigak may not win. If they are the last characters standing, then the second place character wins.
    Reward: The killer of Trigak gains 10 HP in treasure and all of their attacks henceforth deal an additional one damage.

    I think instead of hitting for 6, Trigak should be able to deal say 5 HP of damage divided among up to 3 victims, and that breath weapon is far too powerful too. Also, a 10 HP reward for killing Trigak is HUGE, 3 is much more reasonable. Otherwise it's a fun idea.


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    Default Re: [OOTS Showdown] The Feedback Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by El Jaspero, the Pirate King View Post
    I think instead of hitting for 6, Trigak should be able to deal say 5 HP of damage divided among up to 3 victims, and that breath weapon is far too powerful too. Also, a 10 HP reward for killing Trigak is HUGE, 3 is much more reasonable. Otherwise it's a fun idea.
    Well noted. I deliberately designed him as overpowered. A 3 HP reward makes sense, but only if Haley's Mine Mine Mine is toned down as well.

    About the 25 or 6 to 4 idea: I like it! I was thinking of a bunch of abilities that could have been created and this also makes the pregame more interesting.

    Long-term incentives: I like the idea. It would unbalance the game in favor of characters that have been successful, but like I said before, I could care less about balace. The characters would also seem more dynamic if they change in between rounds, giving each stage of The Showdown a different flavor.

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    Default Re: [OOTS Showdown] The Feedback Thread

    I also think that Celia's Ability stealing ability is too overpowered.
    Suggestions for toning it down
    - only allow stealing of one ability at a time. Stealing a new ability replaces the old one that was stolen.
    - Have a "cooldown" period so that once it is used, it can't be used again for 3-4 rounds afterwards

    I think Haley is a little overpowered. Her high initiative means she can almost always sneak attack. Mine mine mine means she heals HP at a decent rate of knots. She effectively at least doubled her hitpoints in the course of the game.

    You noted that it very much turned into a war against evil. Not sure you can do much about that.
    The OOTSers have an extra advantage while Roy is alive (+1 to everything)
    I think all the OOTSers current attacks should be reduced by 1.
    ie rather than being "super" while Roy is alive, they are "lesser" with Roy dead.
    Maybe you could have a similar setup with the Linear Guild and Nale?
    And potentially also Xykon and Lord Shojo?

    Inactivity flu was good. Keeps an incentive to be in the game.
    More thoughts coming later maybe...
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    Default Re: [OOTS Showdown] The Feedback Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by evnafets View Post
    I also think that Celia's Ability stealing ability is too overpowered.
    Suggestions for toning it down
    - only allow stealing of one ability at a time. Stealing a new ability replaces the old one that was stolen.
    - Have a "cooldown" period so that once it is used, it can't be used again for 3-4 rounds afterwards

    I say let her steal active powers only, but as many as she wants. Then she can build up a huge range of possibilities, but can only use 1 each round.

    As for Shojo, I do think he should be able to negatively affect non-lawful characters, but it should be in an indirect way. Perhaps an Arrest Warrant? Shojo can issue an arrest warrant. That character, hampered by the Sapphire Guard, acts on 0 for the next 2 rounds.

    Whoops, thats character stuff. Ok, some general:
    Balance is very important. No problem with differing inits and HPs, but they should all be balanced out. So powerful abilities go with low HP & init. Thats obviously happening already, as with MITD (high DR, low HP; big attack, restricted).

    Action stealing is a very powerful ability. Overpowered? not sure yet - give me a char with Charm and watch me abuse it :D Then decide.

    There are very few defensive abilities that would reduce or avoid attacks. (ie Defensive Stance: reduces all attacks against you by 1)
    Last edited by Woolysock; 2007-02-08 at 02:07 AM.
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    Default Re: [OOTS Showdown] The Feedback Thread

    To my knowledge, Trigak and The Oracle were both already made before OOTS Showdown officially started. They weren't in the recent round because they weren't needed.

    As for Miko, I reckon we should have both Paladin Miko and Fallen Miko. It would make no sense, but to me that's part of the fun. There have been plenty of things that don't make sense, such as Miko, Pompey, and Roy allying together (We were sort-of using Roy as a puppet, but it still counts ).

    And Celia should definitely have her ability steal weakened. DR 5/Feigned Insanity/Healing Hands/Greataxe Slash=overpowered.
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    Default Re: [OOTS Showdown] The Feedback Thread

    heres anouther positive vote for the pick-4-out-of-6-abilities idea.
    Maybe this can be used to better keep the balance? like give the more powerful characters a 3-out-of-4 choice and the less powerful characters a 5-out-of-8 choice?

    Also, making a map and giving every character a position and a move action would certainly add an extra dimension to the game ( litterly :P). Then we could futher finetune the character balance and diversity with different move rates, area-of-effect abilities and movement related skills.

    Of course, this would make running the game a lot complexer for the GM, but arent there other complexer play-by-post games out there, run by more than one GM?

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    Default Re: [OOTS Showdown] The Feedback Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkLightDragon View Post
    And Celia should definitely have her ability steal weakened. DR 5/Feigned Insanity/Healing Hands/Greataxe Slash=overpowered.
    You spend the first four rounds doing these:

    Steal Feigned Insanity / Steal DR 5 / Steal DR 2 / Steal Xykon's soul-hidey-place.

    Then steal a nice, damaging ability and you win.

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    Default Re: [OOTS Showdown] The Feedback Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Khantalas View Post
    You spend the first four rounds doing these:

    Steal Feigned Insanity / Steal DR 5 / Steal DR 2 / Steal Xykon's soul-hidey-place.

    Then steal a nice, damaging ability and you win.
    Well, kinda. It would be smarter to steal Soul-Hidey-place first, since anyone who read last game's transcript will probably attempt to kill Celia first, and if you start this combo, after you get one ability, everyone else will pretty much gang-beat you to death.

    The "war against evil' thing is another good point. Just as Good has some abilities which only work on evil, Evil should get some which work on Good. Give Redcloak Unholy Blight, for example. The Vs. Evil attacks are amazing (especially with Miko. 7 damage a round with Focused Enemy thing), so evil should have it's own abilities.

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    Default Re: [OOTS Showdown] The Feedback Thread

    I didn't say in that order.

    Though the earlier you get Feigned Insanity, the better.

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    Default Re: [OOTS Showdown] The Feedback Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Silkenfist View Post
    Characters:
    - Which is more important in a character? Balance or Realism?
    - Which kinds of abilities (f.e. Action Stealing, Damage Reduction, Action Controlling) shall be toned down, which ones shall be increased? And are there general abilities, you can think of, that are not used yet?
    - How long shall an entire game be? Should the HP of the characters be enhanced/lowered to make the entire game quicker/slower?
    - The characters differentiate in starting HP and Initiative modifier. Should these differences be increased or decreased?
    1. Balance. Every character should have an equal chance of winning.
    2. One way to insure no ability is too powerful is to make sure some of the characters are immune to that ability. Like, say, their actions can't be stolen or they can't be controlled by characters of a certain alignment or gender, or that their damage reduction is useless against certain kinds of damage.
    3. That depends on how many characters there are. An average HP of 15 sounds reasonable to me.
    4. As long as it's all balanced out. For example, for every low there is a high, and vice versa.
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    Default Re: [OOTS Showdown] The Feedback Thread

    I thought Thog's normal attack should be toned down a bit because I might of done better.
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    Default Re: [OOTS Showdown] The Feedback Thread

    Well, pompey was fun to play, but all those females are rather cruel, and as stated the centipedes aren't that useful.

    Pompey isn't the worlds most strongest competitor as such I would have the disgust thing also make it that the females take off -1 or such if they chose to target him.
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    Default Re: [OOTS Showdown] The Feedback Thread

    Answering the first batch of suggestions. However, all suggestions for specific characters will be ignored until later (as I announced above. Don't hit me)


    Choosing 4 of 6 abilities: I like that idea. It could be a problem to find 6 flavored abilities for the smaller roles and many players will regret their choices later. However, it adds more skill to the game and gives the players more options. I will try to implement it.
    Still, one problem remains: The flaws. As it is now, some characters have flaws as 4th abilities to keep them from being overpowered. This would not be possible when 4 of 6 would be chosen. If we were to keep the flaws, they would have to be handled additionally.

    Remove Minionship abilities: Will be done most likely. If I keep them at all, there will be better exit clauses.

    Get an avatarist to make a sig image: Sounds great. My only concern is the fact, that I plan to do instances continuously. After many rounds, the image might lose its appeal. Maybe it could be prevented by customizing them to include the picture of the character with which the game has been won...

    Balance the alignment numbers: Will be done. Along both alignment axes, I plan to keep equal numbers (For male/female, I don't think I'm going to be able to).

    Guest Monster: Sorry, but this is a plan I am strongly opposed to. I like the idea of bringing in some monsters as characters. However, I don't like the idea of putting the previous winner in the spot of the NPC monster that is unable to win. The question is: What is the motivation to play, if you have absolutely no chance to win at all? The guest monster would do exactly the same thing as Lord Shojo did during the last rounds of #1. The player can't win himself but he can choose which of the other players to support.
    I won't do it for several reasons. I don't want the player of the guest monster to lose motivation and I don't want to put them in the dilemma to "choose a winner". (Especially, since some players might be better known and more popular than others)

    Distribute characters as "First come, first serve": Well, this would make things easy and transparent. However, I see some problems with that: We have players from several timezones and players with restricted internet access. I can't think of a fair "starting point" for signups; I will always favouring the players of a certain timezone and punishing those with daily internet access of less than 14 hours.
    As a compromise, I could use the old distribution system for the first day, then use "First come, first serve" for the rest of the signups. But then again, I would rather keep one stringent system.

    Auto-healing characters: I like the idea. It would give players a motivation to stay in the game, even if they are on the verge of death. I don't know yet how to fit it in flavorwise, but either as a special ability or a general rule, it could happen.

    Double actions: Possible, but I'm not sure about that. It would make the game more quick-paced and random. There will be action enhancers/additions, but they need one round and can be foreseen. I like that state better.

    Actions for specific turns only: Rather not, I think. I don't see the point to make the turns asymmetrical.

    Special events upon the death of one character: That's an idea, I like. They could act as flaws or positive abilities. If you find good ideas during the character debate later, I will add them.

    Advance characters based on the style of their player: I don't think it would end up well. I don't want to reward players for being one-trick ponies when they have better options available. Also, the set of abilities largely determines the "playing style", so there wouldn't be much variation to depend on the player.

    One-time abilities: Yes, can be done. If we have a set of 6 abilities, one of them could be ridiculously overpowered but not being able to be used more than once or twice (This would btw. be a possible way to handle Celia's new line of career)

    Avoidance/Resistance to certain attacks: Good idea. Will be done. For example, my current plan for Hinjo involves the ability to resist Charming/Action controlling effects. We can think of other examples later during character creation.

    Tie Initiative Modifier and HP to each other: I don't think, this is absolutely necessary. Low HP and low Ini modifier are some kind of flaws, that can both be compensated by making the character's abilities more powerful. Still, we can aim for some kind of negative correlation there.

    Change characters between rounds: Well, what do you think, we are doing right now? Seriously, I don't think we will ever have a constant set of characters. We will need to add/rephrase broken abilities, have different amounts of players and different choices of abilities, if we implement the 6 to 4 ratio.

    Make more "Leaders" like Roy: Can be done, I guess. However, it would most likely turn these groups against each other and I don't know how to bring Team Xykon or the Sapphire Guard to equal numbers with the OOTS.

    Make several versions of the same character: I don't see the problem with having "Paladin Miko" and "Fallen Miko" except the fact that latter one is not known enough. If a character undergoes a lot of development in the strip, it could translate into two different sets of abilities. Elan, f.e. could receive another set of abilities as dashing swordsmen. Miko could develop as a second character, too.

    More actions for weaker characters: The exact number of abilities doesn't have much to do with balancing strength. It has to do with balancing complexity. Also, the high power of one character can be handled by filling up the rest of their ability slots with highly specific abilities.

    Adding a map feature/enable area effects: It would add some complexity to the game, but this would not be my main concern. I am rather concerned about keeping the balance. There will be a large variance in the quality of your starting place. A lot of the game becomes decided before any one has actually acted. The only ways to add a map in a fair manner would be to make players choose their starting positions before giving them their characters (which would include a large random element) or have the players position themselves one after another along a given order (which would delay the game and add even more complexity). I like the idea of a map-based fighting game but I don't think the map can be well included in this one. Maybe keep it as an idea for a different forum game someday.

    Balance Good vs. Evil / Evil vs. Good: Will be done along with adjusting the numbers of characters on each side. For Male vs. Female, I will make sure that each gender has an equal number of positive/negative effects.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
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    NZ
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    Default Re: [OOTS Showdown] The Feedback Thread

    Just a things that came out of playing the last round (for adding to the FAQ) Questions I felt I needed to ask while playing.

    Attack vs Target
    Making clear the distinction between an "Attack" and "Targeting"
    Some abilities are triggered by one and not the other, and I didn't realise there was a difference for the first few rounds.

    Multiround affects if the casting player dies
    - controlling effects dispelled (Royal Decree, Charm etc)
    - damaging effects dispelled (Symbol of Pain)
    - containing effects (preventing actions) = remain (Annoy, Verbosity, Forcecage

    In the case of being controlled, if the controlling player dies before the targeted players initiative, then that player is free to choose an action as if they had never been controlled.

    Question: what about boosted attacks. eg if Elan uses Bard song, then promptly dies - would the target of bardsong still do double damage?

    New action suggestions:
    Dispel - can dispel one lasting positive/negative effect. Of limited use eg freeing someone from a forcecage so they can attack.
    Protection from Magic - protects a person from being targeted with certain actions. May want to specialise into Protection from Control / Protection from containment (those are the ones I have mainly in mind)
    Check out past werewolf games at the Unofficial GiantITP werewolf archive
    Also wasting too much time playing Evony right now.
    I don't wanna be a llama or a duck or a wabbit.
    I wanna be a POODLE!

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